This Is Us

Lowetide
October 22 2010 07:36AM

Last night's Oilers game was an enjoyable one. Although the town team lost, most shifts gave fans an indication about things to come. Speed, skill, passes and dekes that showed the true beauty of the game. Buckle up, this is going to be a fast ride.  

This is us. A fun team to watch, run and gun--maybe a little shy on finishing the play--and high event at both ends of the ice. Hemsky stirs the drink, and the kids offer a hint about the future. If you measure this season in wins and losses bring out the Glenlivet now. Small steps, folks. And there were plenty last night.

Taylor Hall didn't have any finish last night but (as his coach said after the game) the kid had his best NHL game. Mark Spector wrote a nice piece here and I think we can feel pretty good about this team's future despite the loss on home ice. Hall was the most obvious youngster last night, but the other two rookie forwards had their strong moments too. Magnus Pääjärvi must certainly lead the league in penalties drawn after the Minny game, and Jordan Eberle continues to amaze with his anticipation and execution in all three zones. Big brain.

At this point we should hope the Oilers finally start Dubnyk and begin the final march toward making a decision on the backup goalie, and there's probably a slight hint of an opportunity for a switch-out along the blue (Strudwick in, likely Vandermeer out). I don't think there's any help coming via trade, at this point in the season teams will be asking the moon ("a battle ship for a rowboat"- a Punch Imlach line) for puck movers along the blue. I'd guess Petry or Belle would be the first option to upgrade the passing from the defense.

The 4th line is a mess, but I don't know that there's much they can do about it. Fraser needs to play until he's comfortable (Kurtis Foster settled in nicely last night, at least compared to previous performances) and Jones had played well until last night. I wonder a little about Zack Stortini, he seems to be getting less love from this coach than he did from his other two NHL coaches (HS opening night, no hesitation to staple his ass to the bench last night).

A wild guess has Dubnyk playing Saturday and Strudwick also drawing in. If there's a pool on this stuff, I'll bet they call up Shawn Belle when a goalie is finally sent packing.

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
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#101 speeds
October 22 2010, 12:53PM
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Jason T wrote:

Wake up? Really?

You guys are the jokers who over and over and over have been ripping the decision, ripping Hall, shoulda drafted a centerman, etc.

And there you go, cherry picken a stat as usual, like most who are scrambling to support a reduculous position(3pts vs 1 pt over a 5 game segment).

I'm not going to convince guys like yourself, Shatty, or Speeds. You've made up your mind. You're the vocal minority. I just hope all 3 of you man up when over time are proven wrong.

Again, Seguin didn't make our junior squad, didn't win jack in junior, hasn't been the best player on the best team (the old Lafluer vs Dionne debate), etc. I'll cherry pick those stats like you're doing with yours.

The NHL isn't the NFL. You don't draft for need. You take the best player. 5 years down the road, we'll have our answer.

Huh?

Here's my post on the Hall/Seguin debate:

http://hockeysymposium.blogspot.com/2010/06/2010-draft-top-40-1-2.html

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#102 speeds
October 22 2010, 12:54PM
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Jason T wrote:

Wake up? Really?

You guys are the jokers who over and over and over have been ripping the decision, ripping Hall, shoulda drafted a centerman, etc.

And there you go, cherry picken a stat as usual, like most who are scrambling to support a reduculous position(3pts vs 1 pt over a 5 game segment).

I'm not going to convince guys like yourself, Shatty, or Speeds. You've made up your mind. You're the vocal minority. I just hope all 3 of you man up when over time are proven wrong.

Again, Seguin didn't make our junior squad, didn't win jack in junior, hasn't been the best player on the best team (the old Lafluer vs Dionne debate), etc. I'll cherry pick those stats like you're doing with yours.

The NHL isn't the NFL. You don't draft for need. You take the best player. 5 years down the road, we'll have our answer.

Huh?

Here's my post on the Hall/Seguin debate:

http://hockeysymposium.blogspot.com/2010/06/2010-draft-top-40-1-2.html

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#103 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 12:57PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Never mind , we'll have file to file it under agree to disagree.

Ha-ha, theirs nothing to agree to disagree with!

Swapping the junior versions of Eberle for Hall, whithout changing the teams outcome doesn't prove (heck it doesn't even support) that centers are more important.

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#104 rubbertrout
October 22 2010, 12:58PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

I think that it's a poor use of a #1 pick to force him into a position he doesnt play. Do the Oilers need a good Centre or a Great LW? I'll take the great LW and draft another centre.

~Not that it hurt Mark Messier~

*before some smart ass point it out I recognize that he wasn't drafted in the first round.

If memory serves Bobby Hull didn't really come of age until he switched positions as well (from one wing to the other).

Let's not just assume that TH is a LW and only a LW.

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#105 madjam
October 22 2010, 01:01PM
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Minny added many cheap additions and they are all paying off in spades to be honest . Madden ,Cullen , Nystom and Barker just to name a few have made Minny a much better club with plenty of good useable depth . Oilers additions fall far short of Minny's i'm afraid . The underproduction of Gagner , Cogs and Brule don't help matters with fillins of the bubble variety . I don't think you'll have to wait 20 games before making an accurate assessment on most of our squad - as it's pretty evident and expected to begin with already !

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#106 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 01:04PM
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@Jason T

Don't forget what they could of also aquired assets from Boston for passing on Hall, Chiarelli said "were not willing to give up this, this,this and this for the the player we want", but I am sure they could of got at least 2 thing from Boston, Boston had a lot of picks, I would think they could of got the 32nd pick and drafted Petrovich with it, 6'4 tough and agile western d-man.

Remember on the first Oilchange when Stu M was saying that the org did not have anyone like Gudbransan, when debating the 3rd best player in the draft and forced everyone to say Gudbranson and then to say see it's a democracy (jokeingly).Drafting for need would of mattered then.

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#107 rubbertrout
October 22 2010, 01:04PM
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cableguy - 2nd Tier Fan wrote:

someone needs to get Hall to hook up with a fat chick. Time proven slump buster.

That was awesome.

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#108 rubbertrout
October 22 2010, 01:07PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

The only thing laughable about the Hall/Seguin debate was the fact that there were so many people who didnt think it was close. One kid scored more goals, doubled the other kid's production 5 on 5, played a better complete game, and did it all with lesser teammates. The other kid was drafted 1st.

~But yeah, Hall (1pt in 5 games) was hands down better than Seguin (3pt 5 games).~

Hall will be a very good LW for this club. He was electric last night, but wake up. There hasnt been enough time passed to definitively say that Seguin was the 2nd best player in that draft.

It always pains me to have to agree with you Arch but in this case I do 100%.

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#109 Pajamah
October 22 2010, 01:08PM
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madjam wrote:

Minny added many cheap additions and they are all paying off in spades to be honest . Madden ,Cullen , Nystom and Barker just to name a few have made Minny a much better club with plenty of good useable depth . Oilers additions fall far short of Minny's i'm afraid . The underproduction of Gagner , Cogs and Brule don't help matters with fillins of the bubble variety . I don't think you'll have to wait 20 games before making an accurate assessment on most of our squad - as it's pretty evident and expected to begin with already !

I think I speak for everyone here when I say......

...ummm, what?

the Oilers didn't add veterans because they needed roster spots for the rookies. They aren't trying to be Phoenix, they're trying to be Colorado

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#110 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 01:11PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Ha-ha, theirs nothing to agree to disagree with!

Swapping the junior versions of Eberle for Hall, whithout changing the teams outcome doesn't prove (heck it doesn't even support) that centers are more important.

It means that a great winger like Hall couldn't lead Regina to the playoffs, but a great centre like Seguin probobly could because what he did with Plymouth.

You pretend not to know the question, because you can't debunk this theory thats time tested and factually true.

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#111 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 01:19PM
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C-DOG wrote:

It means that a great winger like Hall couldn't lead Regina to the playoffs, but a great centre like Seguin probobly could because what he did with Plymouth.

You pretend not to know the question, because you can't debunk this theory thats time tested and factually true.

Not that it matters, but that's not what you said.

What you said was:

"Lets say Hall played for Regina and Eberle played for Windsor, does Regina still miss the playoffs and does Windsor still win the memorial cup?

I beleive nothing would of changed. Eberle was the best junior in the C.H.L, the most clutch player and best goal scorer."

Given your second paragraph, you are saying Eberle = Hall (at least last years 19 year old Eberle/17 year old Hall)...in fact it reads like you think Eberle > Hall.

So why would a rational human being conclude that swapping the two would have gotten Regina into the playoffs?

That Shadi, is why I said your post was ridiculous.

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#112 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 01:20PM
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Pajamah wrote:

I think I speak for everyone here when I say......

...ummm, what?

the Oilers didn't add veterans because they needed roster spots for the rookies. They aren't trying to be Phoenix, they're trying to be Colorado

Fraser, Vandermeer, Strudwick, Jones, JFJ, and Smac are not rookies.

These are some of the guys you would not sign/trade for in order to have the right vets.

You cannot point at the rookies and say there is no room for vets.

They have vets.

They are just not good vets.

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#113 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 01:21PM
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C-DOG wrote:

It means that a great winger like Hall couldn't lead Regina to the playoffs, but a great centre like Seguin probobly could because what he did with Plymouth.

You pretend not to know the question, because you can't debunk this theory thats time tested and factually true.

Now if you actually wanted to post a logical, supporting argument. You would have said:

Eberle = Seguin (at least 19 year old Eberle and 17 year old Seguin)

And that Regina would have made the PO if they had Seguin rather then Eberle.

Meaning of two equivalent players, the center would have gotten them to the PO, while the winger didn't

Unfortunatly though, you would have been guessing.

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#114 Dyckster
October 22 2010, 01:33PM
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madjam wrote:

Minny added many cheap additions and they are all paying off in spades to be honest . Madden ,Cullen , Nystom and Barker just to name a few have made Minny a much better club with plenty of good useable depth . Oilers additions fall far short of Minny's i'm afraid . The underproduction of Gagner , Cogs and Brule don't help matters with fillins of the bubble variety . I don't think you'll have to wait 20 games before making an accurate assessment on most of our squad - as it's pretty evident and expected to begin with already !

"The underproduction of Gagner"....

4 assists in 5 games is underproduction?

He's on pace for 65 assists (just proving a point, i KNOW 5 games is too early to predict...), but still.

I'm guessing most fans would be happy if Gagner went something like 15G 45A = 60pts.

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#115 Ducey
October 22 2010, 01:36PM
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Woodguy,

You seem to have the notion that if you repeat the same argument, over and over and over, that somehow you will convince everyone of your position.

We understand where you are coming from.

Move off the roof top, put down the megaphone, and do something more useful with your day than repeat the same argument 45 times.

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#116 madjam
October 22 2010, 01:40PM
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Pajamah wrote:

I think I speak for everyone here when I say......

...ummm, what?

the Oilers didn't add veterans because they needed roster spots for the rookies. They aren't trying to be Phoenix, they're trying to be Colorado

Then what do you call our bubble players we added . Huge difference between what we added and Minny despite the openings , or can you not see that ? The whole dispute has never been about keeping 3 openings for the rookies in the first place - so why do so many of you try and use that for an excuse befounds me and others i'm sure . Get it thru your heads it's not about the 3 openings for the rookies thats disconcerting . We didn't like the way Mact. handled the kids and then Quinn . Now it's Renney turn to try and get Gagner , Brule and Cogs to play as top 6 forwards . Maybe Quinn was right to pass them down to third and fourth line status afterall. Good luck Renney , as i see possibly all three of them losing out to Paajarvi , Eberle and Hall in the near future . Maybe Quinn was victim of lack of progression of those 3 i just mentioned .

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#117 Crackenbury
October 22 2010, 01:50PM
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rubbertrout wrote:

That was awesome.

Easily the most intelligent comment made today,

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#118 Ender
October 22 2010, 01:54PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

The only thing laughable about the Hall/Seguin debate was the fact that there were so many people who didnt think it was close. One kid scored more goals, doubled the other kid's production 5 on 5, played a better complete game, and did it all with lesser teammates. The other kid was drafted 1st.

~But yeah, Hall (1pt in 5 games) was hands down better than Seguin (3pt 5 games).~

Hall will be a very good LW for this club. He was electric last night, but wake up. There hasnt been enough time passed to definitively say that Seguin was the 2nd best player in that draft.

Well said, Arch.

Archaeologuy wrote:

For the record, I'm not anti-Hall, I'm anti-pretending-Hall-is-something-he-isnt. If people were so concerned about having a Centre then the decision should have been easy last year. So when people start demanding that Hall be converted, I will bring up the fact that the Oilers had a better option in June 2010.

Also nicely put.

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#119 cableguy - 2nd Tier Fan
October 22 2010, 02:04PM
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Crackenbury wrote:

Easily the most intelligent comment made today,

is it sad that i can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not?

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#120 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 02:08PM
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Ducey,

More or less just answer those who disagree, but yes I've been beating this drum hard, but I think its a travesty that Tambellini doesn't get questioned on this.

Also,

Quain posted the Even strength scoring chance differential over 5 games:

Hemsky 64.3% Penner 59.5% Gagner 58.5% Horcoff 56.3% Eberle 55.9% Hall 55.3% Cogliano 40.7% Paajarvi 35.5% Stortini 33.3% Brule 31.0% Jones 25.9% Fraser 25.0% MacIntyre 0%

Gilber 54.3% Smid 51.3% Whitney 50.0% Foster 45.0% Peckham 41.9% Vandermeer 40.9%

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#121 Ender
October 22 2010, 02:08PM
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@ Shadi D.T.A.

If for no other reason, props to you on a Friday afternoon for brightening my day with the memory of Felipe.

"Chame, chame, chame . . ."

[smiles wistfully]

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#122 Oilers89
October 22 2010, 02:08PM
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Eberle was a centre in junior, though he looks good on the wing, but he does play a very good two-way game. So the only question is if he can win draws and since he seems to be good at everything else, I bet he would be good at winning draws.

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#123 D-Man
October 22 2010, 02:36PM
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@Woodguy

To limit scoring chances you rely on the your top four defensemen, your 3rd line (maybe 2nd depending on your personnel) and a solid goaltender - not a 4th line that plays 10 to 12 minutes a game. Your 'typical' 4th line is the energy line that goes out, hits everything that moves and tries to remain 'even' when it comes to plus minus. Those AREN'T the guys you send out to 'shut down' the other teams top scoring units.

The current 4th line got destroyed in ONE GAME, and didn't do too bad the games prior... I'm sure you were also one of the guys salivating as we saw MacIntyre destroy Ivanas in the home opener... I'm guessing you also thought Jones wasn't nearly as bad as we all thought (up to the last game as well)...

I do think you're right about our PK - it needs a ton of work. I don't believe that's due to Frasor and Jones as much as it is the system we have. We appear to give up the slot too much in the box and allow the opposing PP to enter the zone too easily. For whatever reason, we place both wingers along the boards and have the defense up the middle in the neutral zone... Not sure why we do that, but I guess that's why Renney's the coach and you and I are simple fans/armchair GM's...

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#124 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 02:45PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Now if you actually wanted to post a logical, supporting argument. You would have said:

Eberle = Seguin (at least 19 year old Eberle and 17 year old Seguin)

And that Regina would have made the PO if they had Seguin rather then Eberle.

Meaning of two equivalent players, the center would have gotten them to the PO, while the winger didn't

Unfortunatly though, you would have been guessing.

There you go with guessing again because you don't have an intelligent comeback.

Why don't you come up with a successfull argument for a team winning with predominatetly wingers, you can't, and you look foolish, once a team proves me wrong then you can debate, untill then history(FACTS) prevails and your delusions continue.

You need to learn when you have lost a debate, saying that I am guessing with decades of proof does not cut it.

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#125 D-Man
October 22 2010, 02:45PM
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David S wrote:

Woodguy - you're talking to guys who think "re-build" means "suck for 4 years followed by cup wins". For me, a re-build concentrates on the "build" part. That means shoring up weaknesses with short-term NHL calibre players (which as you have correctly asserted are abundant) while developing your home grown talent.

To my mind we're tanking this year. Either that or the Oilers are borderline stupid, which I cannot in all conscience believe. Its the only explanation for what we're seeing here.

And to the guys out there who say a healthy fourth line doesn't help you win. Maybe not, but last night we saw a fourth line that helped us lose. If we wanted to be competitive, Foster and Jones would be gone, plain and simple.

A rebuild doesn't mean 'suck for 4 years followed by cup wins'... It does concentrate on the build part, but not as quickly as you or Woodguy would think... Do you think Chicago intentionally sucked for 7 years?? How about Pittsburgh or Washington?? They built through the draft - scored huge on their picks and improved over time.

The thought that 'short-term NHL calibre' players are abundant may be true, but at what cost?? The fact that we have cap space doesn't mean we should overspend unnecessarily... Katz is also in this business to make money right??

Name me a 4th line on any Cup (or playoff) team that was a difference maker. Perhaps I overstated the fact that it doesn't help you win, but I can't possibly imagine how you would think Reddox or say Marty Reasoner would help us win another 10 to 15 games to make the playoffs...

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#126 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 02:47PM
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Ender wrote:

@ Shadi D.T.A.

If for no other reason, props to you on a Friday afternoon for brightening my day with the memory of Felipe.

"Chame, chame, chame . . ."

[smiles wistfully]

I knew I spelled his name wrong. You must be at least 35.

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#127 D-Man
October 22 2010, 02:48PM
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Ducey wrote:

Woodguy,

You seem to have the notion that if you repeat the same argument, over and over and over, that somehow you will convince everyone of your position.

We understand where you are coming from.

Move off the roof top, put down the megaphone, and do something more useful with your day than repeat the same argument 45 times.

Here! Here!!

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#128 Ender
October 22 2010, 03:02PM
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C-DOG wrote:

I knew I spelled his name wrong. You must be at least 35.

~You are askeeng my age?!

Geed out! Geed oud of my keetchen!!!~

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#129 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 03:17PM
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D-Man wrote:

To limit scoring chances you rely on the your top four defensemen, your 3rd line (maybe 2nd depending on your personnel) and a solid goaltender - not a 4th line that plays 10 to 12 minutes a game. Your 'typical' 4th line is the energy line that goes out, hits everything that moves and tries to remain 'even' when it comes to plus minus. Those AREN'T the guys you send out to 'shut down' the other teams top scoring units.

The current 4th line got destroyed in ONE GAME, and didn't do too bad the games prior... I'm sure you were also one of the guys salivating as we saw MacIntyre destroy Ivanas in the home opener... I'm guessing you also thought Jones wasn't nearly as bad as we all thought (up to the last game as well)...

I do think you're right about our PK - it needs a ton of work. I don't believe that's due to Frasor and Jones as much as it is the system we have. We appear to give up the slot too much in the box and allow the opposing PP to enter the zone too easily. For whatever reason, we place both wingers along the boards and have the defense up the middle in the neutral zone... Not sure why we do that, but I guess that's why Renney's the coach and you and I are simple fans/armchair GM's...

Dman,

You have it wrong.

Look at the scoring chances I just posted.

Those are cumulative from the first 5 games, and earlier I posted the ones from the first 4 games.

Line 4 has been destroyed 4 of 5 games, not just one game.

You are missing the point by saying "this line needs to do this and this d pair needs to do that"

The team needs to outchance the other team.

Due to bad vets and Cogs/Brule this team is being out chanced and are below .500

The top two lines and top two d pair are doing just fine. Look at the numbers.

These games are being lost on the PK and on the bottom two lines.

The proof is in front of you.

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#130 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 03:26PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Sorry Shadi, but your theory was a guess. You have no idea what any team would or wouldn't do if the swapped player X for player Y.

We've been over it a dozen times. Theirs crappy teams with great centers (Tampa bay/Carolina/Ducks last year).

Theirs very good teams with average centers (Pheonix/NJ/Nash last year)

If it was so much more important having a guy line up in the middle vs to the side, then why did the Penguins have Malkin start the season on Comries wing? Why do Zetterberg and Sharp play alot of wing as well as center?

Theirs far more "very good" centers in the leauge then their are "very good" wingers... dispite the fact that their are twice as many wingers then centers, their was 25 centers with 60+ points and 28 wingers with 60+ points (LW/RW combined). This is what skews your point of view to think that all the cup winners have really good centers without necessarly having really good wingers.

Everyone will have a different deffinition, but theirs probably 20-25 centers that most people would consider "top end", so it's probably safe to assume the Cup winners will have one of these guys.

The fact that you try to make this a black and white conversation is beyond ridiculous. It isn't the team with the best center that wins, it's the best TEAMS that win (or at least very good teams playing at their highest level)

They move them because they are very deep at centre, but please just an example is all I ask, you keep on saying there is a certain # of centres, but this team doesn't have one, so what does that say about the Oiler, you are so stuborn, you say it's the best teams that win ,but none are led with predominately wingers (Facts), no were did I say they don't need good wingers they just absolutely can't be your best players, like the Oilers and I guarentee it.

Last week it was 15-20 this week it's 20-25,so why don't 5-10 teams win with wingers as there stars every 30 years, because it is impossible(FACTS).

You probobly think if the Oilers never get a centre better than Gagner and never get a d-man better than Whitney and fill out their weaknesess in a couple of years they could realisticaly win the cup. Cooko,cooko!

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#131 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 03:36PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Sorry Shadi, but your theory was a guess. You have no idea what any team would or wouldn't do if the swapped player X for player Y.

We've been over it a dozen times. Theirs crappy teams with great centers (Tampa bay/Carolina/Ducks last year).

Theirs very good teams with average centers (Pheonix/NJ/Nash last year)

If it was so much more important having a guy line up in the middle vs to the side, then why did the Penguins have Malkin start the season on Comries wing? Why do Zetterberg and Sharp play alot of wing as well as center?

Theirs far more "very good" centers in the leauge then their are "very good" wingers... dispite the fact that their are twice as many wingers then centers, their was 25 centers with 60+ points and 28 wingers with 60+ points (LW/RW combined). This is what skews your point of view to think that all the cup winners have really good centers without necessarly having really good wingers.

Everyone will have a different deffinition, but theirs probably 20-25 centers that most people would consider "top end", so it's probably safe to assume the Cup winners will have one of these guys.

The fact that you try to make this a black and white conversation is beyond ridiculous. It isn't the team with the best center that wins, it's the best TEAMS that win (or at least very good teams playing at their highest level)

Pheonix lost to Detroit, Zetterberg, Datsyuk. N.J lost to Phili Carter, Richards,Giroux. Nash lost to Chicago Toews, Sharp,bolland.

Yes, the Oilers can be a good team just like them, but will never win the cup with these players and thats all that matters in my books. I told Stauffer last year that the best the Oilers can hope for is the Devils, post lockout, you know the ones without 2 hall of fame d-men, how ironic you used them as an example hah.

Sorry try again.

You have already lost due to the mercy rule, lucky for you there are no officials.

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#132 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 03:47PM
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This post was a complete mess, will try again with the structure later.

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#133 D-Man
October 22 2010, 04:00PM
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Woodguy wrote:

Dman,

You have it wrong.

Look at the scoring chances I just posted.

Those are cumulative from the first 5 games, and earlier I posted the ones from the first 4 games.

Line 4 has been destroyed 4 of 5 games, not just one game.

You are missing the point by saying "this line needs to do this and this d pair needs to do that"

The team needs to outchance the other team.

Due to bad vets and Cogs/Brule this team is being out chanced and are below .500

The top two lines and top two d pair are doing just fine. Look at the numbers.

These games are being lost on the PK and on the bottom two lines.

The proof is in front of you.

I'm assuming you're basing the entirety of the team's fortunes based on statistics from 5 games?? That's a bit too narrow minded, isn't it? Also - as important as scoring chances are important - you haven't included hits, shots, points, assists or anything else..

Making this decision that our 4th line sucks based on 5 games is way too quick to judge. That's not to say that we don't need to improve... Our PK is brutal; but basing everything on 5 games is way too hasty.

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#134 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 04:43PM
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C-DOG wrote:

They move them because they are very deep at centre, but please just an example is all I ask, you keep on saying there is a certain # of centres, but this team doesn't have one, so what does that say about the Oiler, you are so stuborn, you say it's the best teams that win ,but none are led with predominately wingers (Facts), no were did I say they don't need good wingers they just absolutely can't be your best players, like the Oilers and I guarentee it.

Last week it was 15-20 this week it's 20-25,so why don't 5-10 teams win with wingers as there stars every 30 years, because it is impossible(FACTS).

You probobly think if the Oilers never get a centre better than Gagner and never get a d-man better than Whitney and fill out their weaknesess in a couple of years they could realisticaly win the cup. Cooko,cooko!

The teams that win Cups have stars at every position.

They are led by multiple players at multiple positions.

The Hawks were great because of Toews/Kane/Sharp/Hossa/Kieth/Seabrook/Campbell and piles of depth... not because of Toews and Sharp.

The Ducks best forward when they won the cup was a winger.

The Devils best forward when they won the cup (2000) was a winger.

The Devils best forward when they won the cup (95) was a winger.

The Flames best forward when they won the cup was a winger.

The Habs 2 best forwards when they won the cup (86) were wingers.

The NYI best forward was a winger (4 cups)

The Habs two best forwards when they won the cup (76)

I think the Oilers will be Cup contenders if/when most/all of Eberle/Gagner/MSP/Hall/Smid become the players they are projected to be, get a goalie (Bulin will be/close to be gone by then) improve their D and add depth.

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#135 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 04:46PM
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Woodguy wrote:

Dman,

You have it wrong.

Look at the scoring chances I just posted.

Those are cumulative from the first 5 games, and earlier I posted the ones from the first 4 games.

Line 4 has been destroyed 4 of 5 games, not just one game.

You are missing the point by saying "this line needs to do this and this d pair needs to do that"

The team needs to outchance the other team.

Due to bad vets and Cogs/Brule this team is being out chanced and are below .500

The top two lines and top two d pair are doing just fine. Look at the numbers.

These games are being lost on the PK and on the bottom two lines.

The proof is in front of you.

I've been beating the same drum (add proven, vetran, 3 zone depth) for a couple of years. But I think your numbers against the 4th liners is a little misleading.

I would bet almost every teams 4th line is outchanced, that's why they are 4th liners.

To truely get value from those #'s they'd need to be compared to the rest of the league.

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#136 Woodguy
October 22 2010, 04:47PM
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Dman,

Agreed that the sample size is ridiculously small.

I'm just mad that Tambellini let his team down.

Scoring chances are more important than the other stats because over time they show a more complete picture.

All the other stats will come from the SC stat and give a more complete picture about who helps and who hurts.

Shots is a good predicitve stat. Scoring chances is a little better.

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#137 Archaeologuy
October 22 2010, 04:59PM
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@Ender

Thanks.

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#138 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 05:09PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

The teams that win Cups have stars at every position.

They are led by multiple players at multiple positions.

The Hawks were great because of Toews/Kane/Sharp/Hossa/Kieth/Seabrook/Campbell and piles of depth... not because of Toews and Sharp.

The Ducks best forward when they won the cup was a winger.

The Devils best forward when they won the cup (2000) was a winger.

The Devils best forward when they won the cup (95) was a winger.

The Flames best forward when they won the cup was a winger.

The Habs 2 best forwards when they won the cup (86) were wingers.

The NYI best forward was a winger (4 cups)

The Habs two best forwards when they won the cup (76)

I think the Oilers will be Cup contenders if/when most/all of Eberle/Gagner/MSP/Hall/Smid become the players they are projected to be, get a goalie (Bulin will be/close to be gone by then) improve their D and add depth.

Ducks, Getzlaf led in scoring 2 hof d-men,Devils 2 hof d-men and goalie, Flames Neuwindyk, Gilmour, centres, Macinis hof/ Conn Smythe, NYI Trottier,Potvin, Habs 76' 3 hof d-men and goalie.

I have always said Montreal 86,93 was the only exeption and they had the greatest goalie of all time, in the same seasons with the biggest upsets of all time NYI beat Pitt, Steve Smith beat Fuhr.

Did you notice of the players you put up for Chicago only Kane is a winger and did you also notice they traded Byfulien, Versteeg, Ladd wingers, and kept their centres.

Oilers don't have a franchise d or c. Each one of their centres on the top 3 lines is the least talented player on his line.

Application DENIED! Sorry try again.

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#140 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 05:38PM
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Lowetide wrote:

I think Fraser (as with Foster) will probably settle in at some point. He's been poor, but off-season arrivals often take a little while to adjust to things.

As for the C-W thing, no team I can recall has a Stanley without strength up the middle (C-D-G).

Having said that, it doesn't mean Taylor Hall has to be the center. Oilers had some pretty good wingers when they were winning Stanley's.

Very reasonable post.

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#141 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 06:00PM
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@Lowetide

I think c-w debate should be heightened in the salary cap era. Off the top of my head, Hossa 5.1 mil and Selane 3.9 mil I beleive were the highest paid wingers on any of the 5 stanley cup champions post salary cap era. That was with Perry, Penner, Getzlaf and Beauchemin making 1 mil or less, and with Hossa, Toews and Kane were on elc's.

I hate to rain on the parade but that is alarming.

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#142 Dutchscooter
October 22 2010, 06:08PM
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@Woodguy

'Phoneix was a laughing stock 2 years ago with no owner and Maloney managed to sign quality vets like Fiddler, Lang, Prucha and Pyatt.

This year Florida was projected to be 15th in the east and they add similar players like Reasoner and Higgins.

Reasoner was had for an AHL center. Not quite a blockbuster trade.'

While I agree with most of your points, there is one thing you did not take into account when you're signing all these seasoned NHL vets: most of your examples were in Phoenix and Florida. Last time I checked, these places don't have -40C weather during hockey season. That's important to a seasoned NHL vet with a family.

Ask Chris Pronger.

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#143 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 07:03PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Ducks, Getzlaf led in scoring 2 hof d-men,Devils 2 hof d-men and goalie, Flames Neuwindyk, Gilmour, centres, Macinis hof/ Conn Smythe, NYI Trottier,Potvin, Habs 76' 3 hof d-men and goalie.

I have always said Montreal 86,93 was the only exeption and they had the greatest goalie of all time, in the same seasons with the biggest upsets of all time NYI beat Pitt, Steve Smith beat Fuhr.

Did you notice of the players you put up for Chicago only Kane is a winger and did you also notice they traded Byfulien, Versteeg, Ladd wingers, and kept their centres.

Oilers don't have a franchise d or c. Each one of their centres on the top 3 lines is the least talented player on his line.

Application DENIED! Sorry try again.

Man this is a joke.

Yes Shadi, The Stanley Cup winners also had high end players at other positions. I've already stated that Top teams have top players scatterd throught their line-up.

Just like you can list high end C/D/G on cup winners with great wingers, I can list high end wingers on cup winners with great C/D/G.

Hawks Kane/Hossa (2 just like I listed but you missed)

Wings: Zetterberg

Ducks: Selane/Perry/Kunitz

Canes: Wiliams/Cole/Whitney

TB: St Loius/Modin

NJ: Elias/lagenbruner

Wings: Shanahan/ Robitaille /Hull

Avs: Hejduk/Drury/Tanguay

Top teams with top players throught the line-up

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#144 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 07:22PM
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Playoff MVP has been won by a winger 7 of the 45 times it's been awarded.

Regular season MVP has been won by a winger 12 times in the last 50 years.

Lester B Pearson award has been won by a winger 13 of the 30 times it's been awarded (and 9 of the last 11). (should hold alot of wieght considering it's their fellow players that vote rather then media)

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#145 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 08:07PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Man this is a joke.

Yes Shadi, The Stanley Cup winners also had high end players at other positions. I've already stated that Top teams have top players scatterd throught their line-up.

Just like you can list high end C/D/G on cup winners with great wingers, I can list high end wingers on cup winners with great C/D/G.

Hawks Kane/Hossa (2 just like I listed but you missed)

Wings: Zetterberg

Ducks: Selane/Perry/Kunitz

Canes: Wiliams/Cole/Whitney

TB: St Loius/Modin

NJ: Elias/lagenbruner

Wings: Shanahan/ Robitaille /Hull

Avs: Hejduk/Drury/Tanguay

Top teams with top players throught the line-up

Realy, those wingers are superstars/ franchise players, Zetterberg is a centre, Kunitz, Cole played 2 games , Williams, Modin, Hull and Robitielle at near 40, come on thats a stretch even for you I am waiting for the L.O.L. Are you sure your not trying to prove my point for me.

Post lockout 5 champs all had franchise centres 3 of them did not have a franchise winger. Only 2 teams had franchise wingers who of course already had the centre.

I will use your stats against you again!!, the lester b pearson is for regular season 65% by a winger, the conn smythe is for playoffs 16% by a winger, notice the drop off when championships are on the line, wingers sell seats centres win championships, considering a team is made up with 42% wingers those are horrible %'s

Please at least put up a fight or wait for N.J. or Phoenix to win the cup, this is becoming a joke, It feels like I am argueing with my kids.

Extremely sorry and please try again.

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#146 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 08:25PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Realy, those wingers are superstars/ franchise players, Zetterberg is a centre, Kunitz, Cole played 2 games , Williams, Modin, Hull and Robitielle at near 40, come on thats a stretch even for you I am waiting for the L.O.L. Are you sure your not trying to prove my point for me.

Post lockout 5 champs all had franchise centres 3 of them did not have a franchise winger. Only 2 teams had franchise wingers who of course already had the centre.

I will use your stats against you again!!, the lester b pearson is for regular season 65% by a winger, the conn smythe is for playoffs 16% by a winger, notice the drop off when championships are on the line, wingers sell seats centres win championships, considering a team is made up with 42% wingers those are horrible %'s

Please at least put up a fight or wait for N.J. or Phoenix to win the cup, this is becoming a joke, It feels like I am argueing with my kids.

Extremely sorry and please try again.

Same garbage over and over again. 20+ franchise centers vs 8-10 franchise winger league wide and yet you can't deducted that odds are better that the cup winning team will have a franchise center over a franchise winger.

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#147 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 22 2010, 08:37PM
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"the lester b pearson is for regular season 65% by a winger, the conn smythe is for playoffs 16%"

Yet the guys on the ice think the top guy has been a winger 65% of the time.

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#148 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 08:55PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

"the lester b pearson is for regular season 65% by a winger, the conn smythe is for playoffs 16%"

Yet the guys on the ice think the top guy has been a winger 65% of the time.

Is the goal for the Oilers to be a good regular season team? Then there on their way, but if the stanley cup is the goal then they are very far from it.

Not 1 stanley cup champ has had a winger earn more than 5.1 mil.

Can't you see the differece in MVP success from the regular season and the playoffs 65% is 4 times greater than 14%, and there are twice as many wingers than centres , Hellooo am I talking to a wall here.

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#149 Oilers89
October 22 2010, 09:05PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Ducks, Getzlaf led in scoring 2 hof d-men,Devils 2 hof d-men and goalie, Flames Neuwindyk, Gilmour, centres, Macinis hof/ Conn Smythe, NYI Trottier,Potvin, Habs 76' 3 hof d-men and goalie.

I have always said Montreal 86,93 was the only exeption and they had the greatest goalie of all time, in the same seasons with the biggest upsets of all time NYI beat Pitt, Steve Smith beat Fuhr.

Did you notice of the players you put up for Chicago only Kane is a winger and did you also notice they traded Byfulien, Versteeg, Ladd wingers, and kept their centres.

Oilers don't have a franchise d or c. Each one of their centres on the top 3 lines is the least talented player on his line.

Application DENIED! Sorry try again.

They kept their centres because they are their best player's, it had nothing to do with their position that they are playing. The guys that they got rid of are good player's but they didn't keep them for cap reasons, and obviously if it comes down to it do you keep Taylor Hall for example or Colin Fraser (Not to say that Fraser is as good as any of the player's listed above lol).

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#150 C-DOG
October 22 2010, 09:06PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Same garbage over and over again. 20+ franchise centers vs 8-10 franchise winger league wide and yet you can't deducted that odds are better that the cup winning team will have a franchise center over a franchise winger.

Yes, the odds are better probobly 2 to 1, so why don't wingers lead teams without #1 centres once every 3 years, because you build up the middle, ask any successful G.M.

My whole point about this is regarding the Oilers, if they don't upgrade Gagne and Whitney they have no hope in hell of winning a championship because 20-25 teams have those players like you stated, if there are so many and you don't have one what does that say, you still never even answered that question.

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