Time With Ales Hemsky/Alexander Ovechkin – Debunking the Liam Reddox Myth

Jonathan Willis
July 30 2009 08:24AM

This is a pretty straight-forward post, inspired by some discussion in Jason Gregor’s post yesterday: a list of minutes played with Ales Hemsky by Oilers forwards over the course of the season.

All raw data courtesy of HockeyAnalysis.com.

Ales Hemsky’s Linemates

The chart lists first total minutes, followed by what percentage of the time each player was with Hemsky. Ales Hemsky played 1030 minutes and 23 seconds at even-strength last year. Only players with more than ten minutes are counted.

  • Shawn Horcoff - 745:02 (72.3%)
  • Dustin Penner – 353:46 (34.3%)
  • Ales Kotalik – 161:37 (15.7%)
  • Sam Gagner – 152:09 (14.8%)
  • Ethan Moreau - 134:49 (13.1%)
  • Erik Cole – 97:57 (9.5%)
  • Robert Nilsson – 94:47 (9.2%)
  • Patrick O’Sullivan – 89:42 (8.7%)
  • Andrew Cogliano – 72:34 (7.0%)
  • Kyle Brodziak – 55:59 (5.4%)
  • Liam Reddox – 28:01 (2.7%)
  • Marc Pouliot – 17:44 (1.7%)

Alexander Ovechkin’s Linemates

Meanwhile, for fun contrast, here’s the same type of chart for Alexander Ovechkin over in Washington. Ovechkin played 1316:11 at even strength last season.

  • Nicklas Backstrom – 1009:52 (76.7%)
  • Viktor Kozlov – 557:09 (42.3%)
  • Alexander Semin – 365:22 (27.8%)
  • Sergei Fedorov – 184:29 (14.0%)
  • Michael Nylander – 130:50 (9.9%)
  • Eric Fehr – 79:46 (6.1%)
  • Chris Clark – 59:59 (4.6%)
  • Brooks Laich – 52:20 (4.0%)
  • Boyd Gordon – 40:45 (3.1%)
  • David Steckel – 40:30 (3.1%)
  • Matt Bradley – 40:02 (3.0%)

The New MacT Sucks Meme

Because Lord knows we need one.

I give you a new stick to beat MacTavish with: Craig MacTavish is a lousy NHL coach because he didn’t play Liam Reddox with Ales Hemsky enough.

Matt Bradley got 3% of Alex Ovechkin’s ice-time, and he only scored 11 points in 81 games. Liam Reddox scored 12 points in only 46 games – clearly, a better offensive record. Bruce Boudreau probably would have given Reddox 5% of Ovechkin’s ice-time.

Seriously, though, I think this is definitive: Liam Reddox’s single game on the top line was an aberration – exactly the same kind of aberration that happens on every team in the NHL.  To beat Craig MacTavish’s record with it after comparing these charts is indescribably stupid; unless the consensus is that Bruce Boudreau is also a lousy coach – in which case it only takes a five second look at players like Rick Nash and Henrik Zetterberg to know that this is a common NHL occurrence.

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Jonathan Willis is a freelance writer. He currently works for Oilers Nation, Sportsnet, the Edmonton Journal and Bleacher Report. He's co-written three books and worked for myriad websites, including Grantland, ESPN, The Score, and Hockey Prospectus. He was previously the founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue.
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#101 Cam
July 30 2009, 04:19PM
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All this talk of playing Moreau or Pisani in better positions stems from MacT trying to create incentive for his lazy ass offensive minded players to get motivated. He was trying to reward "jam" so that the other forwards would get going.

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#102 rindog
July 30 2009, 04:22PM
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@ Cam: I repeat....

Where did that get us???

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#103 ScubaSteve
July 30 2009, 04:22PM
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Asciutto wrote:

who MacT did not want to put in the PvP situation

And there is the crux of the argument. It's not Brule "couldn't" or Penner "wasn't good enough" or anything to do with that, it was that MacT "didn't want" to give anyone besides his safety guys a shot.

A top line that scores 21 and lets in 14 is preferable to a top line that scores 3 and lets in 2. Agree?

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#104 smiliegirl15
July 30 2009, 04:23PM
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Asciutto wrote:

We’re looking for a RW Most of those guys aren’t

No actually we're looking for a 1LW as Hemsky is our 1RW - you do remember Hemsky don't you? And if you're refering to when Hemsky was injured and we needed a replacement 1RW I believe we still had Cole at that point. When Cole was traded we had Kotalik to play RW as well.

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#105 rindog
July 30 2009, 04:25PM
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@ Cam:

I don't see how screwing up all 4 lines helps your team.

If he really wanted to send a message, he would have played his "jam" players more (as a line) rather than try to play them in roles that did not suit their game.

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#106 OvenChicken8
July 30 2009, 04:27PM
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Asciutto wrote:

“Hmmmm, Penner, Cogs, Nilsson, even Poo or Potulny would be a better choice.” We’re looking for a RW Most of those guys aren’t And You can’t prove who would’ve been the best replacement for an injured Hemsky. As I recall, the options, without breaking up the other lines, were Reddox, the utility guy or Brule, who MacT did not want to put in the PvP situation

What the hell is PvP? :S

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#107 OvenChicken8
July 30 2009, 04:29PM
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smiliegirl15 wrote:

No actually we’re looking for a 1LW as Hemsky is our 1RW - you do remember Hemsky don’t you? And if you’re refering to when Hemsky was injured and we needed a replacement 1RW I believe we still had Cole at that point. When Cole was traded we had Kotalik to play RW as well.

He probably is just taking Quinn's word that Hemsky is a Center lol.

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#108 Ogden Brother
July 30 2009, 04:43PM
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rindog wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: Ogden Brother wrote: Your right, when Datsyuk was hurt you didn’t see Draper taking his place, you seen Abdelkader. Yeah a guy (Abdelkader) that had put up 227 points in 212 games before turning pro. He would seem somewhat more suited to replace an offensive player than a guy like Draper or Moreau -wouldn’t you think?

Umm, no.

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#109 MattL
July 30 2009, 04:44PM
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@ rindog:

Hard to say where it got us. Obviously the Oil missed the playoffs, but you can't really say what would have happened if he'd chosen to ride the lazy Penner. Maybe he would have produced, and maybe it would have demoralized the rest of the team. Obviously you think it was a bad idea, I don't mind it for a few games, but not to the extent Moreau was up there.

Just like Tobey Peterson. I liked the message sending, but MacT took it too far, for too long.

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#110 Ogden Brother
July 30 2009, 04:45PM
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rindog wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: rindog wrote: Yeah a guy (Abdelkader) that had put up 227 points in 212 games before turning pro. I know you might want to rebut that Moreau put up good numbers in junior as well. You are right. However, Moreau has also had 13 years to prove he is not/can not be an offensive player at the NHL level. Abdelkader had/has yet to prove that he won’t produce at this level. Which be default; makes him a good (or atleast better) choice to replace an offensive player rather than a guy (Draper/Moreau) that the coach knows can not fill that role.

You seem to be missing the point, all teams do this.

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#111 Death Metal Nightmare
July 30 2009, 04:53PM
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i can haz box of Mac-T for dinner?

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#112 Jonathan Willis
July 30 2009, 05:00PM
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@ OvenChicken8:

PvP = power vs. power.

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#113 Asciutto
July 30 2009, 06:05PM
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"No actually we’re looking for a 1LW as Hemsky is our 1RW - you do remember Hemsky don’t you?"

Its like throwing a rock in a pond of stupid and watching the rings Stagger outwards to infinity. Wow.

NO We were talking about when Hemsky was hurt. You do remember Hemsky, given a cheap shot concussion from a pipsqueek Predator just after Christmas? This is when Reddox got most of his minutes with Horcoff. At this same time, Cole & Gagner were, at least in theory, getting it together together. MacT, fired Oiler coach, felt, wrongly perhaps, that Reddox was a better choice for the POWER vs POWER matchup than Brule. Also, preferable to breaking up the Cole-Gagner combo. MacT, fired Oiler coach, felt, wrongly perhaps, that Reddox was a better choice for the POWER vs POWER matchup than Brule. ALso, preferable to breaking up the Cole-Gagner combo.

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#114 ScubaSteve
July 30 2009, 07:49PM
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Asciutto wrote:

MacT, fired Oiler coach, felt, wrongly perhaps, that Reddox was a better choice for the POWER vs POWER matchup than Brule.

How is any line with Reddox on it a POWER line? And if it's not, how are you matching POWER v POWER?

As soon as the first line got a AHL player on it, it stopped being a POWER line, something our fired coach could not understand.

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#115 Jonathan Willis
July 30 2009, 08:21PM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

How is any line with Reddox on it a POWER line? And if it’s not, how are you matching POWER v POWER? As soon as the first line got a AHL player on it, it stopped being a POWER line, something our fired coach could not understand.

I'm quite certain that Mike Babcock and the Detroit Red Wings would have disagreed with you right about the time Brad Winchester scored that trifling little goal in 2006.

I didn't agree with the Reddox move at the time and I don't now, but there was rationale.

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#116 myteammytown
July 30 2009, 09:17PM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

Asciutto wrote: MacT, fired Oiler coach, felt, wrongly perhaps, that Reddox was a better choice for the POWER vs POWER matchup than Brule. How is any line with Reddox on it a POWER line? And if it’s not, how are you matching POWER v POWER? As soon as the first line got a AHL player on it, it stopped being a POWER line, something our fired coach could not understand.

you honestly think mact and the crew were completely oblivious to something that meatheads on an internet message board have all figured out?

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#117 rindog
July 30 2009, 10:46PM
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It seems to me that some people are missing the point. I watched every game - I know that Reddox didn't get alot of shifts on the topline even though he was penciled in that spot for a few games. MacT started him there and filled the spot by committee. It's the fact that MacT couldn't come up with a better game plan prior to the start of the game that hilites his flaws as a head coach.

If MacT could honestly look at his roster and think that Reddox was the best player to put in that spot - it tells us alot?

The point I am trying to make is that if MacT wouldn't have been so brutal at identifying what types of players fit into certain roles - we would have had a much more consistent season.

Ogden Brother wrote:

You seem to be missing the point, all teams do this.

All teams do what? Fill in a a first line winger spot with an unproven 3rd/4th line checker? Please give me one example of other "good" coaches doing this?

Babcock DID NOT put Abdelkader in that spot for his shutdown ability. He saw a junior scorer and gave him a chance to produce at the NHL level.

Jonathan Willis wrote:

I’m quite certain that Mike Babcock and the Detroit Red Wings would have disagreed with you right about the time Brad Winchester scored that trifling little goal in 2006.

It is not like Winchester was put on the first line for the duration. He was moved there for a bit of energy for the very short term. If you will remember; Winchester didn't play a single game after the SJ series.

Ogden Brother wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: Ogden Brother wrote: Your right, when Datsyuk was hurt you didn’t see Draper taking his place, you seen Abdelkader. Yeah a guy (Abdelkader) that had put up 227 points in 212 games before turning pro. He would seem somewhat more suited to replace an offensive player than a guy like Draper or Moreau -wouldn’t you think? Umm, no.

Are you saying that Babcock should have used Draper instead of Abdelkader?

MattL wrote:

@ rindog: Hard to say where it got us. Obviously the Oil missed the playoffs, but you can’t really say what would have happened if he’d chosen to ride the lazy Penner. Maybe he would have produced, and maybe it would have demoralized the rest of the team. Obviously you think it was a bad idea, I don’t mind it for a few games, but not to the extent Moreau was up there. Just like Tobey Peterson. I liked the message sending, but MacT took it too far, for too long.

That is the point I have been trying to make. There were far better options at MacT's disposal. But instead of making smart hockey decisions, MacT (as he always does) relied on a safe player to try and "defend" his way to victory...

A strategy that caused us to play "catch-up" almost every single game.

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#118 Cam
July 30 2009, 10:52PM
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@ rindog:

It obviously didn't work... I am not defending MacT, merely stating what I think his strategy was.

I don't think he thought Moreau was a first line guy (which is what some people were seeming to think), but he thought using Moreau like that could inspire them his first line guys. He had no intentions of keeping those guys there indefinitely... just long enough to make a point... and perhaps lose us a season.

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#119 ScubaSteve
July 30 2009, 11:02PM
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myteammytown wrote:

you honestly think mact and the crew were completely oblivious to something that meatheads on an internet message board have all figured out?

Would you like me to answer this based on team results, or individual player results? Because both point to the same answer.

Oh, and drop the meathead comment, you want respect, you have to show respect.

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#120 rindog
July 30 2009, 11:10PM
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@ Cam:

I think that is the biggest problem with most fans...trying to understand MacT's strategy is almost impossible.

I hate to say it because it sounds petty; but I don't think MacT has any business being a HEAD coach in the NHL. I DO NOT think for one second he has/had the knowledge or experience to be head coach when he got the job. I also think that heading into each season with MacT as our coach - there were 26-28 teams that had an advantage in the coaching department FOR SURE!

I know it sounds childish - but I still haven't had one single person tell me what Craig MacTavish did better than anyone else?

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#121 DanMan
July 30 2009, 11:37PM
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smiliegirl15 wrote:

I agree though, that MacT played bottom 6 players in the top 6 at the expense of the top 6 guys. He had his own agenda last season and didn’t seem to care about the team as a whole. It seemed to be more about personal issues with certain players.

This is the kinda stuff that makes me really excited to see the Oilers under a new head coach

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#122 DanMan
July 30 2009, 11:46PM
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rindog wrote:

Why could most of us armchair coaches see it and MacTavish couldn’t?

Because MacT was stubborn, largely used certain players as pawns to make examples out of Penner and others.

MacT actually had a quiet arrogance about him that rubbed me the wrong way. I still remember a presser during a day off in the 06 final. A media guy asked if he thought of putting Laraque out on the PP (which was horrible 0/20 or something). MacT smirked and said "no, I don't think we will be doing something like that".

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#123 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 12:17AM
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rindog wrote:

Babcock DID NOT put Abdelkader in that spot for his shutdown ability. He saw a junior scorer and gave him a chance to produce at the NHL level.

You should dig a little deeper, Reddox's numbers jr/AHL numbers are at least as impressive as Abdelkader. Also, Babcock did it in the SCF, you don't just "give a guy a chance" in the SCF... especially on a team with that much depth (RE: Options)

"You seem to be missing the point, all teams do this. All teams do what? Fill in a a first line winger spot with an unproven 3rd/4th line checker? Please give me one example of other “good” coaches doing this?"

You seen the list on this blog... I'll break out a few examples of plugs who played with stars for you:

First our control

Hemsky:

Reddox: 28 Brodziak: 55 MAP: 17

Getzlaf:

Brown: 11 Pahlson: 16 Parros: 22 R Nieds: 49 Christiansen: 64

Kovalchuk:

Reasoner: 208 Perin: 95 Crab: 18

Savard:

Thorton: 33 Bitz: 10 Yelle: 18

Vanek:

Gaustad: 27 Heatch: 156 Mair: 37

Iggy:

Nystrom: 36 Roy: 14 Boyd: 107

E Stall:

Eaves: 79 Bayda: 66 Walker: 24

Kane:

Eager: 65 Burrish: 16 Fasher: 28

Statny:(only played 45 games)

Jones: 27 Tucker: 20 Lapperier: 16

Nash:

Torres: 27 Murray: 19 Chimera: 87

Riberio:

Barch: 47 Parrish: 105 Connor: 44

Datsyuk:

Draper: 24 Maltby: 27 CLEARY: 241

Booth:

Kreps: 57 Mclean: 60 Steward: 30

Kopitar:

Armstrong: 19 Purcell: 154 Calder: 249

M Koivu:

Veilleux: 86 Gillies: 26 Clutterbuck: 83

Kovalev:

Kostopolis: 45 Metropolite: 16 Dandenault: 36

So theirs the best player on half the teams in the league... I'm confident that other half looks the same, see a trend?

I think it's safe to assume you haven't watched 82 games of every team in the league... so the question is: Do you think all of those minutes all those plugs played with those top players were due to injuries, line changes or other line-up disruptions... or do you think maybe juuussstt maybe, their coaches conciously put them out together???

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#124 DanMan
July 31 2009, 12:56AM
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@ Ogden Brother:

Thats not the point of what the anti-MacT contingent is talking about, this is:

Shawn Horcoff - 745:02 (72.3%) Dustin Penner – 353:46 (34.3%) Ales Kotalik – 161:37 (15.7%) Sam Gagner – 152:09 (14.8%) Ethan Moreau - 134:49 (13.1%) Erik Cole – 97:57 (9.5%) Robert Nilsson – 94:47 (9.2%) Patrick O’Sullivan – 89:42 (8.7%) Andrew Cogliano – 72:34 (7.0%) Kyle Brodziak – 55:59 (5.4%) Liam Reddox – 28:01 (2.7%) Marc Pouliot – 17:44 (1.7%)

The mix is is much more ridiculous than any top players you have mentioned.

This is not normal

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#125 myteammytown
July 31 2009, 07:31AM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

Would you like me to answer this based on team results, or individual player results? Because both point to the same answer. Oh, and drop the meathead comment, you want respect, you have to show respect

dont waste your time, i have my answer already.

im not disgreeing mact was at fault for what transpired over the year.

i am, however, going on the assumption that most of the people on this board have zero pro coaching experience and zero pro hockey experience(myself included).

if i am incorrect in the assumption, i apologize

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#126 Jonathan Willis
July 31 2009, 08:17AM
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DanMan wrote:

The mix is is much more ridiculous than any top players you have mentioned. This is not normal

Actually, it is normal. MacTavish is a shockingly normal NHL coach, if you keep an eye on what's happening in other cities.

Now, as one of the officers on the good ship H.M.S Penner Should Have Been On The First Line I'm not going to argue that the revolving door on LW was a good idea. On the other hand, many others have a lower opinion of Penner than I (including MacT) so that's hardly an absolute.

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#127 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 09:19AM
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DanMan wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: Thats not the point of what the anti-MacT contingent is talking about, this is: Shawn Horcoff - 745:02 (72.3%) Dustin Penner – 353:46 (34.3%) Ales Kotalik – 161:37 (15.7%) Sam Gagner – 152:09 (14.8%) Ethan Moreau - 134:49 (13.1%) Erik Cole – 97:57 (9.5%) Robert Nilsson – 94:47 (9.2%) Patrick O’Sullivan – 89:42 (8.7%) Andrew Cogliano – 72:34 (7.0%) Kyle Brodziak – 55:59 (5.4%) Liam Reddox – 28:01 (2.7%) Marc Pouliot – 17:44 (1.7%) The mix is is much more ridiculous than any top players you have mentioned. This is not normal

Is this a joke? You really nailed home your point with the when you said "The mix is much more ridiculous than any top players you have mentioned" Great proof!

I see JW has already addressed, but I'm bored so I'll put a few examples down just to close off the point.

Kovalchuk: 1241 min played

White - 38% Little - 34% Williams - 25% Thorburn - 18% (all of 15 points this year) Peverly - 17% REASONER - 17% Christianson - 16% Armstrong - 15% Perrin - 7% Slater - 4% Kozlov - 3% Crab - 1.5%

And a couple other scrubs that played less then 10 min

Iggy 1339 Min played

Cammy - 50% Conroy - 29% Bert - 24% Lombardi - 20% Jokenin - 20% Langkow - 13% GlenX - 12% Boyd - 8% Borque - 8% Nystrom - 2.5% Roy - 1%

And then a few scubs with less

Thorton - 1270 Min played

Marleau - 64% Seteguchi - 61% Cheecho - 20% Roenik - 11% (all of 42 points combined for Cheecho/Roenik) Clowe - 10% Michalek 6% McGin 4% (All of 6 points) Grier 4% Kasper 3% (and he only played 13 games with the Sharks) Moen 3% Shelly 3% Pihal 2% Pavelski 2% Staubitz 2% Lemieux 2%

Datsyuk 1102 Min played

Homstrom - 47% Hossa - 44% Franzen 27% Zetts 26% Cleary 22% Samuelson 9% Filpula 6% Kopecy 6% Hudler 3% Maltby 3% Draper 2$

Kopitar 1239 Min played

Brown 50% O'sully 35% Frolov 32% Purcell 12% (he only played 40 games) Williams 10% Simmonds 9% Moulson 5% (and he played all of 7 games... for the guy wondering about AHL'er with no offense going straight to the top line) Handzus 5% Lewis 4% (he played all of 6 games... again for the guy wondering about AHL'ers going to line 1) Ivanans 3% Moller 3% Armstrong 2% Stoll 1.5%

Pretty much case closed, MacT used his lines in roughly the same way as his peers.

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#128 oilerdiehard
July 31 2009, 09:49AM
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Even if you are a big MacT supporter (I think he is a good X and O's sort of guy and would make a fantastic assistant NHL coach). I do not see how anyone can deny that he prone to making strange and perplexing personnel decisions. He just ramped it up in his final season but it was always there IMO.

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#129 ScubaSteve
July 31 2009, 10:21AM
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@ Ogden Brother:

~Yes, of course you are right, MacT was a good coach, because other coaches do the same things as he does.~

I understand you're a big MacT supporter, but tell me, what does he bring to the table? The only thing I see is the ability to ruin young careers and develop 3rd line pluggers.

I dare you to show me one thing that MacT excels at.

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#130 rindog
July 31 2009, 10:22AM
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@ Ogden Brother:

I am not denying that other coaches put their best players with "energy" guys at times.

My point is, most other coaches do not do it at the expense of top line players. They give the top liners additional minutes with the so called "pluggers".

In the case of Reddox - there were much better options available to MacTavish on the current roster let alone going to the minors to find a temporary replacement.

If in the case of Abdelkader, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Babcock (he seems to have a pretty good track record of success as a head coach). I also didn't watch every Detroit game last year so I don't know what other options were available to Babcock (or if he tried all other options already?).

I did however watch all the Oilers games and feel very confident in saying that MacT has had little or no success as a head coach and his decisions should be questioned...

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#131 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 10:36AM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: ~Yes, of course you are right, MacT was a good coach, because other coaches do the same things as he does.~ I understand you’re a big MacT supporter, but tell me, what does he bring to the table? The only thing I see is the ability to ruin young careers and develop 3rd line pluggers. I dare you to show me one thing that MacT excels at.

I'm not saying he's a good coach, I'm saying he uses his players in the same fashion that all (most) of his peers do (the whole topic of this convo)

And ya, if he handles his roster the same way that his peers do, that means he is making the right decisions, otherwise you are saying all coaches are making the wrong decisions with their teams.

In other words you are saying: Scubasteve > The collective braintrust of the NHL when it comes to managing a line-up.

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#132 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 10:39AM
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rindog wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: I am not denying that other coaches put their best players with “energy” guys at times. My point is, most other coaches do not do it at the expense of top line players.
And my point is that you have no idea as to whether this is the case or not, you do not watch every team 82 times so you do not know the little nuances that don't show up in the highlight reels. You don't know when Hitch sends out his plugs with Nash, you don't know when Bacock sent out his plugs with Datsyuk. The best we have is the TOI evedence presented... and it all points very clearly to the fact they all (most) NHL coaches do in fact mix and match thier line-up.
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#133 ScubaSteve
July 31 2009, 11:29AM
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@ Ogden Brother:

That's not at all what I'm saying, what I am saying is that just because MacT mixes his line-ups doesn't mean he made the right moves. Penner was clearly the best option for 1LW. Even with a poor work ethic, he gave the team the best chance to win. If you want to teach someone a lesson, teach it during practice, not in the game where it affects the team as a whole. The results are more important than personal feelings.

Again, I dare you to show me what MacT excels at? and now it's a double dog dare.

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#134 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 11:49AM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: That’s not at all what I’m saying, what I am saying is that just because MacT mixes his line-ups doesn’t mean he made the right moves. Penner was clearly the best option for 1LW. Even with a poor work ethic, he gave the team the best chance to win.

And Little/White were the best option to play with Kovalchuk yet Reasoner played 200 minutes with him

And Langkow was the best option to center Iggy yet Conrey spent more time with Iggy then Langkow did

And Marleau/Settiguchi/Clowe/Michealak were the best optoins to play with Thorton yet Jeremy Ronenick played over 100 min with Big Joe

And St Louis was the best option to play with Vinny Yet Artuykin spent 75 minutes with Vclav.

Honestly, you don't have a leg to stand on, on this point.

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#135 smiliegirl15
July 31 2009, 12:24PM
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Asciutto wrote:

Its like throwing a rock in a pond of stupid and watching the rings Stagger outwards to infinity. Wow.

~Nice~

This article is about minutes played WITH Ales Hemsky, not without him. You seem to be the only one arguing this point of Reddox taking Hemsky's place on the first line. Regardless of which wing he played on the top line and with whom, Reddox on the top line was still not the best decision MacTavish had, yet he chose to make it anyway.

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#136 cableguy
July 31 2009, 04:18PM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: That’s not at all what I’m saying, what I am saying is that just because MacT mixes his line-ups doesn’t mean he made the right moves. Penner was clearly the best option for 1LW. Even with a poor work ethic, he gave the team the best chance to win. If you want to teach someone a lesson, teach it during practice, not in the game where it affects the team as a whole. The results are more important than personal feelings. Again, I dare you to show me what MacT excels at? and now it’s a double dog dare.

how do you know that tactic wasnt tried, more than once, with penner during the season?

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#137 ScubaSteve
July 31 2009, 07:22PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

And Little/White were the best option to play with Kovalchuk yet Reasoner played 200 minutes with him And Langkow was the best option to center Iggy yet Conrey spent more time with Iggy then Langkow did And Marleau/Settiguchi/Clowe/Michealak were the best optoins to play with Thorton yet Jeremy Ronenick played over 100 min with Big Joe And St Louis was the best option to play with Vinny Yet Artuykin spent 75 minutes with Vclav.

I concede your point, but I'll wager not many of these examples were benched (to the detriment of the team) while the plugs were taking their place. Either way, I'm not convinced that MacT was a good coach.

@ cableguy:

I don't care, you don't put personal feelings ahead of the team's success. Which is what happened a number of times. see: Moreau, Ethan and Reddox, Liam.

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#138 Ogden Brother
July 31 2009, 11:33PM
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ScubaSteve wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: And Little/White were the best option to play with Kovalchuk yet Reasoner played 200 minutes with him And Langkow was the best option to center Iggy yet Conrey spent more time with Iggy then Langkow did And Marleau/Settiguchi/Clowe/Michealak were the best optoins to play with Thorton yet Jeremy Ronenick played over 100 min with Big Joe And St Louis was the best option to play with Vinny Yet Artuykin spent 75 minutes with Vclav. I concede your point, but I’ll wager not many of these examples were benched (to the detriment of the team) while the plugs were taking their place. Either way, I’m not convinced that MacT was a good coach. @ cableguy: I don’t care, you don’t put personal feelings ahead of the team’s success. Which is what happened a number of times. see: Moreau, Ethan and Reddox, Liam.

Just for an example, Kovalev and Jason Blake have both been healthy scratches in the last couple of years, and I would be plugs filled in.

Same idea, higher end guys that just weren't getting it done, either effort or result wise.

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