New arena: nothing to do with Heatley

bingofuel
July 03 2009 04:34PM

new-arena-casino

I have some news that -- blessedly -- has nothing to do with Dany "WaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAH" Heatley. One of the members of my crack team of visual designers at the day-job was just sent this fabulous little gem about the Oil probably getting a new arena.

Note that this is still JUST RUMOUR. But it's compelling and sexy nonetheless. Directly quoting the e-mail we received:

Plan will unfold

The downtown Baccarat Casino land (on 104 Avenue between 101 Street and 104 Street), should soon be officially announced as the new hockey arena site and "precinct." The great man himself, Oilers and Rexall owner Darryl Katz, is expected to make the announcement and offer a few more tantalizing details, probably after the Rexall Edmonton Indy. All makes sense. The 11.5 acres of casino land was one of the top locations in the city-commissioned downtown arena feasibility study. It has LRT access and a central downtown location, plus more available "brown-field" land to the north and to the east, behind the under-construction EPCOR Tower of Power. The flag was raised when the local WAM (Western Asset Management) development company purchased the land from Gateway Casinos, with Gateway retaining the right to operate a new casino on the land.
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Bingofuel is the handsome cyborg who pulls all the levers behind the curtains of the OilersNation. When he isn't running the site, he's plugged into a wall socket, recharging. Or Brownlee and Wanye are playing "keep away" with him. He gets little to no respect.
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#51 DanMan
July 04 2009, 06:31AM
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What Lowe needs to be held accountable for is the Horcoff contract.

That is an absolute joke. Having a third line center be a $5.5 million cap hit is going to prevent the Oilers from signing any $4 million-plus player for the next few years (unless Tambo can work some serious magic).

The guy has marginal offensive talent, cant produce unless he plays with Hemmer, and "wore down" last last from all the "tough" minutes.

Why doesnt Zetterberg wear down? He played way more minutes against top players. Is he in better physical condition than Horcoff?

I think the Horc deal was Kevin Lowes' final F**K YOU to the Edmonton Oilers organization.

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#52 erixon
July 04 2009, 07:37AM
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yo wrote:

I think we should all give Kevin Lowe a big Bronx cheer for making the Oiler’s situation such a resounding mess and then kicking himself upstairs. Now Tambo is up to his ass in alligators trying to fix it. Will the city’s and the organization’s reputations ever recover?? Robert Tychkowski in the Edmonton Sun today: “The Oilers have a long history of botching things at the trade deadline or on July 1. Janne Niinimaa learned about his trade from TV, the Michael Nylander swap fell through, Mike Comrie to Anaheim fell through, Ryan Smyth’s trade happened well after the deadline, the Erik Cole deal came down well after the deadline, while Cole was at lunch to toast the fact he hadn’t been traded, and Monday with Heatley was a total disaster.” Now add Gogliano, Smid and Penner. Thanks KLowe, thanks for such a grand legacy of smooth moves for us all to tell our grandkids about.

1-Most players see the trades go through on TV or in the media now before they talk to the organization. 2-Nylander had absolutely nothing to do with the Oilers bothcing anything. 3-Trades are never done "after the deadline" or there would be no trades... Does this guy even follow the NHL?

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#53 erixon
July 04 2009, 07:58AM
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DanMan wrote:

What Lowe needs to be held accountable for is the Horcoff contract. That is an absolute joke. Having a third line center be a $5.5 million cap hit is going to prevent the Oilers from signing any $4 million-plus player for the next few years (unless Tambo can work some serious magic). The guy has marginal offensive talent, cant produce unless he plays with Hemmer, and “wore down” last last from all the “tough” minutes. Why doesnt Zetterberg wear down? He played way more minutes against top players. Is he in better physical condition than Horcoff? I think the Horc deal was Kevin Lowes’ final F**K YOU to the Edmonton Oilers organization.

Horcoff isn't that grossly overpaid, maybe a little, but really it's not that bad. As for Zetterberg playing more mintures, last year his average time on ice was 19:53, while Horcoff's was 21:22. So Horcoff actually plays more than Zetterberg. If you average out his Points Per Game over the last 4 years, it comes out to .78, a point 3 of every 4 games.

Now take into consideration that Horcoff maybe has never played with the same quality of players that Zetterberg has, Hemsky is a great talent, but we still have question marks about taking it to the "next level". Horcoff is relied on to take every important faceoff, be out there on every PK, PP, etc. He plays an important role on this team. By no means am I saying that he is worth his contract, because he is not, but it's not as bad as what everyone thinks, and in no way does he deserve to be demoted to be the 3rd line.

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#54 tkap84
July 04 2009, 09:03AM
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@ erixon:

zing... well put. as they always say come trade deadline time, deals trickle in sometime a half an hour or hour after the deadline due to paper work processing and other bs. It's sometimes hard to make a deal when no one wants to play in Edmonton. And if they do, we give them a premium on top of their sallary (ie Horcoff) to play here.

I wonder what guys like Hemsky, Visnovsky and Souray are thinking when guys like Heatley don't want to give it a chance and come and play with them. The management staff even goes out on a limb to see a player and they still say no thanks... it snows there. or last superstar I heard who played there had troubles with the media. ie banging them

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#55 The Menace
July 04 2009, 09:27AM
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The comments seem to have derailed a bit here, but I think that site is an excellent spot for the new building. That should be great, and should rejuvenate that area a bit. I would also like to add that I won a Xerox beer chugging contest at that casino once - against some pretty stiff competition too.

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#56 Greg MC
July 04 2009, 09:42AM
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Best possible location downtown.

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#57 Mike Hynes
July 04 2009, 09:53AM
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Aame as the oilers and our supposed "core" of moreau pisani and staios guys the oil would never move cause they are our great vets that were around for the cup run

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#58 Mike Hynes
July 04 2009, 10:01AM
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Ahem sarcasm

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#59 RossCreek
July 04 2009, 10:04AM
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DanMan wrote:

That is an absolute joke. Having a third line center be a $5.5 million cap hit is going to prevent the Oilers from signing any $4 million-plus player for the next few years (unless Tambo can work some serious magic).

I'm not even an Oiler fan, but there is NO way Horcoff is a 3rd line center. Worst case scenario, he's probably in the 20-45 range making him a good 2nd line center or a poor 1st line center. If he were making Daymond Langkow's 4.5, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with his contract!

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#60 Sweet Jimmy K
July 04 2009, 11:28AM
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I guess that location is ok. I would have preferred something along the river valley, maybe across the street from the Shaw Conference Center, something that when CBC does that city center shot during the game, you can see the arena and it is awesome

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#61 bingofuel
July 04 2009, 11:34AM
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@ Sweet Jimmy K:

The buildings across from the Shaw on Jasper, though dilapidated, are heritage buildings. Can't tear them down, so I think the plan is to wait for leases to expire, move some of the sktechy businesses out of there, then refurbish the old buildings. An arena couldn't be built there without a lot of legal wrangling, I think.

Someone who's smarter, correct me if I'm wrong.

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#62 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 11:42AM
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The Horcoff discussion will never end. He is overpaid. Perhaps by as much as 1.5 million per season. He had 1 good season, destroyed his shoulder, then signed a massive contract. Over the last 4 years he might average .78 points per game, but since undergoing major shoulder surgery he has averaged just 0.66.

So what does roughly 1.5 million dollars translate to? For just a little more its Ruslan Fedotenko: 1.8 a season, 0.6 points per game, on pace for 20 goals over 82 games last season.

Chad LaRose: 1.7 a season. 19 goals last season.

Mark Recchi: 1 a season. 23 goals 61 points

Fiddler: 1.1 a season 54.1 faceoff %. bottom six player.

1.5 wont get the Oilers the next "Great One" but 1.5 CAN be used to acquire a solid player that can contribute to some of the team's needs, like tougher D-Men, Faceoff winning 3rd liners, and penalty killers. So no, the "slight" overpayment to Horc wont sink the team but it does translate directly to lost opportunities to acquire better players. I doubt Horc will ever be the same player he was once capable of being and his contract will likely prevent the Oilers from upgrading the C position.

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#63 Sweet Jimmy K
July 04 2009, 11:53AM
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@ bingofuel: Even if they were to swing a deal with the Shaw and build right beside it. They could share a huge parking structure. I guess my ideal building would be something that would be a centerpiece of a new downtown and not something that is kind of shoved in the corner, almost out of downtown.

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#64 DanMan
July 04 2009, 12:08PM
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What I was trying to say about Horcoff is that on a good team he would be a third line center with decent offense.

Im thinkin John Maddens role in Chicago for 2.75 cap hit.

Yeah you really "zinged" me stating the virtues of Horcoff.

If Horc was so great in all situations there surely must have been a Selke nomination, no?

If this team ever wants to go anywhere we need a REAL #1 center.

Boo yeah!!

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#65 Soup
July 04 2009, 12:17PM
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Although I don't see Horc as a first line center, I do think guys have to get off his back. Good to great second line guy, and most forwards who come of major reconstructuve sholder surgery take at least a year to get over it.

He is a good team citizen and has been very loyal to the team. Before he hurt his sholder, he was or damned near a point-per-game guy. Big contract? Sure. It isn't the only one - on this team or in the league.

Last year should be treated as an anomaly for most of the team. I don't think we should underestimate the destructive coaching situation. If the second year jinx is to be believed, Cogs, Gagne, Gilbert and others should be much better. I suspect both Penner and Nils will be back in form, whether it be here or elsewhere. Could the team use a first line winger and centre, someone who can win a defensive faceoff and a mean-bastard d-man? Obviously.

More than anything else, I hope we return to real Oilers hockey. Run, gun and f-up as many times as you make a highlight reel. Bring the fun back to the game for these guys and others will want to play here again. If people like Doug Weight, Bill Guerin and others are to be believed, they had more fun playing here in the 90's than most anywhere else in their career. I truly believe that has much more to do with the Oil style of the day rather than the bucks, weather or anything else for that matter.

How many times over the last couple of years did it look like the team was having fun?

Everybody, all at once.... deep clensing breath. Relax. It is still just a game.

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#66 Heazues
July 04 2009, 12:25PM
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its really only a few blocks from the downtown core. and unlike most other sites. it has the room for parking, decent traffic flow and room for backround development.

@ Bingofuel

i would like to see that area cleaned up aswell. maybe the city should allow the owners of the buildings/housing to apply for grants or tax breaks as an incentive to refurbish the area.

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#67 DanMan
July 04 2009, 12:40PM
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Soup wrote:

Although I don’t see Horc as a first line center, I do think guys have to get off his back. Good to great second line guy, and most forwards who come of major reconstructuve sholder surgery take at least a year to get over it. He is a good team citizen and has been very loyal to the team. Before he hurt his sholder, he was or damned near a point-per-game guy. Big contract? Sure. It isn’t the only one - on this team or in the league. Last year should be treated as an anomaly for most of the team. I don’t think we should underestimate the destructive coaching situation. If the second year jinx is to be believed, Cogs, Gagne, Gilbert and others should be much better. I suspect both Penner and Nils will be back in form, whether it be here or elsewhere. Could the team use a first line winger and centre, someone who can win a defensive faceoff and a mean-bastard d-man? Obviously. More than anything else, I hope we return to real Oilers hockey. Run, gun and f-up as many times as you make a highlight reel. Bring the fun back to the game for these guys and others will want to play here again. If people like Doug Weight, Bill Guerin and others are to be believed, they had more fun playing here in the 90’s than most anywhere else in their career. I truly believe that has much more to do with the Oil style of the day rather than the bucks, weather or anything else for that matter. How many times over the last couple of years did it look like the team was having fun? Everybody, all at once…. deep clensing breath. Relax. It is still just a game.

couldn't have said it better myself

Man I'm glad Pat Quinn is here

C'mon everyone and drink the Oil-aid!

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#68 tkap84
July 04 2009, 12:53PM
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@ Soup:

well put soup man. I agree the horcoff debate will never end until that contract expires. I have always been a fan of his. I do agree with the critics who say he is not a legit or real number 1 center and more like a 3rd line center. but this is edmonton. We should have kept Stoll. Now he is going to be playing with Ryan Smyth.

horcoff has the potential for a solid year this year under the new coaches. from what I understand he gives it hard during the summer training. he needs to finish hemmer's passes more. But that's what Heatley will come here to do!

if we don'T get a scoring left winger, we are going to be battling for 8/9/10th place this season, yet again... Cole was a project by MacT that turned horribly. I even think Moreau played wing on the first line this year. that kind of thing should not be happening.

put the new rink in St. Albert!! that would be great!! haha

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#69 erixon
July 04 2009, 12:54PM
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bingofuel wrote:

@ Sweet Jimmy K: The buildings across from the Shaw on Jasper, though dilapidated, are heritage buildings. Can’t tear them down, so I think the plan is to wait for leases to expire, move some of the sktechy businesses out of there, then refurbish the old buildings. An arena couldn’t be built there without a lot of legal wrangling, I think. Someone who’s smarter, correct me if I’m wrong.

But I thought Katz owned Edmonton? Surely all it will take to convince everyone is a couple rexall mind control pills.

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#70 erixon
July 04 2009, 01:02PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

The Horcoff discussion will never end. He is overpaid. Perhaps by as much as 1.5 million per season. He had 1 good season, destroyed his shoulder, then signed a massive contract. Over the last 4 years he might average .78 points per game, but since undergoing major shoulder surgery he has averaged just 0.66. So what does roughly 1.5 million dollars translate to? For just a little more its Ruslan Fedotenko: 1.8 a season, 0.6 points per game, on pace for 20 goals over 82 games last season. Chad LaRose: 1.7 a season. 19 goals last season. Mark Recchi: 1 a season. 23 goals 61 points Fiddler: 1.1 a season 54.1 faceoff %. bottom six player. 1.5 wont get the Oilers the next “Great One” but 1.5 CAN be used to acquire a solid player that can contribute to some of the team’s needs, like tougher D-Men, Faceoff winning 3rd liners, and penalty killers. So no, the “slight” overpayment to Horc wont sink the team but it does translate directly to lost opportunities to acquire better players. I doubt Horc will ever be the same player he was once capable of being and his contract will likely prevent the Oilers from upgrading the C position.

This year will tell the tale if he can come back from shoulder surgery, you have to give the guy a year. You talk about "since shoulder surgery he has only averaged .66 points per game," But that's just a one year total. Horcoffs shoulder is not permanently damaged, it's as good as it was before. The real part of the recovery process as a hockey player is regaining confidence, and shaking off the cobwebs. I recall Horcoff saying it was a little strange coming back, as he was always protecting his shoulder, even after it was fully recovered, and getting used to playing again. The guy missed a lot of time, sometimes it takes a full year to recover from a season-ending injury. The guy has been almost a point-per-game player in 2 of the last 4 seasons, and while he may not reach that level again, I hardly think its a fluke, and I would be hard pressed to find another guy that works as hard as Horcoff does, especially on this team.

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#71 RossCreek
July 04 2009, 01:11PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

So what does roughly 1.5 million dollars translate to? For just a little more its Ruslan Fedotenko: 1.8 a season, 0.6 points per game, on pace for 20 goals over 82 games last season. Chad LaRose: 1.7 a season. 19 goals last season. Mark Recchi: 1 a season. 23 goals 61 points

And these guys all stayed with their teams. Edmonton would not have gotten Fedotenko at 1.8. You're right that its money that could be spent elsewhere. 1.5 is prob a little high on your part. Who'd you take if both had the same contract - Langkow or Horcoff? IMO, and I'm a Flames fan, there's not a whole lot of difference between the 2. I'd listen to arguments for both, but IMO there isn';t a clear cut guy I'd take. Put it this way, I'd take Horcoff @ 4.5 ahead of Langkow @ 5.5 and vice versa.

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#72 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 01:32PM
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RossCreek wrote:

And these guys all stayed with their teams

Didnt Horc resign with his team? ;)

At the time of Horc's contract the Cap had gone up again and it seemed like it would never stop. There was no recession and guys like Hossa were being offered 9mill a season by teams like the Oilers.

You look at the contract again in the present and guys like Hossa and Havlat are averaging less in Cap hit than Horcoff now. That makes a lot of contracts look bad.

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#73 RossCreek
July 04 2009, 02:07PM
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@ Archaeologuy: Exactly. Which means complaining about his contract is not only pointless (as there's nothing we can do), but also stupid. You just gave a logical explanation as to why he got what he got. It made sense at the time... no different than that ONE (ya right) night at the bar.

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#74 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 02:25PM
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@ RossCreek: except that ONE night at the bar will last 5 years. Plenty of reason to complain about it because if the Cap takes a drastically bigger dive next season than it did this season the Oilers might be forced to bury him in the minors or buy him out, or ship out better players just to make the cap.

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#75 JF
July 04 2009, 02:53PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

@ RossCreek: except that ONE night at the bar will last 5 years.

I'd make that TWO. We agree that Horcoff is overpaid by 1-1.5MM, take a look at Staios' 2.7MM. isn't that roughly 1-1.3MM overpaid too? imagine what we could do with that 2.5MM ;)

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#76 MattL
July 04 2009, 02:53PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

RossCreek wrote: And these guys all stayed with their teams Didnt Horc resign with his team? At the time of Horc’s contract the Cap had gone up again and it seemed like it would never stop. There was no recession and guys like Hossa were being offered 9mill a season by teams like the Oilers. You look at the contract again in the present and guys like Hossa and Havlat are averaging less in Cap hit than Horcoff now. That makes a lot of contracts look bad.

Gaborik @ 7.5

Hossa only at 5.25 because from age 38-43, he's making far less, and will likely retire before he sees the end of the contract. Realistically, for the first 7 years of the contract, he's at around 7mil/year.

Havlat @ 5 only because he held out for a contract that will probably last longer than he can walk, based on his injury history. Could have probably signed 6 mil for one or two years.

Let's not forget Cammalleri @ 6.

Scorcoff @ 5.5/year, signed before the recession still isn't a horrible affront for a first line center that was trending up towards a point/game, likes the city (which so many of you claim is VITALLY IMPORTANT) and who is at least a "B" grade in every aspect of the game except goaltending.

Sure, 5/year would be better, and 4.5 even more realistic, but I wouldn't even put his contract in the top ten worst in the league. This wouldn't be nearly as big a deal if he wasn't making 7 million in real dollars this year.

Bad optics and fan ignorance are to blame for widespread dissatisfaction for this deal.

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#77 tkap84
July 04 2009, 02:54PM
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I don't know what makes you guys think that Horcoff can't be a point per game player this year? I think those guys are embarassed with how the season ended last year. Horcoff has had a full year to recover and did play in the world championships with team Canada. He should be good to go for a pt per game season, if not close. Regardless we need someone who is an actual first line lw, which are hard to come by... this is why the heatley deal would be perfect. he is a lw superstar, they are hard to come across and heatley knows it too.

we can complain about horc's contract forever, bottom line and it was well put by one of you guys is that he was signed then when the market was high, it's like the housing market in edmonton, everything was at its peak, eventually they fall down. if ovechkin/crosby/malkins contracts we to be up this year they wouldn't get the deals they got last season.

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#78 JF
July 04 2009, 03:00PM
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@ MattL: Well written. I agree with all of that.

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#79 JF
July 04 2009, 03:05PM
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tkap84 wrote:

Regardless we need someone who is an actual first line lw, .

The article I'm linking to addresses our current 1LW very well, worth a look.

hxxp://www.coppernblue.com/2009/7/3/927555/an-amicus-brief-in-support-of

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#80 tkap84
July 04 2009, 03:13PM
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JF wrote:

tkap84 wrote: Regardless we need someone who is an actual first line lw, . The article I’m linking to addresses our current 1LW very well, worth a look. hxxp://www.coppernblue.com/2009/7/3/927555/an-amicus-brief-in-support-of

that article tells the exact truth based on the numbers. well done for the research my friend. Penner may not be as bad as everyone make him out to be.

regardless, have heatley with hemsky and horcoff for an entire season... wonder what those stats would look like.

if the trade never happens, I am interested/excited to see what quinn/renney can do with penner's size and "skill"... sorry for the quotation marks on that one... haha

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#81 JF
July 04 2009, 03:19PM
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@ tkap84: haha no worries, I just felt the need to defend PDP ;)

A triple-H line would be amazing, but our first line is definitely not our biggest weakness at this point, in my opinion.

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#82 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 03:23PM
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tkap84 wrote:

I don’t know what makes you guys think that Horcoff can’t be a point per game player this year?

You mean besides the fact that outside of 1 50 game stretch in 8 seasons Horc has never been a point a game? And had a major shoulder injury from which he seems not to have overcome, at least mentally.

MattL wrote:

Bad optics and fan ignorance are to blame for widespread dissatisfaction for this deal.

That and his terrible play since signing it.

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#83 Little fury
July 04 2009, 03:27PM
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Robin Brownlee wrote:

This is about the arena. Don’t drag Heatley into it.

Yeah because Katz and Tambo's relentless and Quixotic pursuit of a 50 goal marquee player has absolutely nothing to do with selling a new rink. No sirree.

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#84 MattL
July 04 2009, 03:32PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

That and his terrible play since signing it.

Agreed, his after-signing play hasn't been up to snuff, (and he won't be the first to choke in his first year of a big money deal) but I bet we aren't talking about it today if they'd leveled out his real salary to his average.

Mind you, we will be talking about it this coming year if he's still in the 0.6ppg game in February, and our penalty kill is still woefully inept. And so far, I don't see any proof that those won't both happen.

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#85 MattL
July 04 2009, 03:41PM
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DanMan wrote:

What Lowe needs to be held accountable for is the Horcoff contract. That is an absolute joke. Having a third line center be a $5.5 million cap hit is going to prevent the Oilers from signing any $4 million-plus player for the next few years (unless Tambo can work some serious magic). The guy has marginal offensive talent, cant produce unless he plays with Hemmer, and “wore down” last last from all the “tough” minutes. Why doesnt Zetterberg wear down? He played way more minutes against top players. Is he in better physical condition than Horcoff? I think the Horc deal was Kevin Lowes’ final F**K YOU to the Edmonton Oilers organization.

1) Horc's (1st/2nd line Center) Contract is not a joke. Bobby Holik's contract was a joke. Horc is a bit of an overpay.

2) If by "marginal" offensive talent, you mean he's at the upper margin, then yes. Because compared to every other pro-hockey player in the world, he's definitely closer to the top than the bottom. How many all-star games have YOU played in?

3) Horcoff isn't Zetterberg, otherwise he'd have an even more unwieldy contract. Also, Horcoff doesn't play for Detroit, which I believe is a significant difference.

4) If you think Lowe wants to give an F-U to the Oilers, and would do so, you are mentally enfeebled. That is maybe the dumbest argument I've read about anything, ever. No exaggeration.

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#86 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 03:57PM
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@ MattL: Thats the thing. The Oilers paid for almost a point per game and got 2/3's of what they expected. That's why the fans were/are all over him. They didnt give him more than 5 for his defensive game, those guys can be had for less than 3 a year. 5.5 was for offense yet to be delivered.

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#87 GLoKz0r
July 04 2009, 05:06PM
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Alright, I really really don't get how everyone can ride Horcoff so much. Calling him a 2nd line center is giving him too little credit, and calling him a 3rd line center is simply out of touch with reality... stop rationing your meds.

With the way you guys complain about his Salary, you'd think he was among the highest paid in the league. 5.5 Mil could be argued to be a slight overpay (I'd be comfortable with 5, and 4.5 would have been a bargain). It is nothing close to the albatross that seems to be the sentiment amongst his haters.

Horc took the most face-offs of anyone in the league. Now, did you pay attention at all to what the % look like for everyone else that's remotely close to him in face off's taken?

Player - Total - % Horcoff - 1756 - 53.9% Carter - 1725 - 48.3% Richards - 1660 - 49% M. Koivu - 1625 - 52.7% Crosby - 1615 - 51.3% E. Staal - 1586 - 45.3%

Among the Centermen who took over 1500 face-offs, Horcoff's is the best %. He's also BY FAR the best when you consider those that are within 150 faceoffs of him. What's the common theme here? They're all first line centers.

Horcoff also ranked 8th in the league among forwards in ice-time at 21:10 minutes a game. Among those above him? Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Iginla... you know, all the other 3rd line centers who get 1.5 mil..... Wait....

He kills Penalties, blocks shots, plays a strong two-way game, and doesn't take many penalties (39 PIM this season).

He was also +7 on this defensively inept Oilers team this season, which as a team was a combined -14. Hemsky, the team's point leader (points do tend to get you just a FEW extra pluses after all), was only a +1. How many minutes did Hemsky play on our terrible PK this year? Cause Horcoff had the highest Short Handed time on ice per game. +7 also happens to be a tie for team lead for +/-. So, leading the way on one of the league's worst PK's, he still manages to have the best +/- on the team. You're right, this guy is really starting to sound like a huge bum!

He's getting 5.5 for doing everything. Zetterberg is getting 7.5, and gets a whopping 23 more points than Horcoff this season. And people are bitching because Horcoff isn't a PPG player? Could his offense be better? Damn right, he's getting some of the best feeds in the league courtesy of Hemsky. He should have far more goals than he does.

But he is a first line center of the higher caliber. If he is finally able to overcome his injury and start to put in more point production, to the tune of a point per game, not only will he not be overpaid, he'll be one of the better deals in the NHL.

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#88 Poochie
July 04 2009, 06:07PM
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@ GLoKz0r:

The PK doesn't count towards +/-. Sorry if I misread, it just sounds like you are saying that it does. And Horcoff is a decent first line centre, he is what he is.

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#89 jt in Oilertown
July 04 2009, 06:38PM
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@ GLoKz0r:

Shawn Horcoff's agent, everyone. Give him a big round of applause...

Seriously, though, I agree with you. I'd be hard pressed to come up with 30 better centers in the league. Is he top 10? No, of course not. Let's take a look at the league's #1 centers (IMO). I'm using the positions and cap hits listed on nhlnumbers.com:

Anaheim - Getzlaf - $5.325m Atlanta - White - $2.375m Boston - Savard - $5m Buffalo - Roy - $4m Carolina - Staal - $8.25m Calgary - Jokinen - $5.25m Chicago - Toews - $2.8m Columbus - Umberger - $3.75m Colorado - Stastny - $6.6m Dallas - Richards - $7.8m Detroit - Datsyuk - $6.7m Florida - Horton - $4m Los Angeles - Kopitar - $6.8m Minnesota - Bouchard - $4.08m OR Koivu - $3.25m Montreal - Gomez - $7.357m Nashville - Legwand - $4.5m OR Arnott - $4.5m New Jersey - Parise - $3.125m NY Islanders - Weight - $2.2m, NY Rangers - Drury - $7.05m Ottawa - Spezza - $7m Philadelphia - Briere - $6.5m OR Richards - $5.75m OR Carter - $5m Phoenix - Turris - $2.696m OR Lombardi - $1.817m Pittsburgh - Crosby/Malkin - $8.7m each San Jose - Thornton - $7.2m or Marleau - $6.3m St. Louis - McDonald - $4.7m Tampa Bay - Lecavalier - $7.727m Toronto - Grabovski - $2.9m Vancouver - Sedin - $6.1m Washington - Backstrom - $2.4m I’ve bolded the ones that Horcoff is better than (IMO) – there’s nine of them. The common thread – Horcoff makes anywhere from $1-3m more then all of them. There are a couple of teams (Pitt/Phi/SJ) with an embarrassment of riches in the middle, and a few with great deals - Parise, Toews, Backstrom (although the last two will be getting hefty raises next summer). There’s also a few that could be open to debate – is Horcoff better than Roy? Jokinen? Gomez? Drury? He’s a number one center, to be sure – probably somewhere around 19-23 in the league. Unfortunately, 19th place is three spots out of the playoffs. But the last time I checked, your top center isn’t solely responsible for a team’s performance. And just think – he produced those numbers last year at $3.6m. He has to be $1.9m better this year, right? Right?? RIGHT???

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#90 GLoKz0r
July 04 2009, 07:21PM
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Poochie wrote:

@ GLoKz0r: The PK doesn’t count towards +/-. Sorry if I misread, it just sounds like you are saying that it does. And Horcoff is a decent first line centre, he is what he is.

Wow... despite my level of obsessiveness when it comes to Hockey, I honestly did not know that. Colour me learned.

Thanks for the correction.

@ jt in Oilertown:

Heh, and he's not even my favorite player, either. If you want to see me sell a player, let's talk Hemsky ;)

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#91 Robin Brownlee
July 04 2009, 07:43PM
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Little fury wrote:

Robin Brownlee wrote: This is about the arena. Don’t drag Heatley into it. Yeah because Katz and Tambo’s relentless and Quixotic pursuit of a 50 goal marquee player has absolutely nothing to do with selling a new rink. No sirree.

As usual, the humour and crux of my comment is lost on you or, at the very least, eclipsed by your desire to drive-by and take another shot at me. Just can't help youself, can you?

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#92 jeanshorts
July 04 2009, 07:51PM
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@ GLoKz0r:

Yeah, but he didn't score 93 goals last season while posting a 1.23 GAA. So clearly he's pretty much worthless. Glorified AHL player really.

I'll admit I do get incredibly frusturated everytime he whiffs on a wide open net after Hemsky dekes through the entire other team, but I'm willing to give him a pass, considering the bajillion reasons you pointed out as to why he's not shitanusly terrible.

5.5 is pocket change. It could be WAY worse. We could be paying Scott Gomez 8 mill a year.

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#93 MattL
July 04 2009, 07:57PM
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@ jt in Oilertown: @ GLoKz0r:

Yes, thanks for listing all the 1st line C's. I agree with your assessment, although I'd probably take Spezza over Horcoff. And oddly enough, he generally fits in salary-wise with other players above and below his talent level.

@ Archaeologuy:

I think 5.5 isn't that bad because he's a 3 million dollar defensive forward and a 3 million dollar offensive player, combined, which don't grow on trees. Guys like the old Peca, and Shane Doan.

I mean, it's not like we ever had a chance at drafting Shane Doan, right?

*shudder*

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#94 Zamboni Driver
July 04 2009, 08:14PM
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@ jeanshorts:

Good lord. This crap again?

IT IS SEVEN MIL that is what payday will say, which renders him a completely immovable asset. no one on earth, saving his grunting buddy would pay anywhere near that.

i don't begrudge him for the dough. Good for him....bad for us. Very good that Lowe no longer has his insane hands on the contract pen.

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#95 jeanshorts
July 04 2009, 08:31PM
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@ Zamboni Driver:

Come on guy, Cap Hit is the only thing we have to worry about. If the 837 person EIG was still running the show then it would be an issue. Not with Katz though. Guaranteed he spent 2 mill on haircuts last year.

The contract is a little inflated, but a 5.5 and declining cap hit over the next 6 years for a solid 2 way centerman who takes 99 percent of the teams faceoffs is pretty easy for to swallow, at least for me personally.

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#96 jt in Oilertown
July 04 2009, 08:34PM
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@ MattL:

Damn - I knew I'd screw up on the boldface code....

Drury, Spezza, and Philly's trifecta shouldn't be in boldface. Drury could be argued, while Spezza and the Philly trio are clearly better options.

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#97 erixon
July 04 2009, 09:31PM
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@ Robin Brownlee:

Hey Robin, been meaning to ask, hows your kid been making out with the sickness?

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#98 JonW
July 04 2009, 09:52PM
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bingofuel wrote:

@ Sweet Jimmy K: The buildings across from the Shaw on Jasper, though dilapidated, are heritage buildings. Can’t tear them down, so I think the plan is to wait for leases to expire, move some of the sktechy businesses out of there, then refurbish the old buildings. An arena couldn’t be built there without a lot of legal wrangling, I think. Someone who’s smarter, correct me if I’m wrong.

Bingofuel

Having worked a bit with the area in question you are correct, some of those buildings will not be torn down. The Quarters (as the area has been called) is to be redeveloped (eventually) into a mid class urban area rather than the delapatated nightmare it is now.

But some of those buildings cannot be moved. The just need new owners. Most of the area now is owned by various social agencies which is not exactly drawing the mid class residency.

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#99 JonW
July 04 2009, 09:54PM
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oh btw the area in question is closer to reality than rumour, to be renamed the Arena District and have links to the Nait LRT track.

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#100 Ogden Brother
July 04 2009, 09:58PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

The Horcoff discussion will never end. He is overpaid. Perhaps by as much as 1.5 million per season. He had 1 good season, destroyed his shoulder, then signed a massive contract. Over the last 4 years he might average .78 points per game, but since undergoing major shoulder surgery he has averaged just 0.66. So what does roughly 1.5 million dollars translate to? For just a little more its Ruslan Fedotenko: 1.8 a season, 0.6 points per game, on pace for 20 goals over 82 games last season. Chad LaRose: 1.7 a season. 19 goals last season. Mark Recchi: 1 a season. 23 goals 61 points Fiddler: 1.1 a season 54.1 faceoff %. bottom six player. 1.5 wont get the Oilers the next “Great One” but 1.5 CAN be used to acquire a solid player that can contribute to some of the team’s needs, like tougher D-Men, Faceoff winning 3rd liners, and penalty killers. So no, the “slight” overpayment to Horc wont sink the team but it does translate directly to lost opportunities to acquire better players. I doubt Horc will ever be the same player he was once capable of being and his contract will likely prevent the Oilers from upgrading the C position.

I'm really shocked you still don't get it, cap room is not what keeps top end talent from coming here.

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