Gregor discusses the season with Horcoff

Jason Gregor
April 09 2009 03:42PM

Horcoff scores on a hapless goalie

You know that feeling of dread when you stroll up to a party of your better half’s co-workers, or going out with your buddy after his wife/gf just dumped him, or your annual evaluation with the boss. You walk in wishing you could be somewhere else.

At the party you are forced to talk to people you don’t know or don’t like, and then you have to stay sober so the lady can have her three coolers.

Your buddy is devastated and maybe even cries. You feel awkward and try to convince him to just get drunk and hit on another girl. This turns out to be the worst advice because after six beers and a few shots, he is telling you about how he can’t go on without her. Even worse he talks to a girl and starts telling her about his ex. You watch in horror as he crashes and burns because you know he will come to you looking to be consoled.

Your boss asks you all sorts of impossible-to-answer-correctly type of questions.

What are you goals for next year?

What are your weaknesses?

How do you plan to maximize your time?

As the sweat beads down your brow, you struggle through the agonizing 30 minutes relieved just to get out of there without having to hear about his family holiday.

Well today that’s how it felt at Oilers practice. None of them wanted to be there, and neither did any media types. They might has well have had the game-day music director playing one of his usual downer songs in the locker room. (Honestly the music in the third period of the Kings game was the worst EVER).

Craig MacTavish wasn’t available, and since the Oilers won’t have a morning skate tomorrow or Saturday, MacTavish will only do post-game interviews until Monday when the Oilers have their final availability.

The Oil have missed the playoffs five of MacTavish’s last seven years, but I can’t recall a time where he went unavailable for three straight mornings. It signifies how distraught and disappointed the organization is as a whole.

They expected better, they expected to compete for the division, not a top-ten draft pick.

Is MacT’s unusual silence foreshadowing a move this summer? I sure think so. Granted there isn’t much he can say right now about the team, but I think his silence shows he doesn’t want to talk about the future, at least not until the season is over.

Outside of the coach’s future, another hot topic this summer will be how can Shawn Horcoff possibly live up to his $7 million deal next year?

Horcoff, was the consummate pro today and stood in and answered my questions.


JG: Did you play more power on power this year, and did it hinder your offence?

SH: I definitely played in more defensive situations and more defensive minutes this year than the previous two. Could I still have produced more offence with the role I had this year? Absolutely. I didn’t get off to the start I wanted. For whatever reason the first 15 to 20 games were a tough start for me. I need to work on something this summer and be better offensively next year.

JG: That contract doesn’t start until next season. When you signed it, was the expectation to be in a situation where you could live up to it? Do you need to be put in a situation where you will be given an opportunity to live up to it?

SH: I didn’t get that contract just off my offensive numbers, though, I think that’s what people need to realize. What puts me in that type of pay scale is a lot of the intangibles that I bring, the situations that I play, the minutes, the face-offs and the defensive minutes. But you are probably right, in order to put up 65 to 70+ points a year, you have to play offensive situation and pure offensive minutes. Without those minutes, it will be tough for anyone. But I have to finish better, that’s obvious.

JG: You led the league in face-offs, and played a lot of minutes. There’s a big difference between playing 20 minutes rather than 24. Were you fatigued at times?

SH: For the first time in my career, this year there were times where I hit rock-bottom maybe a little bit. There were games with 26, 25, 24 minutes and they’re not easy minutes. I’m a centreman who plays in a lot of defensive situations, with a lot of skating. I tried to stay in the best shape possible, but there are times in the schedule where it’s impossible. You’re playing seven games in 12 nights on the road and it’s impossible to get recovery time.

I talked to Mac numerous times during the year about trying to lower the minutes, and get guys in different situations, but at the end of the day he said it was a matter of having confidence and being able to get it done.

For me, I won’t question anything (ice-time) that comes my way. I enjoy the minutes. You want to be on the ice and play as much as you can. I think hockey players have that attitude that they are unbreakable and won’t get tired. But I think this year showed me that at times you can play too many minutes.

JG: When Oates was here did he help you that much in the face-off? Can you parlay that advice to Cogliano and Gagner?

SH: Oates helped me a little bit. I had a pretty decent base to start with, though. With face-offs you have to find something that works for yourself and you have to work on them. It’s a lot of timing now with the new rules not being able to cheat. You have to work on it throughout the year. It’s a lot of hand strength, wrist strength and the best guys in the league are really strong on their stick. It takes time to learn the guys around the league and what their tendencies are and what they like to do. And there is a big mental aspect to it. Face-offs are tough. I think you either have it or you don’t. With hard work you can get better, but you need a good base.

Cogs wants to get better. He asks a lot of questions and he has been working on it. He is still young and I think he will get better.


Make no mistake; Horcoff understands he will be under the radar more than ever next year. Regardless of his intangibles, he will need to score closer to 75-80 points to appease the masses and come close to living up to his new contract.

It was clear from Horcoff and a few others that this year really hurt. You could tell they believed they were better than an 11th place team. I’ve covered this team during the other four non-playoff years, and I never sensed they were this annoyed.

Sure, they were disappointed when they missed the playoffs in 2008, 2007, 2004 and 2002 but this year their faces were longer, their words shorter and the heartbreak deeper.

Too often lately the summer has filled the fans with more hope and belief than the actual games.

This summer, the personnel changes, the draft picks and the free-agent signings have to be ones that will make this organization better. A summer of discontent is unacceptable.

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One of Canada's most versatile sports personalities. Jason hosts The Jason Gregor Show, weekdays from 2 to 6 p.m., on TSN 1260, and he writes a column every Monday in the Edmonton Journal. You can follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/JasonGregor
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#1 Rick
April 09 2009, 03:50PM
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"How do you plan to maximize your time?"

I am doing it right now.

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#2 topshelf
April 09 2009, 03:56PM
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Gregor, you are bang on Horc is a consumate pro. Full marks for him answering the questions he doesn't want to hear and being honest about it.

I hope our "new direction" involves getting a checking centre so Horcoff can focus on putting up numbers next year.

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#3 Tyler
April 09 2009, 03:57PM
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Outside of the coach’s future, another hot topic this summer will be how can Shawn Horcoff possibly live up to his $7 million deal next year?

Unless you're a moron - and about 80% of the local media seems to struggle with this - part of the answer is "By having a declining salary such that his salary in the last year of his deal is $3MM annually." The only way the dollar figure for next year matters is if Katz has a budget and dollars for Horc mean fewer dollars elsewhere. If they're free to do whatever they want up to the cap, it's completely irrelevant.

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#4 topshelf
April 09 2009, 04:02PM
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@ Tyler: It's the optics of making 7 million and having 40 points.

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#5 Archaeologuy
April 09 2009, 04:07PM
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Horc: "I didn’t get that contract just off my offensive numbers, though, I think that’s what people need to realize. What puts me in that type of pay scale is a lot of the intangibles that I bring,..."

Archaeologuy chimes in anonymously from a dark corner of the internet: "Are you freakin nuts? Nobody gets 7 mill in one season because they can take a faceoff! They get paid that money for the TANGIBLES! Do you think if you werent on a PPG pace the season before you would have been given that contract because you have grit in the 3rd period of important games?!

And what Intangibles do you possess anyway? The ability to appear like you work hard while accomplishing very little? A great sense of style? A good work ethic? How far have your intangibles taken this team over the course of your career?"

Horc: "Shut up, random dude from the series of tubes that make up the internet. People in my pay scale dont respond to serfs."

Archaeologuy: "Sorry. I just thought that claiming that you possess some unquantifiable force that qualifies you to make more money than most 40 goal scorers is weak."

Horc: "You were wrong, just like all the fans that didnt cheer loud enough at Rexall this year."

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#6 Harlie
April 09 2009, 04:13PM
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I like how Horcoff mentions the "intangibles" he brings to the table but he doesn't go into exactly what they are. We know he plays a lot of minutes and we know he does most of the faceoffs but outside of that what else is he bringin to the table? i would have liked Jason to dig a bit deeper there and get Horc's to tell us his strengths. I honestly like and respect the guy and who can forget touching moment during the SC P where Horcoff took that slapshot at the end of the game and MacT jumps off thebench and rushes to Horc's side to see if he is okay. There's no doubt that Horc's brought the intangibles during those games back in 06' maybe he is just missing some chemistry on the 1st line. A certain mullet head comes to mind. And come to think of it doesn't Horc's situation seem a lot like Drury's?

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#7 Jon K
April 09 2009, 04:15PM
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What do people think Horcoff's value is to this team?

The realization most fail to make is that Horcoff is likely this team's MVP, perhaps with a hat tip to Roloson.

Replace Horcoff with another centre that doesn't have his faceoff prowess and ability to log big minutes against tough opposition and the Edmonton Oilers are a bottom 5 team this season.

It's all well and good to speculate as to what the team would be like with a Joe Thornton or Pavel Datsyuk but the bottom line is that those players are only available once every two or three seasons and you're competing with the rest of the league for them.

Horcoff may not be as valuable to a team with established depth down the middle, but he's exceptionally valuable to the Edmonton Oilers specifically.

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#8 Rick
April 09 2009, 04:21PM
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@ Tyler:

Is your objection only that the 7 mil doesn't represent the cap hit or are you also suggesting that based on the 5.5 cap hit he is likley to live up to the contract?

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#9 TonyT
April 09 2009, 04:26PM
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@ Archaeology: I second the motion. I have stated the same argument all year, exactly what intagibles does Horcoff possess? Also, if Ross Creek comes on here saying how "Horcoff" should wear the C, I'm going to be quite dissappointed. The bottom line for a Captain is for your team to get results, in a year where as the no. 1 Forward (ice time) the team greatly underacheived, his "intagibles" do not scream "capable" leadership.

@ Gregor: I realize that Horcoff's contract virtually makes him unmovable, however is there another "bad contract" out there we could possibly consider?

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#10 Jorge
April 09 2009, 04:30PM
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Think horcoff would get signed for a 5.5 million cap hit a year anywhere else?

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#11 TonyT
April 09 2009, 04:32PM
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@ Jon K: According to your argument, the difference between a bottom 5 team and bottom 10 team is Shawn Horcoff. If Roloson, who is clearly the team's MVP doesn't play what does that say about the lead shut down guy of a Defence ranked 12th out of 15 in the conference?

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#12 heed
April 09 2009, 04:35PM
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i really do believe that oiler fans will get what they truly deserve one day. i for one will cheer for the las vegas oilers just as loudly as i cheer for them now.

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#13 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 04:38PM
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Tyler wrote:

Unless you’re a moron - and about 80% of the local media seems to struggle with this - part of the answer is “By having a declining salary such that his salary in the last year of his deal is $3MM annually.” The only way the dollar figure for next year matters is if Katz has a budget and dollars for Horc mean fewer dollars elsewhere. If they’re free to do whatever they want up to the cap, it’s completely irrelevant.

Speaking of morons, your comment might be the most moronic i've read in awhile.

Tyler wrote:

By having a declining salary such that his salary in the last year of his deal is $3MM annually.”

Thanks for pointing that out Einstein, because none of us see that it is a gradual decline, especially for the first four years. What you, in all your infinite wisdom, fail to realize is that Horcoff's seven million next season counts towards the CAP for next year. That impacts a lot in how little room they have. And with Horcoff making 7 million that DOES impact how little they can spend. And the next year when the salary cap inevitably goes down to 50 or as low as 47 million Horcoff will make 6.5 out of that. Will he be as much of a factor as other guys making that much? Doubtful since to this point in his career he hasn't.

Tyler wrote:

The only way the dollar figure for next year matters is if Katz has a budget and dollars for Horc mean fewer dollars elsewhere. If they’re free to do whatever they want up to the cap, it’s completely irrelevant.

Katz has a budget. It is called the salary cap. And Horcoff's big hit clearly impacts how they spend elsewhere. It handcuffs them more than if he was making 4 million, which is what he is probably worth. To believe that Horcoff's overpriced contract doesn't have an impact in a cap world, and specifically for the Oilers, shows that you are clearly the moron.

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#14 TonyT
April 09 2009, 04:39PM
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Also, Horcoff is probably a nice guy but listen to the differences in Horcoff's interview with Souray's? Souray by most accounts had a decent if not great season, however he makes no attempt at justifying his performance and holds the whole team accountable (save Roloson). Horcoff would garner a greater deal of empathy and understanding, by holding himself accountable as well and by stating that he needs to be better, not citing "intagibles" as a reason for his worth.

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#15 Reggie
April 09 2009, 04:44PM
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Horcoff: I talked to Mac numerous times during the year about trying to lower the minutes, and get guys in different situations, but at the end of the day he said it was a matter of having confidence and being able to get it done. -----

A perfect example of mismangement of resources. A vet at 75 or 80% is better than developing or teaching a young player and having him make a mistake.

If we were a stanley cup contender, I understand having vets on the ice for the difficult minutes, but when you have a young core of players, the goal should be to bring them along as well.

That did not happen this year and I guess, the only reason it happened last year was because MacT had no choice due to injuries. When he had a choice, he did not take a chance on a young player mistake.

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#16 TonyT
April 09 2009, 04:48PM
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heed wrote:

i really do believe that oiler fans will get what they truly deserve one day. i for one will cheer for the las vegas oilers just as loudly as i cheer for them now.

@ heed: Not only is the comment irrevelant, it is also non-sensical. I suggest you go back to Vancouver and cheer for your division title and no Stanley Cups. Or if you're from Calgary, 1 Cup.

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#17 Tyler
April 09 2009, 04:50PM
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Thanks for pointing that out Einstein, because none of us see that it is a gradual decline, especially for the first four years. What you, in all your infinite wisdom, fail to realize is that Horcoff’s seven million next season counts towards the CAP for next year. That impacts a lot in how little room they have. And with Horcoff making 7 million that DOES impact how little they can spend. And the next year when the salary cap inevitably goes down to 50 or as low as 47 million Horcoff will make 6.5 out of that.

Awesome. Ask Robin or Willis to explain to you how the salary cap works.

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#18 Matt N
April 09 2009, 04:51PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Tyler wrote: Unless you’re a moron - and about 80% of the local media seems to struggle with this - part of the answer is “By having a declining salary such that his salary in the last year of his deal is $3MM annually.” The only way the dollar figure for next year matters is if Katz has a budget and dollars for Horc mean fewer dollars elsewhere. If they’re free to do whatever they want up to the cap, it’s completely irrelevant. Speaking of morons, your comment might be the most moronic i’ve read in awhile. Tyler wrote: By having a declining salary such that his salary in the last year of his deal is $3MM annually.” Thanks for pointing that out Einstein, because none of us see that it is a gradual decline, especially for the first four years. What you, in all your infinite wisdom, fail to realize is that Horcoff’s seven million next season counts towards the CAP for next year. That impacts a lot in how little room they have. And with Horcoff making 7 million that DOES impact how little they can spend. And the next year when the salary cap inevitably goes down to 50 or as low as 47 million Horcoff will make 6.5 out of that. Will he be as much of a factor as other guys making that much? Doubtful since to this point in his career he hasn’t. Tyler wrote: The only way the dollar figure for next year matters is if Katz has a budget and dollars for Horc mean fewer dollars elsewhere. If they’re free to do whatever they want up to the cap, it’s completely irrelevant. Katz has a budget. It is called the salary cap. And Horcoff’s big hit clearly impacts how they spend elsewhere. It handcuffs them more than if he was making 4 million, which is what he is probably worth. To believe that Horcoff’s overpriced contract doesn’t have an impact in a cap world, and specifically for the Oilers, shows that you are clearly the moron.

Umm, no.

Hey Gregor, you are not correct. Horc signed an extention for 6 years @ 33million. That averages out to 5.5million a year as a cap hit over those 6 years. No matter what his actual salary is year in, year out, its the average that is put against the cap. You need to check yourself before coming out swinging like this against the internet trolls.

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#19 Jon K
April 09 2009, 04:53PM
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My point is that there isn't any other available centre in the league who could fill all of the roles Horcoff does.

There are 4 centres in the league who average more TOI than Horcoff this season. Two of them are Crosby and Malkin. The other two are Mikko Koivu and Mike Richards.

Koivu and Richards are probably actually very good comparables for Horcoff. They both PK, log extensive icetime, and take a lot of faceoffs. Richards averaged 49% in the FO circle this season, Koivu 52.8%. Richards' cap hit is 5.75 while Koivu's is 3.25 for two more seasons. I suspect once Koivu hits UFA he'll receive a deal similar to Horcoff's, compensating for changes in the economic climate.

Do you have any ideas who could fill all of the roles Horcoff does and who would be available for acquisition by trade or free agency? I don't think there are 5 names who would be available in the term of Horcoff's contract.

For your example of Roloson, there are currently 13 goalies in the league with a better save percentage than him. He is tied with 5 other goalies at 0.915. Given the depth of goalies in European leagues, minor leagues, or in backup roles that have the potential to put up a similar performances, Roloson is arguably much less valuable to this team than Horcoff.

Horcoff's lack of offensive performance is certainly lamentable this year but he's correct in stating that his value goes beyond the ability to put up points.

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#20 Tyler
April 09 2009, 04:58PM
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Rick wrote:

Is your objection only that the 7 mil doesn’t represent the cap hit or are you also suggesting that based on the 5.5 cap hit he is likley to live up to the contract?

The $7MM doesn't represent the cap hit? That's apparently news in some sections of the media. I thought Jones and Spector were just intellectually dishonest when they were referring to that $7MM. I never would hav eimagined that someone wouldn't know that.

On the $5.5MM cap hit, I think the price is close to what comparable players cost as UFA's. Every UFA costs more dollars than they contribute in wins. If you want to have a winning NHL team, you need to get those guys who outperform their contracts in order to cover off some of the expensive guys at the top. I don't think that Horcoff's contract is that far out of line.

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#21 The Pestival
April 09 2009, 04:59PM
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Yesss! I love coming on here and reading Gregor or Rob "The Bod" Brownlee call people morons! Seriously, its awesome.

But yeah TonyT's comment about the drastic difference between Horcoff's interview and Souray's is bang on. Horcoff is the nice guy with the typical goofy smile in most interviews but he needs to grow a pair that matches the size of his nose and man up a bit more. Not many people are interested in "intangibles" right now.

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#22 humantorch
April 09 2009, 05:05PM
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Little known fact: Horcoff's contract is entirely based on having Heterochromia.

In seriousness, though his game kinda went south this year, huge respect to him for being the only person in the organization facing the music today. That had to have been difficult.

I hope that respect consoles him when he goes to sleep on his huge pile of money tonight.

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#23 socaldave
April 09 2009, 05:07PM
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@ Tyler: @ Matt N:

thanks for coming out, fellas. be sure to stop by again, eh?

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#24 Matt N
April 09 2009, 05:07PM
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Jorge wrote:

Think horcoff would get signed for a 5.5 million cap hit a year anywhere else?

Here are all the centers making between 4.5M and 6.5M cap hit next year. Keep in mind this is before free agency this summer.

Danny Briere 6.5 Patrick Marleau 6.3 Mike Richards 5.75 SHAWN HORCOFF 5.5 Ryan Getzlaf 5.325 Olli Jokinen 5.25 Mike Ribeiro 5 Marc Savard 5 Jeff Carter 5 Micheal Nylander 4.875 Patrice Bergeron 4.75 Andy MacDonald 4.7 David Legwand 4.5 Daymond Langkow 4.5 Jason Arnott 4.5 Tim Connelly 4.5

There are arguably 4 to 6 guys there I would trade straight up for in that list.

So in answer to your question. Yes

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#25 Dennis
April 09 2009, 05:12PM
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Reggie: Well, last year it was 16 and 19 taking on the toughs while 89 was tiptoeing through the tulips and because of that one guy's counting stats soared while his plus/minus plummeted and the other spin-off was that 16 and 19 didn't look too impressive at season's end.

This year, instead of having two pivots he trusted, MacT only had one and he rode the shag out of 10.

As for the other thing, If 10 puts up 60 points and he's say +15 in terms of real plus/minus - ENG removed both ways - then I don't think anyone with a understanding of how things work will slam the guy. If you're a fellow who picks up the paper and Horc's +8 - let's say he's been on the ice for six ENGA and only one SNGF - and he's only got 50 points, then you're gonna go mad and if you're only a casual fan, I guess I understand that.

But, it's not cool to pick on a kid like 89 but if that kid did more with the soft time 10's hard work provided him, we'd be a lot closer to the playoffs right now.

10's cap hit was 3.5 this year, right? He's not the problem. It's gonna be 5.5 for the next few years, right?

At ~60 points and a Real +15, he won't be a problem.

In fact, watch how little you talk about his money once we A: see 89 grow up to the point where he can eat soft min or B: take some of the load off 10 by signing up a vet pivot.

it's all about the big picture but people still refuse to see it.

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#26 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 05:23PM
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TonyT wrote:

@ Gregor: I realize that Horcoff’s contract virtually makes him unmovable, however is there another “bad contract” out there we could possibly consider?

Good question. Some would argue that Gomez and Drury are both bad contracts. Gomez makes $8.0 million the next two years, then $7.5, $5.5 and $4.5. He is a cap hit of $7.3.

Drury makes $8.05, then $8.0 and then $5.0. He makes more the next two years, but only has three years left.

What about Brad Richards. He makes $7.8 for the next two years...but I doubt Dallas takes Horcoff's contract because of the length.

I really can't find one that is equal, or a team that might consider taking him.

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#27 Jorge
April 09 2009, 05:24PM
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Matt N wrote:

Jorge wrote: Think horcoff would get signed for a 5.5 million cap hit a year anywhere else? Here are all the centers making between 4.5M and 6.5M cap hit next year. Keep in mind this is before free agency this summer. Danny Briere 6.5 Patrick Marleau 6.3 Mike Richards 5.75 SHAWN HORCOFF 5.5 Ryan Getzlaf 5.325 Olli Jokinen 5.25 Mike Ribeiro 5 Marc Savard 5 Jeff Carter 5 Micheal Nylander 4.875 Patrice Bergeron 4.75 Andy MacDonald 4.7 David Legwand 4.5 Daymond Langkow 4.5 Jason Arnott 4.5 Tim Connelly 4.5 There are arguably 4 to 6 guys there I would trade straight up for in that list. So in answer to your question. Yes

you would trade horcoff straight up for 4 to 6 people on that list? I deffinitely would. So wouldnt that mean Horcoff isn't worth what his cap hit is?

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#28 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 05:39PM
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Matt N wrote:

Hey Gregor, you are not correct. Horc signed an extention for 6 years @ 33million. That averages out to 5.5million a year as a cap hit over those 6 years. No matter what his actual salary is year in, year out, its the average that is put against the cap. You need to check yourself before coming out swinging like this against the internet trolls.

Wrong again Matt. Yes it is a $5.5 hit overall, but there is still an annual cap as well. Next season the Cap will be for example $56 million. Horcoff's $7 counts towards that individual yearly cap.

Some players will have their salary go up over the course of the contract, while some like Horcoff will see their's go down.

Here is how it works...essentially there are two caps.

When you total the Average of all the players salary, it can never exceed $56...but there is also an individual cap. If that makes sense.

Horcoff has seven million towards the 200/2010...and his overall cap hit is $5.5...In the final year of his contract he is a $3 million hit towards the 2014/2015 season...although in the 14/15 season he will still be a 5.5 cap hit.

I come out swinging when I'm right in this case I'm right.

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#29 Tyler
April 09 2009, 05:40PM
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Gregor

I am virtually certain that you just got it wrong again on the radio. There is no second cap based on the dollar figures for that year. You just cited the Rangers - they look to be spending $65MM according to NHLscap.com this year. I doubt it's off by $9MM.

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#30 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 05:40PM
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Jorge wrote:

you would trade horcoff straight up for 4 to 6 people on that list? I deffinitely would. So wouldnt that mean Horcoff isn’t worth what his cap hit is?

Which four would you trade straight up? And do you think the other team would do it?

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#31 Marchantfan
April 09 2009, 05:44PM
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Too big a man to admit a clear mistake, Gregor? Regardless, thanks for posting the interview.

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#32 Tyler
April 09 2009, 05:51PM
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I just took a look through the CBA again. I don't see anything that supports Gregor's interpretation. Where the specific dollars matter is for calculating the player's share of league revenue, which is irrelevant to the Oilers.

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#33 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 06:03PM
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Tyler wrote:

Gregor I am virtually certain that you just got it wrong again on the radio. There is no second cap based on the dollar figures for that year. You just cited the Rangers - they look to be spending $65MM according to NHLscap.com this year. I doubt it’s off by $9MM.

Go back and read your nhlscap.com...it says actual salary and payroll salary...there is a difference. I know for a fact there is a single season salary cap. I've had Rick Olcyzk on the show many times to explain this. Go back and read your site again..look at the difference between payroll salary and actual...when a player gets hurt, if he goes on LIR, then that portion of his yearly salary while he is hurt doesn't count against the cap.

Why did the Flames only dress 16 skaters for a few games??? Because they couldn't recall anyone even with minimum salary.

Remember this...There are 186 days in the season...and the salary cap is broken down into that proportion.

When the Rangers traded for Derek Morris they didn't take on all of his 3.9 million dollar salary. THere was 39 days left in the season so they had to pay $800,000 of his salary...thus for them he became a cap hit of 800,000 not the full contract.

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#34 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 06:04PM
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Marchantfan wrote:

Too big a man to admit a clear mistake, Gregor? Regardless, thanks for posting the interview.

I wasn't the one who made the mistake. Don't chime in when you are uninformed.

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#35 Jonathan Willis
April 09 2009, 06:05PM
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Tyler's correct about salary cap hits. He references the Rangers but there are plenty of other teams who are exceeding the cap in terms of total salary this year.

Only the average number in the player's contract is counted against the salary cap - which means that Shawn Horcoff has a 5.5-million cap hit regardless if his salary is 7 million or 3 million. Only the average counts against the cap.

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#36 Tyler
April 09 2009, 06:10PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Why did the Flames only dress 16 skaters for a few games??? Because they couldn’t recall anyone even with minimum salary.

Sure, because they weren't putting anyone onto LTIR and getting the cap relief. They had injured guys who were still on the roster and eating cap space.

I don't know what Olczyck told you - I haven't heard the interview - but you don't have it right. Go read s. 50 of the CBA and see if you can find anything that says anything near what you think the rule is.

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#37 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 06:11PM
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Tyler wrote:

I just took a look through the CBA again. I don’t see anything that supports Gregor’s interpretation. Where the specific dollars matter is for calculating the player’s share of league revenue, which is irrelevant to the Oilers.

The team can not pay out more than the cap of each individual season. That is a fact. If you don't believe it, then you have no comprehension of the cap. Injured players payroll does not count against the cap if a team puts a player on long term IR. If he is on regular IR for ten games, then his salary still counts against the yearly cap.

What would be the point of having a yearly cap if teams could go over it...by front loading contracts and then having them with smaller salary at the back.

Then a team would sign all their players to front loaded contracts...You obviously don't understand the Cap. Rick Olczyk has been on my show explaining this many times. I will take his insight over yours.

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#38 Jonathan Willis
April 09 2009, 06:11PM
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From page 204 of the CBA:

For any multi-year SPC, for purposes of calculating the Club's Averaged Club Salary in any League Year, the Averaged Amount of such SPC shall be used.
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#39 Tyler
April 09 2009, 06:13PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Then a team would sign all their players to front loaded contracts…You obviously don’t understand the Cap. Rick Olczyk has been on my show explaining this many times. I will take his insight over yours.

Is the clip archived on your site?

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#40 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 06:13PM
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Tyler wrote:

Sure, because they weren’t putting anyone onto LTIR and getting the cap relief. They had injured guys who were still on the roster and eating cap space.

No because with less than ten games to go you CAN't put anyone on IR. You clearly don't know as much as you think you do. Sometimes it is better to just believe people (Olczyk) who know the ins and outs of their job.

Also if you seem to think there is no individual yearly cap then why couldn't they just have called somebody up??? See the error of your ways yet?

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#41 Jorge
April 09 2009, 06:15PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Jorge wrote: you would trade horcoff straight up for 4 to 6 people on that list? I deffinitely would. So wouldnt that mean Horcoff isn’t worth what his cap hit is? Which four would you trade straight up? And do you think the other team would do it?

No I hightly doubt any of the teams would be interested in trading straight up horcoff for their center but of the list i like:

Patrick Marleau 6.3 Mike Richards 5.75 Ryan Getzlaf 5.325 Marc Savard 5 Jeff Carter 5 Jason Arnott 4.5

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#42 Ogden Brother
April 09 2009, 06:15PM
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Tyler wrote:

Gregor I am virtually certain that you just got it wrong again on the radio. There is no second cap based on the dollar figures for that year. You just cited the Rangers - they look to be spending $65MM according to NHLscap.com this year. I doubt it’s off by $9MM.

Sens have $62 as well...

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#43 Jonathan Willis
April 09 2009, 06:16PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

What would be the point of having a yearly cap if teams could go over it…by front loading contracts and then having them with smaller salary at the back. Then a team would sign all their players to front loaded contracts…You obviously don’t understand the Cap. Rick Olczyk has been on my show explaining this many times. I will take his insight over yours.

Jason, how then do you explain the Rangers current payroll situation, which has them exceeding the salary cap?

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#44 Phil
April 09 2009, 06:17PM
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Jon K wrote:

What do people think Horcoff’s value is to this team? The realization most fail to make is that Horcoff is likely this team’s MVP, perhaps with a hat tip to Roloson. Replace Horcoff with another centre that doesn’t have his faceoff prowess and ability to log big minutes against tough opposition and the Edmonton Oilers are a bottom 5 team this season.

Haha, that's what everyone said last year. They ended up being fine.

Horcoff is overrating himself. One cocky SOB.

Talkin' bout "intangibles" when he's gonna be makin' a cool 7 mill next year, gimme a f*ckin' break.

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#45 Ogden Brother
April 09 2009, 06:18PM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

Tyler’s correct about salary cap hits. He references the Rangers but there are plenty of other teams who are exceeding the cap in terms of total salary this year. Only the average number in the player’s contract is counted against the salary cap - which means that Shawn Horcoff has a 5.5-million cap hit regardless if his salary is 7 million or 3 million. Only the average counts against the cap.

.....uh oh

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#46 Jonathan Willis
April 09 2009, 06:18PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Also if you seem to think there is no individual yearly cap then why couldn’t they just have called somebody up???

He didn't say there wasn't an individual yearly cap, just that for the purposes of that cap the average of the player's total contract, rather than the salary for that year, is counted.

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#47 Jonathan Willis
April 09 2009, 06:20PM
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This also from page 204 of the CBA:

Illustration #1: A Club signs a Player to a three-year SPC providing for $500,000 in Player Salary and Bonuses in Year 1, $600,000 in Year 2, and $700,000 in Year 3. The charge to the Club's Averaged Club Salary in all three years of the SPC is $600,000.
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#48 Jack "FMNF" Bauer
April 09 2009, 06:24PM
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Okay so lets simplify this.

You cant have a yearly payroll that exceeds $56 million correct? So for next year Horcoff's hit is $7.00 even though his cap is 5.5, but on the flip side Hemsky's hit is 3.6 even though his cap hit is 4.1. So for those two players they count $10.6 million of $56 million against this yearly annual cap?

BUT your also saying we have this average cap, which cant exceed $56 million yes? So for next year using Horcoff and Hemsky that cap hit is only $9.6 million right?

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#49 Jack "FMNF" Bauer
April 09 2009, 06:26PM
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And I should add, which is correct, one of those or both?

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#50 Jason Gregor
April 09 2009, 06:27PM
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Tyler wrote:

Jason Gregor wrote: Then a team would sign all their players to front loaded contracts…You obviously don’t understand the Cap. Rick Olczyk has been on my show explaining this many times. I will take his insight over yours. Is the clip archived on your site?

I don't archive interviews longer than a month. Let me explain this another way.

The escrow value of Horcoff's contract will be determined on the 7 million that he gets paid next year, not 5.5 million. And with the % of escrow that players have to pay back, or recieve depending on the actual league revenue, that affects the cap.

That is how it affects the yearly average. So technically not in a cap sense, but each individual year still affects the cap. The escrow hurts the players more than the teams, but it still impacts the cap.

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