Dreaming

Lowetide
October 13 2010 05:08PM

Patience is required in order to let things develop in their own time, especially when it comes to youth. One minute kids are failing again and again, the next minute they've mastered the discipline and moved to a new level. When it comes to predicting hockey players and their futures, patience is a vital part of the plan.

I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the msm early this season. Although patient with the three kids, comments like "it is time for Sam Gagner to step up and I didn't see it tonight" and "this is Gagner's chance and despite the two points he hasn't impressed" have been sliding into our living rooms and vehicles via television and radio.

Deep breath. We need to remember that everyone drafted 2006+ is (or should be) considered a developing player or prospect. Jeff Petry (drafted in 2006) is just starting his pro hockey career, Sam Gagner (drafted in 2007) is 21 years, 2 months old. There are miles to go before the race is run.

If we go back to the beginning, we can re-set the expectations: Gare Joyce, in his wonderful book Future Greats and Heartbreaks:

  • On the morning of the draft, there's all kinds of cross-talk and scuttle-butt about Columbus's plans for the 7th overall pick. One thing is certain: The Blue Jackets would feel much better about their pick if it were sixth, and all the more so at No. 4 or No. 3. The way the Blue Jackets and a lot of other teams see it, there's an elite group of six draft-elgibiles: Patrick Kane, James van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris, Sam Gagner, Jakub Voracek and Karl Alzner. After this group, there's a significant fall-off. Last year, the Bue Jackets ranked seven players "top 10's." This year, just six made the grade.

A "top ten" was defined early in the book as a possible draft pick who could be a difference maker, someone who could develop into a first line NHL player, maybe an All-Star, definitely someone who can contribute to a winning team.I think we need to place Gagner in that context, a top flight young player who can contribute to a winning team. He certainly helped on October 22, 2009 and he can help this season too. However, we need to be patient with him. Prospects don't develop in parallel lines with past HOFers, they take their own path based on all kinds of factors (including quality of team).

I think this comes from the idea that in being patient with the three kids up front it will fall to others to lead the way. I agree. Shawn Horcoff, Dustin Penner, Ales Hemsky, those men are completely capable of having a consistent impact on the team (positively) pretty much every night. I believe Sam Gagner will get there. But expecting him to develop into that 1line C overnight (as if turning on a switch) is unreasonable.

If "Sam Gagner isn't developing as I hoped" then perhaps you need to examine whether or not your hopes are reasonable. How much of the offense is vanRiemsdyk carrying in Philly? Voracek in Columbus? The Edmonton Oilers have chosen to fast track yet another generation of kids. That's not Sam Gagner's fault. I think he'll continue to develop and should pass the 50-point mark this season. If you're looking for 70 points from him, I'd suggest that is beyond reason. According to nhl.com, exactly 15 centermen had 70 or more points last season, while 43 had 50 or more points.

I think Sam Gagner should end up in that group of men over 50 points this season, but 70 seems a stretch. With that in mind, I think pointing to Gagner after 2 games as an underachiever borders on the ridiculous.

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
Avatar
#101 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 10:20PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

"No, he wouldn't put up good #'s on a good team, because you can't have a good team with Gagne as its #1 centre thats an oximoron."

Keep throwing out those unsuported positions of yours Shadi!!

Avatar
#102 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 10:21PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

The team is weak at centre so the solution is to get rid of the best young centre on the team?

Uh...come again?

Hey why not, we can get a defensive prospect for him.

Avatar
#103 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 10:27PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

sure, defensive prospects routinely pan-out faster than forwards, and the blue chippers are given away all the time. It's most likely that some random prospect will totally become a more impactful player than Gagner.

Avatar
#104 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 10:34PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

sure, defensive prospects routinely pan-out faster than forwards, and the blue chippers are given away all the time. It's most likely that some random prospect will totally become a more impactful player than Gagner.

~~~~

Avatar
#105 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 10:35PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

indeed

Avatar
#106 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 10:39PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

sure, defensive prospects routinely pan-out faster than forwards, and the blue chippers are given away all the time. It's most likely that some random prospect will totally become a more impactful player than Gagner.

Play with my words all you want. You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect, but hey it's a long sword that can fit more than one rose colored seeing delusional fan.

Is the the part were you guys giggle and fist pump each other.

Avatar
#107 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 10:42PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Play with my words all you want. You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect, but hey it's a long sword that can fit more than one rose colored seeing delusional fan.

Is the the part were you guys giggle and fist pump each other.

So what's "falling on your sword" to you? If he's not a top 15 center? Top 30? Top 45?

Avatar
#108 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 10:45PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Play with my words all you want. You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect, but hey it's a long sword that can fit more than one rose colored seeing delusional fan.

Is the the part were you guys giggle and fist pump each other.

You haven't had one solid argument, all you are clinging too (besides your ridiculous bias) is that he is (relatively) small and (relatively) slow... as in those aren't things that a 21 year old can improve on.... or that their haven't been very succesful players that have over come the same obsticles.

Avatar
#109 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 10:49PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

So you want to trade Gagner for an NHL D-man. Do you have one in mind or will any 2nd pairing guy do?

There isnt anything delusional about being optimistic regarding Gagner as an NHL centre. The only delusional fan in this conversation is the one who cant see how well Gagner's done given his age and the situations he's been placed in.

I dont fist pump or giggle when I read nonsense, unless it's from madjam. Sometimes I giggle at what madjam writes.

Avatar
#110 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 10:53PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

So what's "falling on your sword" to you? If he's not a top 15 center? Top 30? Top 45?

Top 20-30 2 way centre.

Avatar
#111 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 10:59PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

You see whats available on the open market and take the best available prospect as seen by your scouts, preferabely a young shut down d-man with agility, ie: Petrovich,Alzner or someone like that.

Avatar
#112 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 11:02PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

I thought you said not a prospect?

Avatar
#113 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:05PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

You haven't had one solid argument, all you are clinging too (besides your ridiculous bias) is that he is (relatively) small and (relatively) slow... as in those aren't things that a 21 year old can improve on.... or that their haven't been very succesful players that have over come the same obsticles.

Not centremen in the new N.H.L. era, were centremen need to play a great 200' game, to help their teams become championship calibre.

Avatar
#114 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 11:08PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

All the evidence suggests that Gagner has continually gotten better defensively every season. Your concerns about the 200' game appear unfounded.

Avatar
#115 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 11:09PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Top 20-30 2 way centre.

So if he's not a top 20 - 30 centermen we are "wrong".

Avatar
#116 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 11:11PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

You see whats available on the open market and take the best available prospect as seen by your scouts, preferabely a young shut down d-man with agility, ie: Petrovich,Alzner or someone like that.

Boy you get mixed up alot.

Avatar
#117 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:11PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Hey why not, we can get a defensive prospect for him.

We all agree the team is weak at centre , so it needs to be upgraded, and he is part of the reason why they are weak at centre, so he needs to be upraded.

You guys are admiting the weakness and are failing to recognize he is a part of the weakness.

Imagine how pissed you guys would be if I said undraft him like someone once said.

Avatar
#118 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:12PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Boy you get mixed up alot.

How so.

Avatar
#119 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:22PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

So if he's not a top 20 - 30 centermen we are "wrong".

You would be wrong, but that doesn't mean he would be a dissapoitment. If he ends up being a top 45 2 way centre than he has had a good career, I personaly don't like him at centre. I would of liked to see Seguin and Brule be the teams top 2 centres going forward, hopefully now it will be Cotourier or Hopkins at #1 Brule/Pitlick in a couple of years at #2,3.

Avatar
#120 Archaeologuy
October 14 2010, 11:22PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

We all agree the team is weak at centre , so it needs to be upgraded, and he is part of the reason why they are weak at centre, so he needs to be upraded.

You guys are admiting the weakness and are failing to recognize he is a part of the weakness.

Imagine how pissed you guys would be if I said undraft him like someone once said.

The TEAM is weak at centre. It is not weak at centre because of Gagner. It is weak at Centre because it only has Gagner as a legit top 6 Centre under 25 in its organization.

It's weak at Centre because the next best option on the 1st line put up less than 40 points last season.

You arent upgrading the team's deficiency at Centre by trading the best young Centre for a defenseman. That makes it worse. That move puts Horc back to #1, Cogliano into #2, Fraser to #3, and brings in AHL talent to be #4. You've effectively downgraded an already weak lineup. Thanks for playing the game.

How am I supposed to recognize him as a part of the weakness? Am I supposed to be angry that we dont have more guys like him? Is that what we're upset about? I'm confused.

Avatar
#121 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 11:24PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

We all agree the team is weak at centre , so it needs to be upgraded, and he is part of the reason why they are weak at centre, so he needs to be upraded.

You guys are admiting the weakness and are failing to recognize he is a part of the weakness.

Imagine how pissed you guys would be if I said undraft him like someone once said.

Wow, this is approaching madjam level.

"the position is weak so trade away the best you've got at that position"

FFS man, if you are weak in a position you don't trade away the little bit of strength that you have, you try and add more strength.

Avatar
#122 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 11:26PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

How so.

This thread specificaly you say "not a prospect" in one post and then list a couple of D prospects when asked whom they should look for.

Also, saying he was playing alot with top guys his first 3 years, when in fact he got very little time with top guys in his first 2 years.

Avatar
#123 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:30PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

The TEAM is weak at centre. It is not weak at centre because of Gagner. It is weak at Centre because it only has Gagner as a legit top 6 Centre under 25 in its organization.

It's weak at Centre because the next best option on the 1st line put up less than 40 points last season.

You arent upgrading the team's deficiency at Centre by trading the best young Centre for a defenseman. That makes it worse. That move puts Horc back to #1, Cogliano into #2, Fraser to #3, and brings in AHL talent to be #4. You've effectively downgraded an already weak lineup. Thanks for playing the game.

How am I supposed to recognize him as a part of the weakness? Am I supposed to be angry that we dont have more guys like him? Is that what we're upset about? I'm confused.

You upgrade it at the draft and give Hall a chance, you don't worry about this year. It's called a pre-emptive strike. Brule can play centre you don't have to go to the minors.

Avatar
#124 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 14 2010, 11:32PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

You upgrade it at the draft and give Hall a chance, you don't worry about this year. It's called a pre-emptive strike. Brule can play centre you don't have to go to the minors.

Or you come to grips with reality and realize that their isn't some magical, mystical powers of the center that make him far more valuable then wingers.

Avatar
#125 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:40PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

This thread specificaly you say "not a prospect" in one post and then list a couple of D prospects when asked whom they should look for.

Also, saying he was playing alot with top guys his first 3 years, when in fact he got very little time with top guys in his first 2 years.

Read post #111 I specificaly said best available prospect, where did you get "not a prospect" from.

The last 30 games in his 1st year he played on the first p.p unit with Hemsky and the kid line got a lot of minutes 5 on 5 in the last 40 games. In his 2nd year he was the second line centre played alot with Cole then Kotalik, member Mac-T made Pisani the 3rd line centre. Through out this all he always got 1st or 2nd p.p time.

Avatar
#126 C-DOG
October 14 2010, 11:56PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Or you come to grips with reality and realize that their isn't some magical, mystical powers of the center that make him far more valuable then wingers.

Centres are far more valueble than wingers , that is not even a debate. It's not the title of centre that's important. It's the positioning on the ice, the faceoffs etc.

Do you think it was a fluke that the Oilers were the 2nd best team in Shots against in 05-06(Detroit 1st). Since then they consistantly get out shot.

It's not a coincidence stoll and Horcoff had their best seasons that year, and had Pronger on D.

If you don't realize that you build with centres and D-men than your just clueless. The FACTS are there just check history it doesn't lie. It's like building an N.F.L team with w.r. Oh wait the Detroit lions did that, how did that work out or the N.J devils in Hockey post lockout, great regular seasons no playoff sucsess. Lost to Carolina 06 Weight, Brind'amour, Staal, 07 Spezza, Fisher,09 Staal, Brind'amour, 10 Richards, Carter, Giroux, they even lost to Drury and Gomez in 09. and check the previous 80 years for that matter.

Avatar
#127 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 12:06AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Or you come to grips with reality and realize that their isn't some magical, mystical powers of the center that make him far more valuable then wingers.

You don't think the team would be better long term with Seguin in between Hemsky and Penner, and having Paajarvi on the second line with Eberle and one of Gagne ,Brule or Horcoff at centre, instead of having 3 good l.w. with not enough icetime to go around. Now they have to mess with p.p. time, Paajarvi got 58 sec of p.p time today, thats a waste of talent. this team is built lopsided, because they fell in love with the sexiness of Hall instead of trending history. It's no fluke they were a last place org last year, injuries or not.

If they drafted Seguin last year and tanked again this year( very possible if they play their cards right) and got Larrson, they would be a legit cup contender in 3-4 years. Now they have to hope Tambalini can make enough trades for franchise players, not likely.

Avatar
#128 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 08:13AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Read post #111 I specificaly said best available prospect, where did you get "not a prospect" from.

The last 30 games in his 1st year he played on the first p.p unit with Hemsky and the kid line got a lot of minutes 5 on 5 in the last 40 games. In his 2nd year he was the second line centre played alot with Cole then Kotalik, member Mac-T made Pisani the 3rd line centre. Through out this all he always got 1st or 2nd p.p time.

Madjam? You are confused again. I was repsonding to 111. it was post 106 were you contridicted yourself:

"You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect"

Avatar
#129 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 08:14AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Centres are far more valueble than wingers , that is not even a debate. It's not the title of centre that's important. It's the positioning on the ice, the faceoffs etc.

Do you think it was a fluke that the Oilers were the 2nd best team in Shots against in 05-06(Detroit 1st). Since then they consistantly get out shot.

It's not a coincidence stoll and Horcoff had their best seasons that year, and had Pronger on D.

If you don't realize that you build with centres and D-men than your just clueless. The FACTS are there just check history it doesn't lie. It's like building an N.F.L team with w.r. Oh wait the Detroit lions did that, how did that work out or the N.J devils in Hockey post lockout, great regular seasons no playoff sucsess. Lost to Carolina 06 Weight, Brind'amour, Staal, 07 Spezza, Fisher,09 Staal, Brind'amour, 10 Richards, Carter, Giroux, they even lost to Drury and Gomez in 09. and check the previous 80 years for that matter.

It's not a fact you clown, it's your opinion.

Avatar
#130 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 09:29AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

It's not a fact you clown, it's your opinion.

A d-man can't be a prospect.

Find wingers that led their teams as the franchise player to stanley cups, those are the facts wether you want to recognize them or not,decades of history don't lie.

I might be a clown for debating with someone with a lack of history and knowledge about hockey.

For the record I was looking for a response from the blogger not from you,you don't bring or recognize facts and when your stumped you mix my words,hurl insults, claim I'm guessing and get defensive with player you overate from your beloved team, don't get stressed out by it it's not worth the stress it's just hockey.

A time will come when you will be able to analize properly once you seperate emotion from facts, it takes time, it took me a few years to get their, fans always hope their players turn into something they are not, because they want whats best for their team, and are biased, but thats o.k I guess thats a part of being a fan escaping reality, so thats cool just don't let it stress you out.

Avatar
#131 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:00AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

"A d-man can't be a prospect."

What are you talking about now? One post you're talking trading for a defensive prospect the next post you are saying you aren't talking about trading a defensive prospect. Now you are saying

"A d-man can't be a prospect" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Weve been over the C/W thing 10 times. Yes almost every cup winner has a good center because theirs typically 15-20+ good centers in the league. Do the math.

Avatar
#132 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:02AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

Don't bring facts?

What a joke, I showed you what little time he spent with Penner/Hemsky over the last three years after you claimed they were the reason he was productive.

Avatar
#133 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 10:13AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

"A d-man can't be a prospect."

What are you talking about now? One post you're talking trading for a defensive prospect the next post you are saying you aren't talking about trading a defensive prospect. Now you are saying

"A d-man can't be a prospect" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Weve been over the C/W thing 10 times. Yes almost every cup winner has a good center because theirs typically 15-20+ good centers in the league. Do the math.

I always maintained aquireing a defensive prospect meanining a young d- man, not trading one for Gagne. Please read or don't waste our time.

Dude you just don't get it with centres,If? there is 15-20 centres and you don't have one, than what does that say about your teams chances. Thats the whole point!, wow are you clueless.

Avatar
#134 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 10:20AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Don't bring facts?

What a joke, I showed you what little time he spent with Penner/Hemsky over the last three years after you claimed they were the reason he was productive.

It's not just those guys it's top 1 or 2 line minutes, p.p or other wise, you only like to use 5 on 5 because it benifits your argument, and even then 60% of his points came with Penner and still week #'s and still less productive than cog's with Penner, those are the only #'s you came up with in dozens of post that actually prove my points.

If your 1st line centre is the least taleted on his line and would be the least talented even on the 2nd line than he is just not good enough period, but your blind love does not allow you to see this, it's not even a debate.

He wouldn't be a top 2 centre on more than half the teams in the league.

Avatar
#135 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:23AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

I always maintained aquireing a defensive prospect meanining a young d- man, not trading one for Gagne. Please read or don't waste our time.

Dude you just don't get it with centres,If? there is 15-20 centres and you don't have one, than what does that say about your teams chances. Thats the whole point!, wow are you clueless.

And yet in post 106 you say

"Play with my words all you want. You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect, but hey it's a long sword that can fit more than one rose colored seeing delusional fan."

Avatar
#136 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:26AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

It's not just those guys it's top 1 or 2 line minutes, p.p or other wise, you only like to use 5 on 5 because it benifits your argument, and even then 60% of his points came with Penner and still week #'s and still less productive than cog's with Penner, those are the only #'s you came up with in dozens of post that actually prove my points.

If your 1st line centre is the least taleted on his line and would be the least talented even on the 2nd line than he is just not good enough period, but your blind love does not allow you to see this, it's not even a debate.

He wouldn't be a top 2 centre on more than half the teams in the league.

Yes he's played with a few of our more talented players, does that suprise you? Every team has 6-7 forwards of resonable talent, he would be playing with those guys too if he was on another team.

Do you think we'd only get a true look at what he could do if he was centering Jones and Stortini?

Avatar
#137 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:30AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

It's not just those guys it's top 1 or 2 line minutes, p.p or other wise, you only like to use 5 on 5 because it benifits your argument, and even then 60% of his points came with Penner and still week #'s and still less productive than cog's with Penner, those are the only #'s you came up with in dozens of post that actually prove my points.

If your 1st line centre is the least taleted on his line and would be the least talented even on the 2nd line than he is just not good enough period, but your blind love does not allow you to see this, it's not even a debate.

He wouldn't be a top 2 centre on more than half the teams in the league.

How on earth do the numbers I posted prove your point? The point I was commenting on was:

"doesn't get 1st line icetime and 1st p.p time and is battleing with Horcoff for gravy minutes, fans would realize exactly what he is, at best a second tier player."

In your post #55.

When in reality he's produced at roughly the same clip when he was playing with very average players that he did when he was playing with our top players (Hemsky/penner)

That DISPROVES your point that it would fail if he was taken off the current #1 line.

Avatar
#138 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 10:34AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

And yet in post 106 you say

"Play with my words all you want. You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect, but hey it's a long sword that can fit more than one rose colored seeing delusional fan."

When I said defensive prospect, I gave you guys enough credit that you would asume D-man not a checking forward, when have I ever put a premium on a checking fwd, I have specifically said in the past I don't want one because I don't care about them during a rebuild and not worried about wins and wanting a bad finish for draft reasons, if you don't beleive that than I know your playing with my words.

Avatar
#139 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 10:42AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

How on earth do the numbers I posted prove your point? The point I was commenting on was:

"doesn't get 1st line icetime and 1st p.p time and is battleing with Horcoff for gravy minutes, fans would realize exactly what he is, at best a second tier player."

In your post #55.

When in reality he's produced at roughly the same clip when he was playing with very average players that he did when he was playing with our top players (Hemsky/penner)

That DISPROVES your point that it would fail if he was taken off the current #1 line.

I went through all 30 teams and Gagne wouldn't be a top 2 centre on at least 20 of them. He would probobly be moved to the wing if he was on any good team.

Cog's & Brule would of put up the same points if not more given an identical chance.

Avatar
#140 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:47AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

When I said defensive prospect, I gave you guys enough credit that you would asume D-man not a checking forward, when have I ever put a premium on a checking fwd, I have specifically said in the past I don't want one because I don't care about them during a rebuild and not worried about wins and wanting a bad finish for draft reasons, if you don't beleive that than I know your playing with my words.

You aren't understanding.

I'm not pointing out defensmen vs defensive forward.

I'm pointing out defensmen prospect vs established defensmen

One post you say: "You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect"

The next post you say: "You see whats available on the open market and take the best available prospect as seen by your scouts"

Avatar
#141 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 10:51AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@C-DOG

"Cog's & Brule would of put up the same points if not more given an identical chance."

Right, right. Three NHL coaches have been fooled, but you've figured it out.

Avatar
#142 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 11:07AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Facts don't lie look at Brule's icetime last year and p.p minutes, more points/60 minutes than your boy and that's with much less p.p./top 6 time or those #'s don't support your argument. The reason why Gagne gets the benifit of the doubt is time invested in him not just skill set, see Pouliot,they never drafted Brule, they have to keep going to him since they rushed him and don't want to ruin him or his confidence.

This team can't even be competitive with him as a #1 much less contend or God forbid help lead them to the playoffs.

Avatar
#143 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 11:08AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Facts don't lie look at Brule's icetime last year and p.p minutes, more points/60 minutes than your boy and that's with much less p.p./top 6 time or those #'s don't support your argument. The reason why Gagne gets the benifit of the doubt is time invested in him not just skill set, see Pouliot,they never drafted Brule, they have to keep going to him since they rushed him and don't want to ruin him or his confidence.

This team can't even be competitive with him as a #1 much less contend or God forbid help lead them to the playoffs.

Funny, they almost made the playoff when he was 18 playing 1C

Avatar
#144 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 11:11AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

You aren't understanding.

I'm not pointing out defensmen vs defensive forward.

I'm pointing out defensmen prospect vs established defensmen

One post you say: "You know I said d-man,not defensive prospect"

The next post you say: "You see whats available on the open market and take the best available prospect as seen by your scouts"

Where does it say best available d-man/ prospect has to be an established d-man.

I don't recall saying established d-man.

I I first said in post#81 trade him for a younger d-man prospect. If I did say established d-man than that was a mistake and I never meant to say that.

Avatar
#145 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 11:23AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Funny, they almost made the playoff when he was 18 playing 1C

Thanks, thats the whole point, they are father away from making the playoffs in his 3/4th year than they were in his rookie year when no one took them seriously and they snuck up on teams, If he was that good as a rookie and the team had a lot of injuries and almost made it, than why are they farther back now, answer: very simple, week at centre / defence, the Facts!!!!! of history prevail again and again etc...

Avatar
#147 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 11:36AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

Thanks, thats the whole point, they are father away from making the playoffs in his 3/4th year than they were in his rookie year when no one took them seriously and they snuck up on teams, If he was that good as a rookie and the team had a lot of injuries and almost made it, than why are they farther back now, answer: very simple, week at centre / defence, the Facts!!!!! of history prevail again and again etc...

Ya, great point. They were further away last year then Gagners rookie year, because of Gagner.

Couldn't have been 500 man games lost and no goaltending.

Avatar
#148 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 11:37AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Lowetide wrote:

Well, we're not going to agree on this but placing blame on Gagner for last season is a "smoking the drapes" argument.

I was kind of hoping no one else was reading this - haha

Avatar
#149 C-DOG
October 15 2010, 12:22PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Lowetide wrote:

Well, we're not going to agree on this but placing blame on Gagner for last season is a "smoking the drapes" argument.

I never placed the blame on him, I said the weekness at centre, which he is a part of has not allowed them to make the playoff, and it has been a similar group since, showing very little progress over thats span, proving my point of an early developer.

By the way, that year were they were closest to making the playoffs he was a winger, OUCH!

Avatar
#150 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 15 2010, 12:26PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
C-DOG wrote:

I never placed the blame on him, I said the weekness at centre, which he is a part of has not allowed them to make the playoff, and it has been a similar group since, showing very little progress over thats span, proving my point of an early developer.

By the way, that year were they were closest to making the playoffs he was a winger, OUCH!

You still aren't getting that you don't subtract to a weakness, you try to add to it.

Comments are closed for this article.