This Is Us

Lowetide
October 22 2010 07:36AM

Last night's Oilers game was an enjoyable one. Although the town team lost, most shifts gave fans an indication about things to come. Speed, skill, passes and dekes that showed the true beauty of the game. Buckle up, this is going to be a fast ride.  

This is us. A fun team to watch, run and gun--maybe a little shy on finishing the play--and high event at both ends of the ice. Hemsky stirs the drink, and the kids offer a hint about the future. If you measure this season in wins and losses bring out the Glenlivet now. Small steps, folks. And there were plenty last night.

Taylor Hall didn't have any finish last night but (as his coach said after the game) the kid had his best NHL game. Mark Spector wrote a nice piece here and I think we can feel pretty good about this team's future despite the loss on home ice. Hall was the most obvious youngster last night, but the other two rookie forwards had their strong moments too. Magnus Pääjärvi must certainly lead the league in penalties drawn after the Minny game, and Jordan Eberle continues to amaze with his anticipation and execution in all three zones. Big brain.

At this point we should hope the Oilers finally start Dubnyk and begin the final march toward making a decision on the backup goalie, and there's probably a slight hint of an opportunity for a switch-out along the blue (Strudwick in, likely Vandermeer out). I don't think there's any help coming via trade, at this point in the season teams will be asking the moon ("a battle ship for a rowboat"- a Punch Imlach line) for puck movers along the blue. I'd guess Petry or Belle would be the first option to upgrade the passing from the defense.

The 4th line is a mess, but I don't know that there's much they can do about it. Fraser needs to play until he's comfortable (Kurtis Foster settled in nicely last night, at least compared to previous performances) and Jones had played well until last night. I wonder a little about Zack Stortini, he seems to be getting less love from this coach than he did from his other two NHL coaches (HS opening night, no hesitation to staple his ass to the bench last night).

A wild guess has Dubnyk playing Saturday and Strudwick also drawing in. If there's a pool on this stuff, I'll bet they call up Shawn Belle when a goalie is finally sent packing.

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Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on TSN 1260.
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#51 Dominoiler
October 22 2010, 10:12AM
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Rick wrote:

I am not sure the 4th line is as big of a mess as it seems. I think they just look like it because two of the three 4th liners are the closest thing this team has to 3rd liners in the traditional sense and they're being played in situations they aren't suited for.

That said, last night in particular was without a doubt a bad night for them.

Other than that, the last 40 minutes were fun to watch. I never would have expected to say that about a Minny game.

except that they are over matched as fourth liners, so how are they miscast 3rd liners?..

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#52 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 10:16AM
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I HAVE A QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:

Lets say Hall played for Regina and Eberle played for Windsor, does Regina still miss the playoffs and does Windsor still win the memorial cup?

I beleive nothing would of changed. Eberle was the best junior in the C.H.L, the most clutch player and best goal scorer. Just trying to point out that if your best players are wingers regardless of how good they are you don't stand a good chance. Windsor's top 3 centres were 4 year juniors and Nemisz also played a lot of centre, all were point/game players, also they had the best d core in the league that included Fowler and Ellis p/g as well.

Please!!!!!!!!!!!! Oilers eventually give him a chance no later than next season, so I can have hope like the rest of the fans.

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#53 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 10:16AM
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Woodguy wrote:

Lowetide said: If you measure this season in wins and losses bring out the Glenlivet now. Small steps, folks.

It doesn't have to be that way.

13 Million in cap space and the GM fills out the roster with the dregs who probably don't make the roster on any other NHL team.

Katz's kingdom for a 4th line of players with 500+ games of NHL experience and who don't bleed goals against.

A fine fellow named PDO pointed out this stat:

In 5 games the Oilers have 15 goals against. 2 were into empty nets, so in reality 13 GA.

Jones and Fraser have been on for 8 of them.

Their combined cap hit is 1.8M (975 Jones, 875 Fraser.

This team doesn't have to suck. This team can make the playoffs during the rebuilding year (if all key players stay healthy and the creek don't rise)

Tambellini is throwing away an opportunity for the Oilers and their fans by doing nothing to address to bottom of the roster.

You cannot explain away these bad decisions with "calm down, they're rebuiding"

The debacle of the 4th line has nothing to do with rebuilding, the kids or the price of tea in China.

It has everything to do with inept management who fail to recognize glaring holes on the roster.

This could have been addressed in the off season with 1 year contracts to quality vets.

Madden doesn't want to come to a re-build, yet signs with the Wild for 1.25M? You have 13M in cap space, offer Madden 2M for 1 year and see how he feels about a rebuild.

What exactly does having Vandermeer and Strudwick on the roster have to do with a rebuild?

They are pissing away this year, the 2nd last year of Penner and Hemsky and it doesn't have to be this way.

Interesting numbers, but that's highly skewed by 1 piss poor night on the PK.

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#54 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 10:17AM
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C-DOG wrote:

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR EVERYONE:

Lets say Hall played for Regina and Eberle played for Windsor, does Regina still miss the playoffs and does Windsor still win the memorial cup?

I beleive nothing would of changed. Eberle was the best junior in the C.H.L, the most clutch player and best goal scorer. Just trying to point out that if your best players are wingers regardless of how good they are you don't stand a good chance. Windsor's top 3 centres were 4 year juniors and Nemisz also played a lot of centre, all were point/game players, also they had the best d core in the league that included Fowler and Ellis p/g as well.

Please!!!!!!!!!!!! Oilers eventually give him a chance no later than next season, so I can have hope like the rest of the fans.

Ridiculous scenario to try and prove your point.

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#55 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 10:20AM
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@D-Man

Gagner played his first year on the wing, I don't mind if Hall takes that path.

Trying to figure out the Oilers position on the 3 goalies will make me bang my head against a brick wall all day long, no thanks.

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#56 Matt Henderson
October 22 2010, 10:20AM
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@C-DOG

It looks like you just made a great argument for why you draft Seguin, not why you move Hall away from the position he's good at.

Washington didnt start to win until they had Backstrom. The Oilers wont start to win until they have...

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#57 magisterrex
October 22 2010, 10:21AM
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Gotta agree with Woodguy that the bottom 6 need some work. Not sold on Jones nor Fraser, but when JFJ comes back he'll be taking Jones' slot, so where would Reddox fit in? Storts has NO chemistry with Fraser. None. But then again, it looks like no one on that 4th line has, either.

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#58 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 10:26AM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

It looks like you just made a great argument for why you draft Seguin, not why you move Hall away from the position he's good at.

Washington didnt start to win until they had Backstrom. The Oilers wont start to win until they have...

I already made that argument a hundred times and you might be right, but I hope Hall proves us wrong and I want to beleive he can play centre.

And I have to move on from Seguin, begrudgeingly, I don't think I spelled that right.

Let's hope Couterier or Hopkins! So stop benching the 4th line and play Smid and Vandermeer a lot!

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#59 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 10:28AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Ridiculous scenario to try and prove your point.

How did I know you would be the first to reply and what you would reply with hmm?

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#60 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 10:32AM
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C-DOG wrote:

How did I know you would be the first to reply and what you would reply with hmm?

What do you expect when you state:

"changing one elite winger for another wont effect the teams finish".

That has 0 support for your case.

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#61 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 10:41AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

What do you expect when you state:

"changing one elite winger for another wont effect the teams finish".

That has 0 support for your case.

It's a very good example 1 winger for the other, It is very cut and dry situation, what is so ridiculous about it, it's the same era same year basicaly the same position, it's 1 for 1, just because you can't debate or debunk history doesn't make it ridiculous.

All I do is give example after example and you can't come up with 1.

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#62 Hemmercules
October 22 2010, 10:42AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Interesting numbers, but that's highly skewed by 1 piss poor night on the PK.

@ woodguy - I believe Fraser was brought in hoping he would be Ok on faceoffs, PK and fourth line duties. Jones the same minus the faceoffs plus a little grit. 5 games in they aren't looking too great but thats the whole point of a rebuild. Play some young guys with potential, see how they do. If they continue to suck they won't remain, If they get better you have some good young players to sign next year at possibly longer term contracts. I doubt Tambo will mail these guys in after just 5 games and start looking to make tades for them. Anyone thinking we make the playoffs or even pass the first round of the playoffs is dilusional. And I doubt swapping a couple fourth liners and a dman will push this team over the edge. The turnover this summer was crazy, no way this team finds any sort of playoff type chemistry as quickly as you would like with so many new players and a new coach.

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#63 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 10:48AM
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C-DOG wrote:

It's a very good example 1 winger for the other, It is very cut and dry situation, what is so ridiculous about it, it's the same era same year basicaly the same position, it's 1 for 1, just because you can't debate or debunk history doesn't make it ridiculous.

All I do is give example after example and you can't come up with 1.

I really don't know what to say about this.

You expect switching elite winger for elite winger to have a result OTHER then keeping both teams at a similar level?

You can say the same about basically any similar caliber player.

I doubt switching Richards for Getzlaf would have much affect on their teams overall performance.

Same with Switching Vishnosky for Rafalski or Heatly for Hossa.

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#64 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 11:02AM
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Hemmercules wrote:

@ woodguy - I believe Fraser was brought in hoping he would be Ok on faceoffs, PK and fourth line duties. Jones the same minus the faceoffs plus a little grit. 5 games in they aren't looking too great but thats the whole point of a rebuild. Play some young guys with potential, see how they do. If they continue to suck they won't remain, If they get better you have some good young players to sign next year at possibly longer term contracts. I doubt Tambo will mail these guys in after just 5 games and start looking to make tades for them. Anyone thinking we make the playoffs or even pass the first round of the playoffs is dilusional. And I doubt swapping a couple fourth liners and a dman will push this team over the edge. The turnover this summer was crazy, no way this team finds any sort of playoff type chemistry as quickly as you would like with so many new players and a new coach.

I disagree that test driving 4th line players should be part of the rebuild.

With this many rookies you need the 4th liners to be hockey players, not projects.

The NHL is full of cheap vets who are team jumping on 1 year contracts, but Tambellini fails to see this.

Tambellini put Foster, Fraser, Vandermeer and Jones all in positions that were above their previous established levels of play in the NHL.

Jones was a waiver pick up from Nashville.

Fraser saw the PB often in Chicago (70gp last year)

Foster was 3rd pair (1PP) and saw the PB often too (71 gp last year)

Vandermeer never saw the ice in the playoffs for Phoneix and was PB often(62 gp last year)

There were better options available to the Oilers via both free agency and trade.

Other NHL GM's (Tallon, Yzerman, Fletcher... pretty everyone except Tambellini) see this and sign the established vets at those positions.

The playoffs are not delusional for this team if they fill out the roster with Actual NHL Players. There is a lot of talent on the team and the kids are way ahead of the most optimistic predictions in terms of NHL readiness.

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#65 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 11:06AM
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Over at LT's blog, a poster named Quain posted the cumulative scoring chance differential through the first 4 games.

Through four games:

FORWARDS - Chance Differential per 60 A. HEMSKY - 12.54 D. PENNER - 8.93 S. GAGNER - 8.14 J. EBERLE - 4.90 S. HORCOFF - 4.85 T. HALL - 2.35 Z. STORTINI - (8.37) A. COGLIANO - (10.67) M. PAAJARVI - (12.66) S. MACINTYRE - (13.24) G. BRULE - (17.86) R. JONES - (19.89) C. FRASER - (20.35)

DEFENSE - Chance Differential per 60 T. GILBERT - 8.24 L. SMID - 5.03 R. WHITNEY - (3.47) T. PECKHAM - (5.97) J. VANDERMEER - (7.43) K. FOSTER - (9.43)

The kids, the focus of the rebuild, are not the problem.

The guys Tambellini added to the roster are the main culprits.

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#66 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 11:09AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

I really don't know what to say about this.

You expect switching elite winger for elite winger to have a result OTHER then keeping both teams at a similar level?

You can say the same about basically any similar caliber player.

I doubt switching Richards for Getzlaf would have much affect on their teams overall performance.

Same with Switching Vishnosky for Rafalski or Heatly for Hossa.

No I don't expect a different result, that was my point. People said Hall is a winner thats why you draft him, I say you can't look at it that way because his team was so great as well, and if a great winger can lead you to the promise land than switch them up and do you get a different result.

Looks at Plymouth's roster from last year and Regina's excluding Seguin and Eberle, one can make the argument that Regina's was just as good if not better, the team with the centre(Plymouth) made the playoffs and had home ice in the first round and Regina did not, so if Hall was on Regina would they make the playoffs probobly not and no one would use the he's a winner so we have to draft him excuse.

This is not about Hall vs Seguin, it's about winger vs centre position.

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#67 Jason T
October 22 2010, 11:10AM
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So now that Hall's good enough to be in the NHL, we're back to the "shoulda drafted a centre" crap? WTF is wrong with some people here? Why would you draft the 2nd best player over need.

If this team is wanting to contend in 3-5 years, maybe that centerman comes over the next 3 years? You don't know? Gagner is producing just fine as a 21 year old right now as well, what he' look like with 3 more years under his belt.

The Hall/Seguin debate was laughable at the time, even moreso now. There was no debate, Hall's was the guy, is the guy. Name a Canadian who went 1st overall who couldn't make the WJ team? Along with all he accomplished in junior? It wasn't, and isn't, close.

Great game by Hall last night. He's 100% NHL ready. Can you guys just admit you're wrong. You're the vocal minority. It's rediculous.

Next topic.

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#68 madjam
October 22 2010, 11:11AM
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Does not a proper rebuild start with a decent defence ? When might we expect one to be formed here during our so called rebuild ? The Edmonton 'Bubblicious' boys don't appear to be the answer to anything more than prolonged futility .

Our cups 40% filled after first 5 set of games . That translates to about a 65 point season at that rate . Panic button blinking already . Most fans would agree ,wins and results matter despite rebuild . Rebuild is not an excuse for futility if this trend continues . Once again ,i repeat , it's not the rookies that are underperforming .

I , like most, expect to see more out of Gagner , Brule and Cogs which could go a long ways in making club more competitive . So far only Gagner seems to be showing some improvement , but not on score sheet . Those boys got to start "burying the biscuit " on the ten bell chances they are being set up with !!

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#69 Quicksilver ballet
October 22 2010, 11:12AM
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It's difficult to watch our D struggle like this, being dominated by a non playoff team for the last few seasons has to send a message. Move Smid out the next trip to the post office, we're better off with Vandemeers toughness than Smid's Charmin approach to the game.

Handcuffing Souray in Hersey while we struggle on the blueline up here is really starting to pay dividends. Flushing 5-9 millions dollars of Katz's money down the pooper has to get his attention. He must be getting tired of this testicle clamp he's been wearing for the last few seasons. We're 4-1 with Souray in the line-up.

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#70 Jason T
October 22 2010, 11:17AM
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A lot of if's there. You're trying to state all things are equal in those cases, and they're not in the Seguin/Eberle comparison.

What were their divisions like? What's Regina's goalie like? How are the defense's on either team? How much production did the team's get out of 20 year olds? Etc.?

You can't cherry pic one stat, one point, and have it hold water to make a point.

Patrick Kane just won a cup as a winger taken 1st overall. That's a cherry picken stats. That's basically what you're doing to support your arguements. There's more to it that just that man. Just like in the Kane case. ALL of the other variables have to be there, like Seabrook, Keith, Toews, Sharp, etc. It's all part of it.

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#71 Horcsky
October 22 2010, 11:19AM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

It's difficult to watch our D struggle like this, being dominated by a non playoff team for the last few seasons has to send a message. Move Smid out the next trip to the post office, we're better off with Vandemeers toughness than Smid's Charmin approach to the game.

Handcuffing Souray in Hersey while we struggle on the blueline up here is really starting to pay dividends. Flushing 5-9 millions dollars of Katz's money down the pooper has to get his attention. He must be getting tired of this testicle clamp he's been wearing for the last few seasons. We're 4-1 with Souray in the line-up.

Let me get this straight. You want to send away Ladi Smid (who i wouldn't call charmin toughness btw), for Jim "can'tclearthezone-caughtpinchingsonowits2on1onpeckham-can'tmakeabreakoutpass" Vandermeer?

*Facepalm*

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#72 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 11:20AM
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@C-DOG

"This is not about Hall vs Seguin, it's about winger vs centre position."

Yes, winger vs center is the debate.

And stating that swapping 1 winger for another of similar caliber wouldn't affect teams performance, doesn't support your side. (in fact it doesn't support any side.)

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#73 Hemmercules
October 22 2010, 11:21AM
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Woodguy wrote:

Over at LT's blog, a poster named Quain posted the cumulative scoring chance differential through the first 4 games.

Through four games:

FORWARDS - Chance Differential per 60 A. HEMSKY - 12.54 D. PENNER - 8.93 S. GAGNER - 8.14 J. EBERLE - 4.90 S. HORCOFF - 4.85 T. HALL - 2.35 Z. STORTINI - (8.37) A. COGLIANO - (10.67) M. PAAJARVI - (12.66) S. MACINTYRE - (13.24) G. BRULE - (17.86) R. JONES - (19.89) C. FRASER - (20.35)

DEFENSE - Chance Differential per 60 T. GILBERT - 8.24 L. SMID - 5.03 R. WHITNEY - (3.47) T. PECKHAM - (5.97) J. VANDERMEER - (7.43) K. FOSTER - (9.43)

The kids, the focus of the rebuild, are not the problem.

The guys Tambellini added to the roster are the main culprits.

You fail to realize maybe most of those free agents wanted nothing to do with Edmonton and you can't just make any trade you want whenever you want, it's a two way street. Is it possible Tambo didn't have many trade options on the table for 2nd pair dmen and 4th line guys???

Maybe Tambo thought these guys he picked were good options?? After 5 games with a new team and a new coach some of these guys don't look great, anyone can see that, but to cast them off already is a little crazy in my opinion. I say give them at least 20 games before you send them off. Playing 70 games isn't seeing the press box that much, especially for a 3rd or fourth liner.

So which available players should Tambo have got instead of Jones, Foster, Vandemeer and Fraser??

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#74 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 11:22AM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

It's difficult to watch our D struggle like this, being dominated by a non playoff team for the last few seasons has to send a message. Move Smid out the next trip to the post office, we're better off with Vandemeers toughness than Smid's Charmin approach to the game.

Handcuffing Souray in Hersey while we struggle on the blueline up here is really starting to pay dividends. Flushing 5-9 millions dollars of Katz's money down the pooper has to get his attention. He must be getting tired of this testicle clamp he's been wearing for the last few seasons. We're 4-1 with Souray in the line-up.

Ship out the under 25 guy and keep the 30+ guy.

Just what a rebuilding team needs.

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#75 DBO
October 22 2010, 11:24AM
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@Woodguy

Woodguy. You are forgetting why some of those moves were made. - Vandermeer actually saved us money instead of buying out Patrick O'Sullivan, gave us a one year rental that could be worth something at the deadline. Is he good, not really. But the deal for Vandermeer helped us cap wise and gave us a serviceable 6th dman. - Jones is a it of a head scratcher, but to imply he has been put in a spot above his talent is a bit much. he's a 4th liner playing 4th line minutes. He does bring some physical play, and that's what he is there for. What do you expect from a 4th liner? - Fraser cost us next to nothing, is still young enough to get better and was around a winning team last year. Something we've lacked big time lately is guys who have at least been around winners. He is also a 4th liner. Newsflash, 4th liners don' make or break you, and he is cheap, young and a vet compared to our other options. - And Foster is a guy to replace Souray on the PP. he was solid last night, and is just getting comfortable. Let's give the new guys 10 games before we throw them out the door.

And finally, one thing you fail to realize perhaps is that no free agents are or were banging down the door to come here. you say there were better options available? Who? Foster is the only UFA to want to play here, and is signed to a reasonable deal for a 40 pt dman who can run a PP. A month ago everyone was happy with the moves Tambellini made. he freed up a ton of cap space, brought in vets (not great but hell they have a ton of experience compared to the alternative) and is letting Renney play the heck out of the kids. This is still a rebuilding year, and while I think Tambellini handled Souray wrong and the goalie thing is nuts, I'll wait 20 games or so before I throw him and the players he brought in under the bus.

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#76 D-Man
October 22 2010, 11:24AM
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@Woodguy

You're expecting 4th line players to carry us to the playoffs? Now that's a bit delusional... Yzerman has Stamkos & Co. and Fletcher has Havlat, Koivu, Latendresse & Co.

Playoffs will be definitely viable as the kids improve. Keep in mind, Tambo just simply can't run out and sign all of these free agents and trade (even if we don't know that there's evidence that he's tried) at his whim. How many free agents on the board would have willingly came here without knowing they'd be overpaid?? We did finish last place last year after all. How many trades could Tambo make for these players knowing that we didn't have too many bargaining chips to deal with? Name me a player other than Penner, Hemsky and Whitney that other teams would have been interested in considering our overall performance last year??

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#77 Quicksilver ballet
October 22 2010, 11:34AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Ship out the under 25 guy and keep the 30+ guy.

Just what a rebuilding team needs.

Neither of these players are part of the long term goal here. Jimmy's done after this year for sure, and Smid's just not even a top four D'man anymore. Flush Smid, Vandemeer will be gone soon enough, so rebuilding has nothing to do with this decision. Did Souray commit a crime, drag his teamates through the mud, no, this whose balls are bigger battle between Souray and Tambelinni is hurting this club bigtime. With what we have here now, with Souray, this is a playoff team, so that hurts Katz even more.

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#78 The Other John
October 22 2010, 11:38AM
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When I was a young man Mrs Sam Elliot was incredibly beautiful!!!

Loved the jump of the kids. Do not understand the debate on kids---- they are here to stay.

I think last night was exactly the type of game the Oiler faithful bought into as part of the "rebuild". Fun to watch, glimpses as to the skill set that will develop over time, competitive match.

If we end up 28th with 35 home games like last night, I do not think that Oiler fans would be upset at all.

I do, however, think that the fan base would like to see a much better job of filling out the roster and developing role players in the system.

I do not believe that the current management group understands the concept of incremental advantages. That is, someone 10% better than Colin Fraser at face offs and killing penalties is not a slight upgrade----it is a COLOSSAL upgrade. Steckl or Boyd Gordon are not com parables to Colin Fraser --- they are noticeable upgrades.

Assemble enough incremental advantages and you will beat most teams.

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#79 BUCK75
October 22 2010, 11:38AM
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@Matt Henderson

Agreed.

Who's to say that Jeff Skinner won't have more points than Hall or Seguin. I think that I would rather have Taylor Hall on my team though.

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#80 Harlie
October 22 2010, 11:38AM
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I really liked what I saw from Hall in last night's game but I still think that Eberle is the guy who has looked the best out of the youngsters. He pressured Koivu and turned the puck over on him a few times and he never seems to get hit cleanly.

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#81 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 11:39AM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

Neither of these players are part of the long term goal here. Jimmy's done after this year for sure, and Smid's just not even a top four D'man anymore. Flush Smid, Vandemeer will be gone soon enough, so rebuilding has nothing to do with this decision. Did Souray commit a crime, drag his teamates through the mud, no, this whose balls are bigger battle between Souray and Tambelinni is hurting this club bigtime. With what we have here now, with Souray, this is a playoff team, so that hurts Katz even more.

~Good to see the patient rebuild in action~

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#82 Jason T
October 22 2010, 11:43AM
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@Matt Henderson

Wake up? Really?

You guys are the jokers who over and over and over have been ripping the decision, ripping Hall, shoulda drafted a centerman, etc.

And there you go, cherry picken a stat as usual, like most who are scrambling to support a reduculous position(3pts vs 1 pt over a 5 game segment).

I'm not going to convince guys like yourself, Shatty, or Speeds. You've made up your mind. You're the vocal minority. I just hope all 3 of you man up when over time are proven wrong.

Again, Seguin didn't make our junior squad, didn't win jack in junior, hasn't been the best player on the best team (the old Lafluer vs Dionne debate), etc. I'll cherry pick those stats like you're doing with yours.

The NHL isn't the NFL. You don't draft for need. You take the best player. 5 years down the road, we'll have our answer.

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#83 PabstBR55
October 22 2010, 11:47AM
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BUCK75 wrote:

Agreed.

Who's to say that Jeff Skinner won't have more points than Hall or Seguin. I think that I would rather have Taylor Hall on my team though.

& @ Indiana Jones

Who have Seguin's linemates been in Boston? Hall has bee impressive inasmuch as he's been able to create opportunities out of nothing. Watch him play on a line with Gagner and Hemsky and the points will come.

Both players, Seguin and Hall, have an ability to make it happen. I don't think that one offers a tremendous value over the other, but I will concede that Seguin fills a role that is scarce and extremely lacking on the Oilers.

Perhaps that since the top 3 prospects include 1 franchise D-man and 2 franchise C's in the 2011 draft, we expected to grab one of those C's anyway.

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#84 Matt Henderson
October 22 2010, 11:59AM
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@Jason T

Sure. Didnt mean to cherry pick such unimportant stats like scoring. Discount 5 on 5 scoring and the fact that Seguin had obviously weaker teammates so that you can focus on Plymouth's team accomplishments.

Solid argument. Gotcha.

Nobody said draft for need. I was always talking about BPA. I would be absolutely overjoyed if Seguin became a career 2nd liner and Hall became a perrenial All-Star and MVP candidate. I have no problem being wrong about that. It would be great.

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#85 Dyckster
October 22 2010, 12:01PM
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PabstBR55 wrote:

We'd have taken Seguin, but Tyler called Katz's kid a Fat Toad when they were shooting pucks together in the back yard of Katz' Xanadu Estate. That's the part you didn't see in "Oil Change".

"I hate that Seguin kid worse than Shoppers Drug Mart", said Katz. "I can't believe I let him walk through my marbled halls".

True story. You heard it here first. Now you can end this mind-numbing debate.

Props X 1,000,000,000!

We're 5 games into the season, yes the team is off to a rocky start (in some people's eyes anyway), but "the kids" are performing as expected. Debating, to a point, is fun and all, but for pete's sake, enough already. By the time this team is contending at a level we anticipate they will, there will be several personal changes. Some of the current copper and blue are likely just fill-ins, with the hopes of maybe a couple of them turning into a useful asset (Jones, Foster, Fraser...). Like many have said before in so many ways, let's sit back and see what happens.

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#86 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 12:06PM
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Aitch wrote:

Woodguy - I think you make valuable points, but... it all depends on your idea of a re-build. If the Oilers really do want to re-build through the draft then they don't really want to be a playoff team this year. Why bring in the vets to round out a roster when your goal is to get another high draft pick to build around?

If, say in two seasons we still have about the same top 9 and we need experienced vets to round it out, then, by all means, fill in those holes with some guys who've been around the block. Until then, sit back and watch your kids grow-up. It happens so fast, you'll soon forget where the time has gone.

"Why bring in the vets to round out a roster when your goal is to get another high draft pick to build around?":

Because your two best players, Hemsky and Penner are in the 2nd last year of their contracts. Getting the playoffs can only help them to re-sign here.

Because this team isn't a lottery team as currently built, so getting into the top 3 is probably a longer shot than making the playoffs with some quality vets on the PK.

If Hemsky, Penner, Gagner, Horcoff, Whitney, Smid, Gilbert, and Khabby stay healthy, I can't see them being terrible enough to be a lottery team.

Because everyone agrees (and Lowe said it on Oilchange pt 2) that making the playoffs this year would be great and give the kids some valuable experience.

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#87 Dyckster
October 22 2010, 12:09PM
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Woodguy wrote:

"You fail to realize maybe most of those free agents wanted nothing to do with Edmonton and you can't just make any trade you want whenever you want, it's a two way street. Is it possible Tambo didn't have many trade options on the table for 2nd pair dmen and 4th line guys???"

That's crap.

Phoneix was a laughing stock 2 years ago with no owner and Maloney managed to sign quality vets like Fiddler, Lang, Prucha and Pyatt.

This year Florida was projected to be 15th in the east and they add similar players like Reasoner and Higgins.

Reasoner was had for an AHL center. Not quite a blockbuster trade.

Wild projected 13th or 14th in West and get Madden for 1 year.

Don't let Tambellini off the hook.

DDO,

Yes, Vandermeer saved $$$, but this team is $13M under the cap and paying Big Sexy $4.5M to play in the AHL, so $$$ arguments aren't what they were last year.

With all the extra cap space, they could have secured at least 1 decent UFA with a one year overpay. Madden would really prefer to play in Minnesota for 1.25 instead of Edmonton at 2?

I don't buy that.

Tambellini can't trade for quality help on the 4th line? Don't buy that either.

All the other GM's seem to be able to do this. Maloney did a ton of it and his team was a laughing stock that turned into a playoff team with all his little moves to help his young talent.

Everyone can do it, but Tambellini can't? Well if he can't they should bring in someone who can.

D-man,

If you get more scoring chances for than against you will win more games than lose and probably make the playoffs.

The current 4th line (who are 1PK) are getting destroyed at this metric and are a black hole on the PK.

A quality 4th line PK will help and not hurt, and these guys hurt.

All/most of your points are valid, but you're forgetting one important factor.

No one participating in this or any other blog knows if making the playoffs is even an objective of this years team. The things you're suggesting would most certainly make the Oil more competitive. Your assuming though, this years version of our beloved ice hockey franchise is/was actually built to compete at a top eight level. That may not be the case.

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#88 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 12:17PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

"This is not about Hall vs Seguin, it's about winger vs centre position."

Yes, winger vs center is the debate.

And stating that swapping 1 winger for another of similar caliber wouldn't affect teams performance, doesn't support your side. (in fact it doesn't support any side.)

You are still not answering the question, come up with a rebutle or don't waste your time or sit on the fence. It's a simple question, don't throw your biased opinion.

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#89 David S
October 22 2010, 12:17PM
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Woodguy wrote:

"You fail to realize maybe most of those free agents wanted nothing to do with Edmonton and you can't just make any trade you want whenever you want, it's a two way street. Is it possible Tambo didn't have many trade options on the table for 2nd pair dmen and 4th line guys???"

That's crap.

Phoneix was a laughing stock 2 years ago with no owner and Maloney managed to sign quality vets like Fiddler, Lang, Prucha and Pyatt.

This year Florida was projected to be 15th in the east and they add similar players like Reasoner and Higgins.

Reasoner was had for an AHL center. Not quite a blockbuster trade.

Wild projected 13th or 14th in West and get Madden for 1 year.

Don't let Tambellini off the hook.

DDO,

Yes, Vandermeer saved $$$, but this team is $13M under the cap and paying Big Sexy $4.5M to play in the AHL, so $$$ arguments aren't what they were last year.

With all the extra cap space, they could have secured at least 1 decent UFA with a one year overpay. Madden would really prefer to play in Minnesota for 1.25 instead of Edmonton at 2?

I don't buy that.

Tambellini can't trade for quality help on the 4th line? Don't buy that either.

All the other GM's seem to be able to do this. Maloney did a ton of it and his team was a laughing stock that turned into a playoff team with all his little moves to help his young talent.

Everyone can do it, but Tambellini can't? Well if he can't they should bring in someone who can.

D-man,

If you get more scoring chances for than against you will win more games than lose and probably make the playoffs.

The current 4th line (who are 1PK) are getting destroyed at this metric and are a black hole on the PK.

A quality 4th line PK will help and not hurt, and these guys hurt.

Woodguy - you're talking to guys who think "re-build" means "suck for 4 years followed by cup wins". For me, a re-build concentrates on the "build" part. That means shoring up weaknesses with short-term NHL calibre players (which as you have correctly asserted are abundant) while developing your home grown talent.

To my mind we're tanking this year. Either that or the Oilers are borderline stupid, which I cannot in all conscience believe. Its the only explanation for what we're seeing here.

And to the guys out there who say a healthy fourth line doesn't help you win. Maybe not, but last night we saw a fourth line that helped us lose. If we wanted to be competitive, Foster and Jones would be gone, plain and simple.

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#90 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 12:23PM
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Jason T wrote:

So now that Hall's good enough to be in the NHL, we're back to the "shoulda drafted a centre" crap? WTF is wrong with some people here? Why would you draft the 2nd best player over need.

If this team is wanting to contend in 3-5 years, maybe that centerman comes over the next 3 years? You don't know? Gagner is producing just fine as a 21 year old right now as well, what he' look like with 3 more years under his belt.

The Hall/Seguin debate was laughable at the time, even moreso now. There was no debate, Hall's was the guy, is the guy. Name a Canadian who went 1st overall who couldn't make the WJ team? Along with all he accomplished in junior? It wasn't, and isn't, close.

Great game by Hall last night. He's 100% NHL ready. Can you guys just admit you're wrong. You're the vocal minority. It's rediculous.

Next topic.

Many superstars didn't play in the wjc at 17, neither did Hall. going 1st doesn't guarentee anything.

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#91 SuntanOil
October 22 2010, 12:31PM
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First of all, get over the Souray thing - he is gone. Even if he wasn't all those negative things that it's been whispered that he was, he is gone. Even if he, Katz, Lowe, and Tambellini had a kiss and make-up orgy at the Playboy mansion - he is still gone. Sheldon Souray is gone. If we recall him he will be claimed, if we leave him in Hershey he is not here. You can bitch and whine and moan about it all you want, but he is gone, and he ain't coming back.

"We're 4-1 with Souray in the line-up" - WTF??? when ???? 2008??? Worst (and least factual) point ever.

This just makes your cries to trade Smid all the more ridiculous. You sound like the Leafs fans whining about Jason Smith before the Leafs traded him to us for two picks (Jonathon Zion and Kris Vernarsky). He hardly has a Charmin approach to the game.

I honestly cannot tolerate this much longer. It's as if the idea of a rebuild escapes some, while others are so used to complaining about the Oil they need to manufacture things to complain about to continue to feel like a fan.

Take a cue from LT folks. Last night's loss was not step backwards for the team as there were a lot of positives to be taken. That will not always be the case, so enjoy it while you can.

There will be plenty of time to bitch and whine and moan and cry that the sky is falling in later on in the season. Today just isn't that day. Doing it today just seems to be contrariwise debating for a "fan" site.

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#92 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 12:31PM
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Jason T wrote:

A lot of if's there. You're trying to state all things are equal in those cases, and they're not in the Seguin/Eberle comparison.

What were their divisions like? What's Regina's goalie like? How are the defense's on either team? How much production did the team's get out of 20 year olds? Etc.?

You can't cherry pic one stat, one point, and have it hold water to make a point.

Patrick Kane just won a cup as a winger taken 1st overall. That's a cherry picken stats. That's basically what you're doing to support your arguements. There's more to it that just that man. Just like in the Kane case. ALL of the other variables have to be there, like Seabrook, Keith, Toews, Sharp, etc. It's all part of it.

So you want to ask about 20 year olds, but forget about Windsors. Don't forget Tuebert is a 2 time wjc allum and Jordan Weal was a 100 point playa, playa!

Toews did win the conn smythe and was a centre, and just in case you forgot 4 of the 5 best players on the team that you named were C or D-Men.

On the Oilers 5 of the 6 best players/ prospects are wingers, Hemsky,Penner, Hall, Paajarvi,Eberle and Whitney. That's a bad ratio.

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#93 Quicksilver ballet
October 22 2010, 12:33PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

~Good to see the patient rebuild in action~

Why should our goals be at an alltime low here, are we clinging to the prolonged under perfomance on behalf of Barry Fraser/Kevin Pendergast excuse? Just the thought of fan expectations settling in on another shot at a lottery pick sickens me and effectively devalues the professional hockey entertainment dollar.

The ingrediants to have a much more successful team are here now, we have an established group of veterens to go with a group the likes of Gagner,Hall, Eberle,MPS and Omark as well the goaltending if Khabibulin can stay healthy. If Tambellini can just burry the hatchet with Souray to help shore up the blueline some it may not be the gutter kind of season most expect.

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#94 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 12:37PM
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"No one participating in this or any other blog knows if making the playoffs is even an objective of this years team. The things you're suggesting would most certainly make the Oil more competitive. Your assuming though, this years version of our beloved ice hockey franchise is/was actually built to compete at a top eight level. That may not be the case."

That's true.

Lowe saying on Oilchange pt2 that making the playoffs would be "fantastic" leads me to believe they would like it to happen.

I just can't see a team with a healthy 89,83,27,10,77,6,5,35 being terrible enough to be in the lottery.

So why not add quality instead of the dregs?

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#95 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 12:40PM
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Jason T wrote:

Wake up? Really?

You guys are the jokers who over and over and over have been ripping the decision, ripping Hall, shoulda drafted a centerman, etc.

And there you go, cherry picken a stat as usual, like most who are scrambling to support a reduculous position(3pts vs 1 pt over a 5 game segment).

I'm not going to convince guys like yourself, Shatty, or Speeds. You've made up your mind. You're the vocal minority. I just hope all 3 of you man up when over time are proven wrong.

Again, Seguin didn't make our junior squad, didn't win jack in junior, hasn't been the best player on the best team (the old Lafluer vs Dionne debate), etc. I'll cherry pick those stats like you're doing with yours.

The NHL isn't the NFL. You don't draft for need. You take the best player. 5 years down the road, we'll have our answer.

Are you hurt that much that you purposely had to misspell my name, "chame chame chame", to quote Phillipay.

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#96 Horcsky
October 22 2010, 12:43PM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

Why should our goals be at an alltime low here, are we clinging to the prolonged under perfomance on behalf of Barry Fraser/Kevin Pendergast excuse? Just the thought of fan expectations settling in on another shot at a lottery pick sickens me and effectively devalues the professional hockey entertainment dollar.

The ingrediants to have a much more successful team are here now, we have an established group of veterens to go with a group the likes of Gagner,Hall, Eberle,MPS and Omark as well the goaltending if Khabibulin can stay healthy. If Tambellini can just burry the hatchet with Souray to help shore up the blueline some it may not be the gutter kind of season most expect.

While I agree with you on the idea that we shouldn't have 30th overall as a goal, and that rebuilds don't necessarily need to mean last overall every year, I don't think bringing up Souray is the answer. Not only has he epitomized the culture of entitlement and disrespect, but his defensive play is hardly the kind you would want "shoring up" the blueline.

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#97 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 12:45PM
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C-DOG wrote:

You are still not answering the question, come up with a rebutle or don't waste your time or sit on the fence. It's a simple question, don't throw your biased opinion.

Maybe I missed it Shadi, but I haven't seen a question from you.

I haven't debated the issue this blog, I'm debating the piece your brought up as support for your side.

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#98 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 12:47PM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

Why should our goals be at an alltime low here, are we clinging to the prolonged under perfomance on behalf of Barry Fraser/Kevin Pendergast excuse? Just the thought of fan expectations settling in on another shot at a lottery pick sickens me and effectively devalues the professional hockey entertainment dollar.

The ingrediants to have a much more successful team are here now, we have an established group of veterens to go with a group the likes of Gagner,Hall, Eberle,MPS and Omark as well the goaltending if Khabibulin can stay healthy. If Tambellini can just burry the hatchet with Souray to help shore up the blueline some it may not be the gutter kind of season most expect.

The point was that Smid is still a very young player, and plays a position that typically develops slowly.

He likely wont be truly hitting his stride for another 2-3 years.... yet you think it's time to "flush him".

Maybe if we had 6 other dmen that look like they will be hitting their stride at the same time Hall/Eberle/MPS/Gagner all get good then your idea would have some merit.

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#99 Dyckster
October 22 2010, 12:48PM
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Woodguy wrote:

"No one participating in this or any other blog knows if making the playoffs is even an objective of this years team. The things you're suggesting would most certainly make the Oil more competitive. Your assuming though, this years version of our beloved ice hockey franchise is/was actually built to compete at a top eight level. That may not be the case."

That's true.

Lowe saying on Oilchange pt2 that making the playoffs would be "fantastic" leads me to believe they would like it to happen.

I just can't see a team with a healthy 89,83,27,10,77,6,5,35 being terrible enough to be in the lottery.

So why not add quality instead of the dregs?

"Lowe saying on Oilchange pt2 that making the playoffs would be "fantastic" leads me to believe they would like it to happen."

That's one viewpoint or:

When KLowe says - "Lowe saying on Oilchange pt2 that making the playoffs would be "fantastic" leads me to believe they would like it to happen."

He really means - "We don't have a hope in heck of making the playoffs, and have not built a team to do so. If we do, it would be a bloody miracle."

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#100 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 12:50PM
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@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

Never mind , we'll have file to file it under agree to disagree.

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