This Team Needs Shawn Horcoff Or A Player Exactly Like Him

Jonathan Willis
April 22 2009 10:41AM

Horcoff goal

Shawn Horcoff’s a player that I have some difficulty discussing objectively. He’s a good player with a wide range of skills and an underrated offensive game; in point of fact, his offensive game has been of first-line quality since the lockout. Horcoff is also a player that the majority of the Oilers’ fan-base don’t seem to appreciate; despite the mess on left wing this season, “a real first line centre” is routinely listed as a major team need on the message boards and in the hallowed halls (if I’m not allowed to use hackneyed phrases than I’m quitting to work for the Sun) of the comment sections here.

The disdain for such a useful player drives me nuts; I’ve overreacted more than once while defending Horcoff’s performance, and as a result it’s difficult for me to be objective. So I’m not going to get hung up on what his exact value to the team is here. I’m going to use some basic logic to make a point about team needs.

First off, the ages of the current group of Oilers’ centre-men:

  • Shawn Horcoff: 30
  • Sam Gagner: 19
  • Andrew Cogliano: 21
  • Kyle Brodziak: 24

Other players used include Marc Pouliot (23), Liam Reddox (23) and Patrick O’Sullivan (24). In other words, there’s exactly one guy in the position over the age of 25. This isn’t rocket science; there’s a very young group here and Horcoff is the only player currently in the prime of his career.

Secondly, let’s look at professional experience. The current group by total number of NHL games played:

  • Shawn Horcoff: 560
  • Sam Gagner: 155
  • Andrew Cogliano: 164
  • Kyle Brodziak: 175

Other players used include Marc Pouliot (141GP), Liam Reddox (47GP) and Patrick O’Sullivan (207GP). If I wanted to really drive the point home I’d list the number of games these guys had managed prior to the start of this season; it’s not only a young group, it’s an inexperienced one.

Thirdly, let’s look at faceoff ability. Here’s the faceoff percentage of the various Oilers’ centres this past season:

  • Shawn Horcoff: 53.9% (1756 taken)
  • Sam Gagner: 42.0% (690 taken)
  • Andrew Cogliano: 37.2% (702 taken)
  • Kyle Brodziak: 51.6% (947 taken)

Other players used include Marc Pouliot (48.3% - 211 taken), Liam Reddox (44% - 25 taken) and Patrick O’Sullivan (41.4% - 99 taken).

Now we’re going to consider game situations. The fourth item is actually a question: with one minute left in the third period, with the goaltender pulled and the Oilers down by one, a faceoff occurs in the offensive zone – which player should be sent out to take the faceoff against the other team’s best defensive players? Looking at this roster, I only see one viable option. Cogliano, Gagner and O’Sullivan have some offensive ability, but Shawn Horcoff is the only player with both the offensive acumen and faceoff savvy to be on the ice in that position. He’s not a perfect player; obviously as a coach I’d rather see a player with more high-end offensive talent out there, but he’s the best option currently on the roster. If he were (hypothetically) to be dealt, this team would need a new player for those sorts of situations.

The fifth item for consideration is almost the opposite of that: with one minute left in the third period, with the opposition net empty and the Oilers up by one, a faceoff occurs in the defensive zone – which player should be sent out to take the faceoff against the other team’s best offensive players? Looking at this roster, I only see one viable option. Kyle Brodziak can win faceoffs, but he doesn’t have the defensive acumen to contain the best players in the game – Shawn Horcoff does. He’s the perfect player for the situation; if he were (again hypothetically) to be dealt, this team would need a new player for those sorts of situations.

So, looking at this list, what conclusion do we come to? I know the conclusion I come to – that if the Oilers dealt Shawn Horcoff, they’d need to find a player who has a) NHL experience, b) is in the prime of his career, c) is a faceoff expert, d) averages at least .75 points per game and e) can contain the best players in the NHL when the game is on the line. Maybe they could fill that hole with two players; they’re very unlikely to fill it with one.

This team is young down the middle; eventually Gagner, Cogliano and perhaps others can fill some of the roles that Shawn Horcoff now plays. For now though, he’s far too valuable to the team offensively and defensively to be traded except for a complete player of a higher caliber, and those sort of players aren’t exactly a dime a dozen. This isn’t a defense of Horcoff’s contract, an evaluation of his worth league-wide, or anything of the sort – it’s a practical look at the holes this roster has down the middle, and an explanation that if this team wants to develop it’s young centres (and it should!) they need players like Shawn Horcoff to carry the burden until those players are ready.

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Jonathan Willis is a freelance writer. He currently works for Oilers Nation, Sportsnet, the Edmonton Journal and Bleacher Report. He's co-written three books and worked for myriad websites, including Grantland, ESPN, The Score, and Hockey Prospectus. He was previously the founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue.
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#1 Chaz
April 22 2009, 10:50AM
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Amen JW, very well said. I hope fans will cheer for Horcs the player and not boo his salary. If you want to do that, Boo KLowe!

Also, wasn't Horcs faceoff total a team record? (Or was it a league record?) Either way, you can't really expect too much offensively out of a guy who absolutely carried your team in terms of faceoffs all year. Have patience with Horcs Oil Nation, even if his contract next year is ridiculous.

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#2 Chaz
April 22 2009, 10:51AM
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First comment!

*Does a fist pump, spills his coffee, then realizes first comments in the off season aren't the real thing...Meh....

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#3 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 10:52AM
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For some reason the grass is always greener.

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#4 J-Bird
April 22 2009, 10:59AM
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Does this comparison to the others on the team say much about Horcoff, or more about what managment has on the Oiler team?

Horcoff is valuable to this team, because of the make up of the team. The Oilers need him, because management is so useless at managing assets. I mean look at the centres, and it's pretty easy to understand why Horcoff is so valuable to the Oil.

Not Horcoff's fault at all. And the Oilers need him desperately due to how weak they are up the middle right now.

Anybody else sick of developing guys in the NHL instead of the AHL? Major league farm team here, and has been for far too long.

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#5 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:01AM
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I agree with you. He would make an excellent 3rd line centre. ;)

We've had this conversation. If he can become usefull offensively again then all the power to him. If, however, he puts up another 08/09 season then he isnt good enough for the Oilers to win.

The most important points I thought you brought up in our discussion of Horc was the fact that he was asked to be both the 1st line Offensive Centre AND the defensive specialist. IMO he is not talented enough to do both excellently on a full time basis. His ice time was too much for him some nights and his production was attrocious given his opportunities. He did not have a well defined role this last year and he suffered. Not all his fault, but I stand by my belief that if he puts up the same numbers as last year on the 1st line then he isnt good enough for the Oilers to win. I think Gagner will take his spot anyway.

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#6 Rob
April 22 2009, 11:02AM
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No one will ever shut up about that contract until Horc scores 100 points a year. Sad but true. The common thing most people do for a first line center is look at his point totals vs contract size, Horc will never impress in that situation but he's still a very valuable person on this team regardless.

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#7 Zamboni Driver
April 22 2009, 11:05AM
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Horcoff is a fine player, Jon, but really you shoot yourself directly in the foot with any argument when you say, "...if the Oilers dealt Horcoff..."

There is absolutely no chance in a million years (well actually three years at least) that they can trade him. The frustration that Horcoff bears (and deserves, taking a beating when he cranks out a miserable season like this one - it's part of the gig) is that his contract (Lowe's fault) has absolutely killed this team for at least 3 years.

You can quote any stat you want, do the calculus, get out your abacus....if you say that seven million for Horcoff is a good investment, the paint from your rose coloured glasses is toxic.

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#8 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:08AM
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J-Bird wrote:

Does this comparison to the others on the team say much about Horcoff, or more about what managment has on the Oiler team? Horcoff is valuable to this team, because of the make up of the team. The Oilers need him, because management is so useless at managing assets. I mean look at the centres, and it’s pretty easy to understand why Horcoff is so valuable to the Oil. Not Horcoff’s fault at all. And the Oilers need him desperately due to how weak they are up the middle right now. Anybody else sick of developing guys in the NHL instead of the AHL? Major league farm team here, and has been for far too long.

Probably a fair point, but with the reaction we've seen out of Oil country the last few years regarding Schremp, could you imagine the whining that would would take place if Gagner/Cogs were in the A .... and actually producing.

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#9 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:11AM
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Zamboni Driver wrote:

Horcoff is a fine player, Jon, but really you shoot yourself directly in the foot with any argument when you say, “…if the Oilers dealt Horcoff…” There is absolutely no chance in a million years (well actually three years at least) that they can trade him. The frustration that Horcoff bears (and deserves, taking a beating when he cranks out a miserable season like this one - it’s part of the gig) is that his contract (Lowe’s fault) has absolutely killed this team for at least 3 years. You can quote any stat you want, do the calculus, get out your abacus….if you say that seven million for Horcoff is a good investment, the paint from your rose coloured glasses is toxic.

*slaps forehead*

1 million more in cap space doesn't "save this team" anymore then his current contract kills it.

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#10 Sandra
April 22 2009, 11:14AM
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He is being paid "Super Star" money when really he is only a mucker/grinder, or a more offensive version of the great MacT, but not as good on the draw. So really what is he being paid that money for, Some one should ask Lowe.

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#11 Sandra
April 22 2009, 11:16AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Zamboni Driver wrote: Horcoff is a fine player, Jon, but really you shoot yourself directly in the foot with any argument when you say, “…if the Oilers dealt Horcoff…” There is absolutely no chance in a million years (well actually three years at least) that they can trade him. The frustration that Horcoff bears (and deserves, taking a beating when he cranks out a miserable season like this one - it’s part of the gig) is that his contract (Lowe’s fault) has absolutely killed this team for at least 3 years. You can quote any stat you want, do the calculus, get out your abacus….if you say that seven million for Horcoff is a good investment, the paint from your rose coloured glasses is toxic. *slaps forehead* 1 million more in cap space doesn’t “save this team” anymore then his current contract kills it.

maybe a Glencross contract?

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#12 Jonathan Willis
April 22 2009, 11:16AM
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Zamboni Driver wrote:

You can quote any stat you want, do the calculus, get out your abacus….if you say that seven million for Horcoff is a good investment, the paint from your rose coloured glasses is toxic.

From the article: "This isn’t a defense of Horcoff’s contract, an evaluation of his worth league-wide, or anything of the sort."

Love the straw-man argument though, thanks for that.

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#13 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:17AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

1 million more in cap space doesn’t “save this team” anymore then his current contract kills it.

That all depends on the Cap and optics. Penner at 3.25 million is probably movable. Penner at 4.25 isnt. So Horc at 5.5 might be unmovable if the cap falls whereas Horc at 4.5 might be traded.

It isnt the 1 million dollars that puts it over the edge. Its the 5.5 million locked up on a player whose value to the team might drop well below that number if he cant bounce back.

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#14 Quain
April 22 2009, 11:19AM
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On the plus side, we can all agree that at least Shawn Horcoff isn't Vincent Lecavalier.

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#15 Jonathan Willis
April 22 2009, 11:19AM
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Fun question: are faceoff percentage and age now considered statistical voodoo, or is it just anything I say?

Me: Wow, that was a good steak. I love a good medium-well steak. Random Person: Voodoo... voodoo. Me: Service was good too, I think I'll leave a 15% tip. Random Person: Voodoo! Math!!! *covers eyes, runs shrieking from the room with hands in front of face and both pointer fingers crossed*

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#16 Mike
April 22 2009, 11:20AM
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Horcoff is useful on this team but is NOT a first line center. Throw all the stats you want at me but his only offensive plays were the one-timers from the slot that Hemsky set up. Once teams recognized that, Horcoff created nothing!

Never mind the fact that Horcoff was having trouble hitting a barn door with his one-timer.

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#17 topshelf
April 22 2009, 11:26AM
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Quain wrote:

On the plus side, we can all agree that at least Shawn Horcoff isn’t Vincent Lecavalier.

That's blasphemy!

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#18 Rob
April 22 2009, 11:28AM
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Like I said, no one cares what Horc does, if he isn't scoring 100 points a year that contract will forever be a black eye in the eyes of many many fans. Throw all the stats and math you want at those people, without goals/assists that contract is unmovable and ugly.

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#19 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:33AM
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Sandra wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: Zamboni Driver wrote: Horcoff is a fine player, Jon, but really you shoot yourself directly in the foot with any argument when you say, “…if the Oilers dealt Horcoff…” There is absolutely no chance in a million years (well actually three years at least) that they can trade him. The frustration that Horcoff bears (and deserves, taking a beating when he cranks out a miserable season like this one - it’s part of the gig) is that his contract (Lowe’s fault) has absolutely killed this team for at least 3 years. You can quote any stat you want, do the calculus, get out your abacus….if you say that seven million for Horcoff is a good investment, the paint from your rose coloured glasses is toxic. *slaps forehead* 1 million more in cap space doesn’t “save this team” anymore then his current contract kills it. maybe a Glencross contract?

Really? An extra million would have kept GlenX? I guess they couldn't fit his 1.2 in with the 3 that we had in unused space.

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#20 Jonathan Willis
April 22 2009, 11:34AM
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Off topic, but I've done a profile of Lorne Molleken on my other site, a man who is rumoured to be in the running for Craig MacTavish's old job. Guaranteed to be 100% statistic free!

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#21 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:35AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

Fun question: are faceoff percentage and age now considered statistical voodoo, or is it just anything I say?

I picture you as that Villain from Live and Let Die, all decked out in Facepaint and chanting over your computer.

Also, if ive learnt anything from my time in 17th century Europe its that science is evil and its only use is to undermine the church. So get back into your tower with Galileo...pfft...Earth revolves around the sun, totaly absurd.

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#22 J-Bird
April 22 2009, 11:36AM
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I think in a year, perhaps 2, Gagner will be centre on the 1st line anyways. Right now though, the team desperately needs Horcoff because the cupboards are pretty much bare.

Man oh man, did K-Lowe make one heck of a mess here. We're heading into year 4 of the re build, and I think they're still quite a ways away yet.

They appologize to their market in Springfield and haven't once done that for the fans here. They sit and justify every stupid deal, every stupid contract. And they get the Sun and Journal to buy it too. If we were in Toronto or Montreal, Simmons, Cox, Fisher, et al would chew these guys up and spit them out.

While I think it was time for Mac to go, this year was not his fault. Scotty Bowman couldn't do it with this crew IMO.

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#23 Rick
April 22 2009, 11:36AM
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It's been said many times before but I think most people recognize how valuable Horcoff is and likely agree with everything you list.

However, in spite of all of that it is still fair to say that he isn't the guy you want playing in the role that he has been given.

As far as the contract goes, it shouldn't be off limits to comment on because the real problem that arises is that it makes it near impossible to bring in another high priced center to compliment Horcoff.

Horcoff at what he is worth would more easily allow for a great one two punch down the center but as it sits now it appears that in order to upgrade at center it needs to be in lieu of Horcoff.

And really that is the biggest shame of the situation.

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#24 Chris
April 22 2009, 11:38AM
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J-Bird wrote:

Anybody else sick of developing guys in the NHL instead of the AHL? Major league farm team here, and has been for far too long.

I'm going to actually agree with you on this. It's true that Coglino and Gagner have contributed. It's also probably true that they are a little further ahead in their development curve than they would have been if they had stayed in Jr and the AHL respectively... However, the Oilers wasted two of the first cheap years of a players NHL career cycle developing guys on the fly. Experienced, inexpensive, journeyman players could have easily replaced what these two brought to the table the last two seasons. These guys could be hitting the ground running THIS season, ready to contribute in a big way; an extra two years back of RFA status. (Or am I mistaken on this?) The Oilers management cashed in on these boys prematurely... and missed the playoffs anyway. Now, Gagner will just be hitting his stride when he is due for a huge salary increase... It's not just poor asset management, this is poor cap management.

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#25 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:40AM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: 1 million more in cap space doesn’t “save this team” anymore then his current contract kills it. That all depends on the Cap and optics. Penner at 3.25 million is probably movable. Penner at 4.25 isnt. So Horc at 5.5 might be unmovable if the cap falls whereas Horc at 4.5 might be traded. It isnt the 1 million dollars that puts it over the edge. Its the 5.5 million locked up on a player whose value to the team might drop well below that number if he cant bounce back.

We didn't sign these guys to trade them right away.

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#26 Greg MC
April 22 2009, 11:41AM
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Horcoff will be grossly overpaid over the duration of this contract, period.

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#27 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:42AM
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Rob wrote:

Like I said, no one cares what Horc does, if he isn’t scoring 100 points a year that contract will forever be a black eye in the eyes of many many fans. Throw all the stats and math you want at those people, without goals/assists that contract is unmovable and ugly.

Sadly people don't understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100.

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#28 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:44AM
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Rick wrote:

It’s been said many times before but I think most people recognize how valuable Horcoff is and likely agree with everything you list. However, in spite of all of that it is still fair to say that he isn’t the guy you want playing in the role that he has been given. As far as the contract goes, it shouldn’t be off limits to comment on because the real problem that arises is that it makes it near impossible to bring in another high priced center to compliment Horcoff. Horcoff at what he is worth would more easily allow for a great one two punch down the center but as it sits now it appears that in order to upgrade at center it needs to be in lieu of Horcoff. And really that is the biggest shame of the situation.

How many centers better then Horc are going to be up for FA in the next 3/4 years? 3? 4? You really think they would come here?

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#29 Chris
April 22 2009, 11:46AM
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Love him, or hate him, Horcoff was frustrating to watch this season... He fought the puck all year long. It was like he had two left hands... Numbers aside, it would be nice if the play didn't die on his stick so often.

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#30 J-Bird
April 22 2009, 11:48AM
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Chris wrote:

Love him, or hate him, Horcoff was frustrating to watch this season… He fought the puck all year long. It was like he had two left hands… Numbers aside, it would be nice if the play didn’t die on his stick so often.

Bang on. My buddy's and I call him "Spaz". It's like his visor has bi focals or something?

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#31 Greg MC
April 22 2009, 11:48AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Sadly people don’t understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100.

Next 4 years. 7.5, 6.5, 6.5, 6.0. That is paying for offence (high 80's, low 90's PPS).

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#32 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:48AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

We didn’t sign these guys to trade them right away.

of course not, but Horc was signed at his contract because he was a point per game before his injury. If he cant regain something close to that form then his actual value to the team compared to his Cap hit wont match up. No one signs guys to trade them. But if better options come up then assets must be moveable. Case in Point, Sean Avery. The Stars thought they would get 4 million in value from their asset, it backfired, then no one would trade for him because of his perceived value to cap value. Horc and Avery ARE NOT the same, but its an example of poor asset value assessment.

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#33 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:51AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Sadly people don’t understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100

Ok, Horc has scored 70+ points once in 8 seasons. His next highest point total was this year at 53. It doesnt bode well.

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#34 Kyle S
April 22 2009, 11:51AM
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Chaz wrote:

Also, wasn’t Horcs faceoff total a team record? (Or was it a league record?)

I wouldn't even say it is close to the league record.

Horcoff 08/09: 1756 Sakic 00/01: 2292

nhl.com won't let me go back any further than 97/98, but I think it's safe to say Sakic did more heavy lifting than Horcoff in the faceoff circle. (Brind'Amour, Sundin, Oates, Messier and Sillinger all topped 2000 faceoffs in a year as well).

No clue about team record, but I would assume it would be close.

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#35 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:52AM
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Greg MC wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: Sadly people don’t understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100. Next 4 years. 7.5, 6.5, 6.5, 6.0. That is paying for offence (high 80’s, low 90’s PPS).

Ah the endless cap hit vs pay debate.

You do realize that the team would be in better shape if they gave him 10 the first few years ans 1 the last few... right?

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#36 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:53AM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: We didn’t sign these guys to trade them right away. of course not, but Horc was signed at his contract because he was a point per game before his injury. If he cant regain something close to that form then his actual value to the team compared to his Cap hit wont match up. No one signs guys to trade them. But if better options come up then assets must be moveable. Case in Point, Sean Avery. The Stars thought they would get 4 million in value from their asset, it backfired, then no one would trade for him because of his perceived value to cap value. Horc and Avery ARE NOT the same, but its an example of poor asset value assessment.

Terrible example, if Avery wasn't a complete distraction to the team they would have kept him.

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#37 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:54AM
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@ Archaeologuy:

And league wide scoring trends are going down, while players salary's will be going up. It wont be long before he's out of the top 30 highest cap hit centers

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#38 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:55AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Terrible example, if Avery wasn’t a complete distraction to the team they would have kept him.

uh, doesnt that make my point for me? They perceived his value as much higher than it was actually worth, now they pay him to play for the Rangers. Horc at half the price will be a real stel for someone in two seasons.

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#39 Rob
April 22 2009, 11:56AM
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@ Ogden Brother:

No one seems to look at his contract as 5.5 mil per year, it always comes down to that first year where he makes 7 mil (not 7.5 Greg MC!). I tend to look at cap hit over yearly salary but thats just me. I get a sick feeling that Horc will have horrible year next year.

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#40 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 11:57AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

And league wide scoring trends are going down, while players salary’s will be going up.

theres a Cap and it shouldnt be going up this season. Player Contracts CANT go up without choking out teams from skating full rosters. Nice try.

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#41 topshelf
April 22 2009, 11:58AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

You do realize that the team would be in better shape if they gave him 10 the first few years ans 1 the last few… right?

Right.

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#42 Greg MC
April 22 2009, 11:58AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

You do realize that the team would be in better shape if they gave him 10 the first few years ans 1 the last few… right?

10 million for 53 points? I understand the cap.

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#43 Kyle S
April 22 2009, 11:58AM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: Sadly people don’t understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100 Ok, Horc has scored 70+ points once in 8 seasons. His next highest point total was this year at 53. It doesnt bode well.

Horcoff tends to do good every 2nd year (like Mike Grier with his goals).

05/06: 73 pts/0.92 ppg 06/07: 51 pts/0.64 ppg 07/08: 50 pts/0.94 ppg 08/09: 53 pts/0.66 ppg

See the trend? He will be almost a point per game again next year. Don't worry.

I tend to put more value in points per game than point totals.

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#44 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 11:59AM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: And league wide scoring trends are going down, while players salary’s will be going up. theres a Cap and it shouldnt be going up this season. Player Contracts CANT go up without choking out teams from skating full rosters. Nice try.

Will see July one, but I'll bet he moves down the list of highest salary/cap hit at least a few notches.

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#45 Greg MC
April 22 2009, 12:00PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

@ Archaeologuy: And league wide scoring trends are going down, while players salary’s will be going up. It wont be long before he’s out of the top 30 highest cap hit centers

Buddy, 4 20 was Monday.

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#46 Ogden Brother
April 22 2009, 12:01PM
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Greg MC wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: Sadly people don’t understand that 5.5 should get you 70 points, not 100. Next 4 years. 7.5, 6.5, 6.5, 6.0. That is paying for offence (high 80’s, low 90’s PPS).

And if you really want to play that game:

His salary is actually 18th highest amoungst forwards next year (and a few guys will proabably bump him a little futher) 18th highest scoring forward had 79 points.... so no high 80's low 90's isn't right.

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#47 Archaeologuy
April 22 2009, 12:01PM
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Kyle S wrote:

See the trend? He will be almost a point per game again next year. Don’t worry. I tend to put more value in points per game than point totals.

So do i, but I'm not convinced that after shoulder surgery he can regain that near point per game play. But if the trend continues then he should bounce back next season before flying off the rails again.

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#48 Chris
April 22 2009, 12:02PM
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Kyle S wrote:

I tend to put more value in points per game than point totals

You must be Gaborik's agent....

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#49 topshelf
April 22 2009, 12:03PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

His salary is actually 18th highest amoungst forwards next year (and a few guys will proabably bump him a little futher) 18th highest scoring forward had 79 points

Is that more or less than 53?

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#50 topshelf
April 22 2009, 12:04PM
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@ topshelf: Sorry I just couldn't resist.

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