Tracking 2010

Lowetide
October 31 2010 08:13AM

It takes years to properly evaluate a specific draft year. However, we can count the arrows (good and bad) for each player in a specific draft and the 2010 Oilers entry draft is tracking extremely well. We've discussed Taylor Hall, Martin Marincin and Curtis Hamilton in past weeks, and in the last 7 days Ryan Martindale has joined the party.
 

The last entry draft for the Oilers that we can safely close the books on is 2002. Jarrett Stoll and Matt Greene are solid NHL players and Jeff Deslauriers is still trying to establish himself. The other 12 players selected by Kevin Prendergast and the scouting department include a couple of interesting items (including Jesse Niinimaki--he's posting some good numbers in Finland and I wouldn't rule out an NHL team giving him a shot) but we can probably make the call on the 2002 draft. However, from 2003 through 2010 there are too many variables, too many pages unwritten for any kind of conclusion to be drawn at this point in time.

We can say that the 2010 entry draft is tracking like a lion.

  • 1st overall: Taylor Hall. 9gp, 2-3-5 in the toughest league in the world, and sky's the limit. Watching a first overall pick play his first NHL season is a unique experience--it's equal parts worry and anticipation--and I think this fellow is going to do some amazing things  in the next few seasons.
  • 31st overall: Tyler Pitlick. 9gp, 3-7-10 in the WHL with Medicine Hat. Pitlick received a suspension this week (3 games) for a kneeing infraction against Nathan Deck of Prine Albert. Deck will reportedly miss 4-6 weeks because of the injury (torn MCL).
  • 46th overall: Martin Marincin. If you watched Oil Change in the last 10 days, then you know that the organization seriously considered taking this player at 31st overall. The Magnificent Bastard said "we need defensemen" and it looks like the scouting department hit an early home run here. 16gp, 7-11-18 with Prince George puts him in a tie for 21st overall in league scoring. He went 3gp, 1-2-3 -1 this past week.
  • 48th overall: Curtis Hamilton. 14gp, 6-10-16 with Saskatoon Blades. Hamilton's offense has dried up in the last 10 days (he was 7gp, 3-7-10 in the season's first two weeks) but he's in the top 10 plus minus and the big item for this player is health. Hamilton has played in all of the Blades games.
  • 61st overall: Ryan Martindale. The Ottawa 67 center had a strong week (4gp, 3-4-7 +4) and now ranks 11th in OHL scoring (16gp, 8-12-20). He's 2-5-7 on the PP.
  • 91st overall: Jeremie Blain. 2gp, 0-1-1 for Acadie-Bathurst (QMJHL). Titian GM Sylvain Couturier: "Blain is a key player for us and he's only played two games so far." Injury is a major prospect killer, and this young man is losing key development time.
  • 121st overall: G Tyler Bunz. 7gp, 2.99 .897SP for Medicine Hat. His SP ranks him 19th in the WHL, although his GAA puts him higher (13th). The other goalie (the incredibly named Deven Dubyk) has a .923SP so Bunz numbers don't stand out all things considered.
  • 162nd overall: D Brandon Davidson. 15gp, 1-8-9 with Regina (WHL). 3gp, 0-1-1 +2 this past week, as his team seems to be settling down a little after a monstrous start. Hard to evaluate at this early juncture, but he's putting up points and is certainly one of the team's top defenders.
  • 166th overall: L Drew Czerwanka. 15gp, 5-4-9 for Kootenay (WHL). 4gp, 1-2-3 -2 this week, he's now surpassed his goal scoring total from one year ago (4 in 54go). An interesting prospect, hard to get a complete read on him when browsing his scoring lines in the WHL.
  • 181st overall: C Kristians Pelss. 14gp, 1-1-2 with the Oil Kings (WHL). A quiet week (zip in 3gp) and he hasn't hit the scoresheet since October 9th. It's important to remember that players drafted at this point (181st overall) are extreme longshots to play in the NHL. The Oilers scouting department saw something in him, and there's almost always an adjustment period for these kids (Pelss was in Belarus a year ago). His 2nd half could be much better.
  • 202nd overall: L Kellen Jones. 6gp, 3-3-6 with Quinnipiac (NCAA). 20-year old leads his team in scoring and is having an immediate impact. There's a quick story on Jones and his brother here.

Although we're just 4 months beyond the draft, there's already some strong tells among the group. Taylor Hall looks capable of playing at the NHL level, Marincin is dominant in the WHL, Hamilton, Pitlick and Martindale are also doing good things in the CHL. Blain's injury and Bunz average play are the first bumps on the draft list, but Davidson and Czerwonka make the later rounds interesting. Pelss and Jones are "draft and follow" types that we'll be watching with interest years down the road.

That 2002 entry draft gave the Oilers two solid NHL players (Stoll, Greene) and a perennial goaltender prospect in JDD. The 2010 draft needs about 8 years to give us the same kind of focus, but we can say with some confidence that the kids drafted in the top 70 are tracking well out of the box.

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Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on TSN 1260.
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#51 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 10:24PM
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DSF wrote:

Avg.home attendance so far this season:

TB - 15,616.

Not too bad for a city that has an NFL team in a battle for their division.

Oilers would sell out commonwealth at $7/ticket to watch Lec/Stam/St louis/Hedman. But talking about week american markets is frustrating for Canadian fans.

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#52 Matt Henderson
October 31 2010, 10:25PM
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@commonfan13

Sidney Crosby had 109 points last season. He didnt have a single linemate with more than 50 points. Why didnt he make them better? If you believe Seguin should have made those guys better, then surely Crosby should have elevated his wingers as well.

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#54 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 10:28PM
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C-DOG wrote:

What would you expect him to say, "I disagree with Tambi and he twisted my arm". He initialy wanted Hall, but after watching both players carefully his instincts said Seguin, then he was convinced to change his mind because of playoff performances on the greatest junior team of all time, yes he was the best player ,but they were winning games by large margins, winning in junior doesn't always translate to the NHL.

Tambi going hard for the second pick showed me how much Stu liked Seguin,I don't know if the rumors were true on what they would of given up, but it does show the org's feelings about Seguin. I never said Stu was against drafting Hall, If Low/Tambi wanted Seguin or were split, I personaly beleive Seguin would be an Oiler.

And are you keeping score of something? (:0) realy! And who's MC.

So you are going with the conspiricy theory.

MC = Memorial Cup.

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#55 Ryan14
October 31 2010, 10:29PM
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@C-DOG

Crosby also played against top level talent his entire career.

Seguin is at a 6% discrepancy between home and away percentages. That is petty significant.

I would say our 21 year old face off man is doing pretty damn good considering he is playing against some of the best opposition. Our 23 year old should be traded for a multitude of reasons and our 30 year old is average.

It's been 9 games into seguins NHL career and your acting as if his career has been written in stone. Wait until he is no longer a third liner before you start comparing him to Crosby

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#56 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 10:30PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

Sidney Crosby had 109 points last season. He didnt have a single linemate with more than 50 points. Why didnt he make them better? If you believe Seguin should have made those guys better, then surely Crosby should have elevated his wingers as well.

Glad to see others catching onto this myth.

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#57 Matt Henderson
October 31 2010, 10:33PM
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@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

It's just mind boggling to me that Crosby cant elevate his wingers. The only possible conclusion I can come up with is that you are 100% correct. It's pure myth.

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#58 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 10:36PM
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commonfan13 wrote:

There's one thing I never got about the "Seguin had weaker line-mates" argument. If he's supposed to be this great franchise C, shouldn't he have been making those guys look better?

Seems to me he should have had GMs killing themselves years later for taking those guys too high when in hindsight it's clear they were just having career years because they were playing with the great Tyler Seguin.

He did make them look better, but do you expect him to turn them into allstars, proof he had weaker teamates is that he scored more goals than Hall and Hall had more assists, and most beleive Hall is the better goal scorer and Seguin is the better playmaker. That shows me he got those assists by playing with better finishers and Seguin had to go outside of his element and become a better goal scorer because he couldn't rely on his teamates.

Boston's strength is down the middle and weakness is on the wings, he's playing with Ryder and Recchi and he is still producing with less minutes than any of the Oilers rookies.

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#59 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 10:48PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

So you are going with the conspiricy theory.

MC = Memorial Cup.

No, I said "I beleive" which means it's my opinion, not a C.T.

I beleive the Oilers could of had the 32nd or MAYBEE! the 15th pick and a conditional 1st round pick if Boston was to win the cup in Hall's 1st three years similar to the Pronger trade.

Chiarelli said " were not willing to give this,this,this and this to get the guy they wanted, thats 4 things, considering all the assets Boston has accumilated I think my package would of done the trick.

If you watched the first Oil change. you here MBS said when debating Gudbranson/Fowler, "we don't have that type of D-man in the org", he threw out BPA for that argument.

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#60 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 10:58PM
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@Lowetide

I have a question for you and others. If Hall ends up being a perenial 90 point player on L.W & Seguin ends up being an 82 point Centre , did the Oilers make the right decision, considering they could of also got something else out of Boston and the teams strengths which is on the wings, not to mention if they don't finish in the lottery this year and miss out on the big C.

Kane rw had 88 points last year and Toews c has never had a 70 point season, but most people say they would take Toews.

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#61 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 10:59PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

It's just mind boggling to me that Crosby cant elevate his wingers. The only possible conclusion I can come up with is that you are 100% correct. It's pure myth.

Don't waste your time. Pot meet Kettle. Never mind.

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#62 speeds
October 31 2010, 11:04PM
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Lowetide wrote:

speeds: I was fascinated by the latest installment of Oil Change. I know, geek squared.

But I agree that they had the conversation and came down on the right side of the argument. In fact, getting Marincin came from having a qualified C to trade (Nash) in order to get the 46th overall selection.

I have to say the procurement dept has been impressive. Tambellini's showing in Oil Change was less inspiring. I wonder if Kevin Lowe did the edits. :-)

I was too, it was really interesting - could have been a lot more so without the blurred computer screens!

Some things of note I haven't seen talked about all that much around the blogs:

(1) The "top 7" that Stu MacGregor talked about being worth trading in for. These may not be in the order they had them ranked, but given the way they started the list, it is certainly possible this was their top 7, in order:

Hall Seguin Johansen Gudbranson Fowler McIlrath Campbell

Stu also said "If Skinner's there, you have to give him consideration. He's just too much of a scorer." We can probably infer that this means they may have had Skinner eigth, but that's a guess.

Now, I kinda don't like that list, so that brings to my mind a concern I wrote about years ago - that you can't really tell if a scouting staff is good simply by looking at their results, you need to see their list.

EG.

Team A's picks 7th, their top 10 list sees the following results 10 years later

BUST BUST BUST HOME RUN BUST BUST BUST BUST BUST BUST

they end up getting the guy 4th on their list.

Team B picks 8th, their top 10 list is wildly different from team A, and sees the following results 10 years later:

HOME RUN HOME RUN HOME RUN HOME RUN HOME RUN BUST HOME RUN HOME RUN HOME RUN HOME RUN

they end up getting the guy 6th on their list

(2) The name bars scattered about the bed in the hotel room. At least a few of the following will probably be struggling 3 years from now, they might not be bad names to remember in terms of future trades if EDM's current management is still in place at that time:

Watson Tinordi Marincin Pitlick Forbort

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#63 Crash
October 31 2010, 11:06PM
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I can't believe Oiler fans aren't on the Hall bandwagon yet, I can't believe Tyler Seguin is still talked about so much in here...he's a Boston Bruin...

It does amaze me how so many people can get caught up in one good season. This was a very dangerous proposition in my mind...the Oilers got it right, they went for the winner, they went for the guy who competes when the chips are down, they went for the guy who has shown consistency over and over again...

I don't get this 5 on 5 arguement, what is the basis for this makes Seguin a better player? Is it possible Seguin got to play more minutes than Hall 5 on 5 because he was on a weaker team? How is it that you can claim Seguin is a better player because he produced more ONE season 5 on 5. Did he maybe manage some points off of faceoffs wins? Just what is this broad statment about 5 on 5 and what does it prove? If he is the better player then why didn't he produce more on the PP too? And just how weak was this team (Plymouth) that finished 4th in the eastern conference? They couldn't have been that bad could they to finish that high? If I'm not mistaken Seguin wasn't the ONLY good player they had.

What is the basis for Seguin produced with lesser linemates? On one hand you guys say that makes him better because Hall had better linemates and then on the other hand you talk about how it doesn't really matter about linemates because Crosby didn't make his wingers better. So which is it and who are these great linemates that Hall had? Did any of them make the NHL this year? Are any of them tearing up the AHL right now? Uhhhh, no, they aren't.

Also for anyone that has played a lot of hockey in their lives, especially at higher levels you would likely know that centers stand a much better chance of producing points than wingers do, simply because for the most part they have more time with the puck than either winger and they also take faceoffs which can lead directly to points. If a winger is producing as much as a center is, chances are that winger is a better player than that center is. So the fact that Seguin couldn't outscore Hall while enjoying having the advantage of playing center is another reason to take Hall. Everyone also forgets that Hall played 6 less games than Seguin did this past year. I would hazard a guess that Hall just may have produced some points in those 6 games and won the scoring race outright, with relative ease.

Frankly I'm surprised it took the Oilers scouting staff so long to figure it out and that it took not only the 3 consecutive consistent seasons by Hall to convince them but that Hall had to produce yet another Mem Cup MVP before they finally went his way.

I can't believe we're still on this Seguin thing and that anytime he does anything we get updates on it. While we're at it, why don't we update when Jeff Skinner does anything? We could have taken him too or Alex Burmistrov.

Hey Oiler fans, rejoice, we have a great hockey player on our team and the guy is a proven winner. He also seems genuinely thrilled to be playing here....I hope he's here for a long time, but who knows, there will be some that will probably want to run him out of town in the next 3 yrs, similar to what it seems is starting to happen to Gagner.

Heck I think there are already some that want to run him out of town.

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#64 commonfan13
October 31 2010, 11:08PM
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Do we have any evidence at all to support this notion that Boston was going to give us something to pass on Hall?

What was it exactly?

I don't think they were prepared to give us anything, and certainly nothing that would be enough to convince us to pass on the guy we thought was best.

Also, Crosby really should be able to make his wingers better like Gretzky did if he is that kind of generational talent. The fact that he hasn't been able to is becoming a bigger and bigger issue for the Pens, and it's a big part of how the Habs were able to beat them last spring. It's puzzling why he hasn't been able to make it happen in a big way yet.

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#65 speeds
October 31 2010, 11:08PM
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Sorry all, there were supposed to be vertical lists, but they went horizontal, not sure how to format such a list - hitting enter doesn't seem to work.

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#66 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:09PM
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Ryan14 wrote:

Crosby also played against top level talent his entire career.

Seguin is at a 6% discrepancy between home and away percentages. That is petty significant.

I would say our 21 year old face off man is doing pretty damn good considering he is playing against some of the best opposition. Our 23 year old should be traded for a multitude of reasons and our 30 year old is average.

It's been 9 games into seguins NHL career and your acting as if his career has been written in stone. Wait until he is no longer a third liner before you start comparing him to Crosby

I like how you make it look like I said he would be as good as Crosby when I was only talking about faceoffs, and yes 54% to 48% for an 18 YEAR OLD is a petty discrepancy.

Barring injury or disaster it is written in stone that he will be an elite 1st line centre.

Imagine him between Paajarvi and Eberle in a few years, WOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!! He would be a 90-100 point player.

Start hunting for crow my friend.

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#67 Crash
October 31 2010, 11:09PM
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C-DOG wrote:

I have a question for you and others. If Hall ends up being a perenial 90 point player on L.W & Seguin ends up being an 82 point Centre , did the Oilers make the right decision, considering they could of also got something else out of Boston and the teams strengths which is on the wings, not to mention if they don't finish in the lottery this year and miss out on the big C.

Kane rw had 88 points last year and Toews c has never had a 70 point season, but most people say they would take Toews.

Do I fall under others? How the hell do you know what the Oilers could have gotten out of Boston if anything to pass on Hall and take Seguin.

Pure speculation on your part. Just because you think your package would have done the trick doesn't make it so.

And in answer to your other question. If Hall is a 90 point winger and Seguin is supposedly a better player, then Seguin better be better than a 90 point player or it will be clear that Hall was the correct pick.

I can't believe we're debating this again.

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#68 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:13PM
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commonfan13 wrote:

Do we have any evidence at all to support this notion that Boston was going to give us something to pass on Hall?

What was it exactly?

I don't think they were prepared to give us anything, and certainly nothing that would be enough to convince us to pass on the guy we thought was best.

Also, Crosby really should be able to make his wingers better like Gretzky did if he is that kind of generational talent. The fact that he hasn't been able to is becoming a bigger and bigger issue for the Pens, and it's a big part of how the Habs were able to beat them last spring. It's puzzling why he hasn't been able to make it happen in a big way yet.

Who became a Hall of Famer/ perenial allstar that played with Gretzky after he left Edmonton, that wasn't an allstar before he got there. Ahh....ahhh....ahhh, I'm waiting.

Chiarelli saying we wont give up 4 things probobly means they would of given at least 2 things but of course mngt was hard up for the sexy pick and we'll never find out.

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#69 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:18PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

It's just mind boggling to me that Crosby cant elevate his wingers. The only possible conclusion I can come up with is that you are 100% correct. It's pure myth.

I was kind of suprised too when I first started looking into it.

To take it to the extreme, Mark Recchi was struggling so badly with Crosby that he was waived after putting up 8 points in 19 games playing on Crosby's wing (for the most part anyways).

He then went on to rip it up on the lowly Thrashers scoring 40 points in 53 games.... a 75 point pace.

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#70 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:21PM
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Crash wrote:

Do I fall under others? How the hell do you know what the Oilers could have gotten out of Boston if anything to pass on Hall and take Seguin.

Pure speculation on your part. Just because you think your package would have done the trick doesn't make it so.

And in answer to your other question. If Hall is a 90 point winger and Seguin is supposedly a better player, then Seguin better be better than a 90 point player or it will be clear that Hall was the correct pick.

I can't believe we're debating this again.

Lets say you are right, and Boston was not going to give anything up, and it was obviously clear they needed a winger, then what does that say about their feelings about Seguin? Pretty big compliment.

I assume you would take Kane over Toews then.

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#71 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:24PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

I was kind of suprised too when I first started looking into it.

To take it to the extreme, Mark Recchi was struggling so badly with Crosby that he was waived after putting up 8 points in 19 games playing on Crosby's wing (for the most part anyways).

He then went on to rip it up on the lowly Thrashers scoring 40 points in 53 games.... a 75 point pace.

Putting up points on a bad team, I think we have discussed this before.

Part of the reason they turfed Recchi was his attitude/fued with coach Therien and the rebuild.

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#72 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:25PM
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commonfan13 wrote:

Do we have any evidence at all to support this notion that Boston was going to give us something to pass on Hall?

What was it exactly?

I don't think they were prepared to give us anything, and certainly nothing that would be enough to convince us to pass on the guy we thought was best.

Also, Crosby really should be able to make his wingers better like Gretzky did if he is that kind of generational talent. The fact that he hasn't been able to is becoming a bigger and bigger issue for the Pens, and it's a big part of how the Habs were able to beat them last spring. It's puzzling why he hasn't been able to make it happen in a big way yet.

Interestingly enough, Kurri actually produced at a better clip the year after Gretz then he did the Gretz last year here.

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#73 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:28PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Putting up points on a bad team, I think we have discussed this before.

Part of the reason they turfed Recchi was his attitude/fued with coach Therien and the rebuild.

Blah blah blah.

He also scored 16 points in 18 games after the Bruins aquired him at the deadling... you know, the year they won the east.... shoots a hole in your little, unsuported theory.

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#74 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:31PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Interestingly enough, Kurri actually produced at a better clip the year after Gretz then he did the Gretz last year here.

Gretzky missed 20 games with a knee injury in his final year with the Oilers, and please no one compare Gretzky to anyone other than Mario.

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#75 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:37PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Blah blah blah.

He also scored 16 points in 18 games after the Bruins aquired him at the deadling... you know, the year they won the east.... shoots a hole in your little, unsuported theory.

I like your small segments, there cute! Just if we had amnesia and only remembered Gagne's last 30 games in his rookie year 29 points. We would all go to bed and forget this 1st line centre issue.

Expecting an 18 year old Crosby to make an old player, who's fueding with his coach better is ridiculious.

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#76 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:38PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Gretzky missed 20 games with a knee injury in his final year with the Oilers, and please no one compare Gretzky to anyone other than Mario.

Fine then.

Kurri scored at a 1.36 pace Gretz 2nd last year when he played 79 games

Kurri scored at 1.34 pace the after Gretz was traded.

I'm not comparing Gretzky to anyone, I'm saying it's not clear cut that every guy that rode shot-gun with him seen their #'s artificially inflated.

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#77 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:41PM
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C-DOG wrote:

I like your small segments, there cute! Just if we had amnesia and only remembered Gagne's last 30 games in his rookie year 29 points. We would all go to bed and forget this 1st line centre issue.

Expecting an 18 year old Crosby to make an old player, who's fueding with his coach better is ridiculious.

Don't worry Shadi, theirs more examples then just Recchi.

Guerin produced at a 50 point clip with the worst team in the league

He was then traded to the Pens and produced at a 55 point clip.

Guerin's last full season with the NYI he scored 44 points

His full season with the Pens he scored 45 points

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#78 Matt Henderson
October 31 2010, 11:44PM
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@Crash

Whoa Crash. I want Hall to be the best player in the draft. Let's address a few things here, calmly.

It's not like Seguin is crapping the bed in the NHL. He's producing very well on limited time so far.

I believe that it is harder to score 5 on 5 than on the PP. You might think that it's tougher on the PP, I dont. So when someone produces almost 2X as much as someone else at even strength, I give that guy the nod. That said, every team needs guys that capitalizes on the PP.

We dont talk about Skinner because there was no chance the Oil were going to take him. Seguin was a VERY real possibility.

You're right. On one hand I say that Crosby didnt elevate his wingers, on the other I say that Hall played with better linemates. What I didnt say was that linemates dont matter. Hall's linemates didnt "elevate" his game. He still needed finish and talent to score as he did, but he didnt have to do it all by himself. Seguin didnt have Ellis, Henrique, Nemisz, Kassian, and Fowler to help out.

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#79 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:45PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Blah blah blah.

He also scored 16 points in 18 games after the Bruins aquired him at the deadling... you know, the year they won the east.... shoots a hole in your little, unsuported theory.

Yes, of course I remember Boston the team with depth up the middle and D, the team that beat Buffalo a regular season division champ last year that was weaker at centre and defeated Montreal the year before that had the same problem, and the team that lost to Phili last year because even they didn't have Phili's depth at centre and defence, you make it way to easy.

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#80 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:50PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Don't worry Shadi, theirs more examples then just Recchi.

Guerin produced at a 50 point clip with the worst team in the league

He was then traded to the Pens and produced at a 55 point clip.

Guerin's last full season with the NYI he scored 44 points

His full season with the Pens he scored 45 points

Guerin and Recchi at least have a track record little Sammy doesn't, they have been allstars. I will admit my shot at Recchi wasn't so much at him but the Oilers players.

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#81 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:51PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Yes, of course I remember Boston the team with depth up the middle and D, the team that beat Buffalo a regular season division champ last year that was weaker at centre and defeated Montreal the year before that had the same problem, and the team that lost to Phili last year because even they didn't have Phili's depth at centre and defence, you make it way to easy.

Haha, what are you talking about man? Why can't you focus on one topic at a time?

I'm talking about how Crosby hasn't elevated the production of his linemates and you're going off in 10 different directions.

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#82 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:52PM
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C-DOG wrote:

Guerin and Recchi at least have a track record little Sammy doesn't, they have been allstars. I will admit my shot at Recchi wasn't so much at him but the Oilers players.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? How you've some how twisted this into your little anti-Gagner fetish is beyond me.

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#83 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:54PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Fine then.

Kurri scored at a 1.36 pace Gretz 2nd last year when he played 79 games

Kurri scored at 1.34 pace the after Gretz was traded.

I'm not comparing Gretzky to anyone, I'm saying it's not clear cut that every guy that rode shot-gun with him seen their #'s artificially inflated.

I'm sure you would admit Kurri was a much better player because of Gretzky and developed to the point were he didn't have to rely on him as much later on in his career. If Kurri never plays with Gretzky he's probobly a 450-500 goal scorer instead of 600.

Just like Pippen and Jordan.

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#84 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 31 2010, 11:58PM
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C-DOG wrote:

I'm sure you would admit Kurri was a much better player because of Gretzky and developed to the point were he didn't have to rely on him as much later on in his career. If Kurri never plays with Gretzky he's probobly a 450-500 goal scorer instead of 600.

Just like Pippen and Jordan.

Ya maybe. Impossible to say though.

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#85 C-DOG
October 31 2010, 11:58PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Again, what on earth are you talking about? How you've some how twisted this into your little anti-Gagner fetish is beyond me.

When I said players putting up #'s on bad teams. I should of never said that about Recchi he has always been a producer good or bad teams, I should of just stuck to saying don't put it on Crosby at 18 for Recchi being put on waivers. His issues were with the coach.

Guerin was also a great player. good or bad teams.

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#86 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
November 01 2010, 12:00AM
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C-DOG wrote:

When I said players putting up #'s on bad teams. I should of never said that about Recchi he has always been a producer good or bad teams, I should of just stuck to saying don't put it on Crosby at 18 for Recchi being put on waivers. His issues were with the coach.

Guerin was also a great player. good or bad teams.

I'm not saying he was put on waivers because of Crosby, I said his production was as good or better away from Crosby.

Lending proof that for the most part, guys numbers aren't pumped up playing with him.

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#87 C-DOG
November 01 2010, 12:01AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Ya maybe. Impossible to say though.

That is as close as we'll ever come to agreeing on something. You know it snowed 20 inches today and it was -30.

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#88 C-DOG
November 01 2010, 12:09AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

I'm not saying he was put on waivers because of Crosby, I said his production was as good or better away from Crosby.

Lending proof that for the most part, guys numbers aren't pumped up playing with him.

I beleive A great player can make an avg player become above avg, good become very good and very good become great, but no one can make an avg player great unless there is some crazy chemistry going on between 2 specific players.

I think Crosby helps you win because of his all around game and not by making players around him significantly better.

You get the odd Rob Brown's of the world who score 49 goals in 68 games and never come close again.

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#89 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
November 01 2010, 12:27AM
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Also, Crosby was 20 when Recchi was waived.

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#90 C-DOG
November 01 2010, 12:53AM
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Lowetide wrote:

Shadi:

http://lowetide.blogspot.com/2010/05/i-have-seen-future-of-edmonton-oilers.html

Thanks, but I have to admit I'm a little surprised you first wanted Seguin and a little dissapointed that you changed your mind because of a play or a series.

I have to tell you I sat in front of Kelly McCrimmon and he would turn his head everytime he saw those Hall Mem cup highlights. McCrimmon is very good friend with Mike Babcock and later Mike put him in his Luxery suite, but before he went Babcock came and said hello to him , so I asked McCrimmon if he knew who Detroit would pick since they were in between Windsor & Plymouth, he said Seguin, later Scotty Bowman walked up the stairs and I stopped him, he talked to me for about 5 minutes and was very open and he told me that his people in Chicago told him that long term they beleived Seguin would be better.

I am not making this up when McCrimmon comes to town with Branden you can ask him off the record.

Colin cambell said he was a Hall guy but was leaning towards Seguin. He was also a great guy to talk to , can't say the same thing about Bettman, he was a total jerk.

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#91 C-DOG
November 01 2010, 01:03AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Also, Crosby was 20 when Recchi was waived.

In 05-06 Recchi had 57 points in 63 games, then he finished the season 7 points in 20 games with Carolina, and 68 points the next year back with Pittsburgh, so he has been better with Crosby post lockout. You can't hold an 18 game segment against Crosby, it was his fallout with Therien that caused him to get waived. Either way he's had a very good career regardless were he has been.

I'm going to sleep good night.

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#92 raventalon40
November 01 2010, 02:29AM
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Imagine the hilarity of drafting Dubyk and having him split time with Dubnyk

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#95 C-DOG
November 01 2010, 08:29AM
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Lowetide wrote:

I'm a fan. I've got my slide rule and am older than most so have seen some things, but the bottom line is that as a fan I can be swayed by those things. Probably the reason I'm not in management. :-)

I'm fine with Hall over Seguin, would have been fine the other way. You have to let it go, though. You can't change history.

You are right, I need to let it go, my problem is as I get older, I approach it less as a fan, and more as a wannabe G.M. Do you know a psychiatrist.

There is one positive in all of this I no longer get stressed out after a loss, because expectations have come down.

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#96 Crash
November 01 2010, 08:43AM
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@Matt Henderson

I'm not saying Seguin is going to be a bad player and kudos to him for a decent start to his career as well.

IMO, scoring 5 on 5 is more of a crapshoot.... and one year Seguin could have better numbers 5 on 5, the next year it could be Hall or someone else...there are many different things that factor into 5 on 5 scoring and we weren't privy to any of them. Such as, did Hall get less 5 on 5 time due to his team being deeper and being able to avoid cutting down their bench? Did Boughner call off the dogs when Windsor started blowing teams out and give more ice time to the 3rd/4th lines? Did the Plymouth coach keep putting out Seguin to pile up points against weaker opposition? What I'm saying is I don't think you can just simply look at one seasons worth of 5 on 5 and just paint the overall stat with a brush like it's an indication of how things will be year after year. Such as, at the moment Hall is outscoring Seguin 5 on 5. What does this mean? Well basically it really means nothing which is the point I was trying to make about 5 on 5 scoring.

Sometimes having a deeper team is going to mean less ice time, so having Ellis, Henrique, Nemisz, Kassian and Fowler to help out could result in being used less as well. Going back to Crosby's linemates, they also had a deeper team to work with, with players such as Malkin, Staal, Goligoski, Letang, Gonchar, etc. but yet their numbers were still down. For example I have Niklas Kronwall in a hockey draft and he plays on Detroit, including PP time. He averages over 24 min a game including over 3 min a game on the PP. But what does he have? He has a miniscule 2 pts. Both goals, both on the PP. You would think playing with all that talent, 24 min a night, including PP that he'd have more points.

Ultimately it comes down to the player himself, whether it's 5 on 5, PP, or PK. Do I think Seguin is going to be fine player? Yes I do, especially regular season when the going isn't as tough. Do I think Hall will be better? Yes I do, especially when the going gets tougher.

To me, when Seguin and Hall went head to head in that playoff series and Seguin was completely shutdown and also had poor defensive numbers it set off all kinds of alarm bells to me. Yes Windsor was a better team, but even so, when the chips were down Plymouth's best player needed to show at least something. He needed to show up at least a little bit. He needed to lead, and didn't.

Seguin disappeared in that playoff series, not just a little bit, but he completely disappeared. Was this not a worry for anyone? Is this player possibly a great regular season guy but not so much during the bigger games? If people are going to go all ga ga over one good regular season, shouldn't they also look at the one playoff series?

I'm so glad the Oilers took Hall. But had they taken Seguin, I'd be in his corner and this is what I don't understand about some so called Oiler fans. Not so much you as I can clearly see you are true blue Oiler, but there are others that just won't let it go, and they go on and on and on and on about Seguin.

They may as well become Bruin fans.

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#97 Ducey
November 01 2010, 09:21AM
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@C-DOG

You are right, I need to let it go, my problem is as I get older, I approach it less as a fan, and more as a wannabe G.M. Do you know a psychiatrist.

Well, ~seeing you are so well connected, instead of talking to Scotty Bowman, et al., maybe you should speak to Doug MacLean, Mike Milbury or John Ferguson, Jr.~ Being a GM is a lot harder in real life than it is at home.

I was a Seguin guy too. But that was based on stats, postion, and the fact that the Oilers could have maybe got something for Hall from Boston. However, I would never criticize the Oilers for taking Hall. I never saw Seguin play, I don't know what Boston offered, if anything, and was not in on the interviews etc. I have no idea whether I, if I were the GM, would have made the same decision.

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#98 madjam
November 01 2010, 10:54AM
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Hall was also Boston's first choice, not just ours - otherwise talks would not have lasted . Seguin pops into a loaded club , while Hall ends up on a gutted and rebuilding club. Hall doing well , and would be doing much better if we had let Boston get him . Would Seguin be doing as well on an Oiler squad - i doubt it !! Oilers choose the right guy , just not the good caste to support him as yet, like Seguin has been blessed with to start .

Would you trade Hall for Malkin straight up ? Not as easy as it sounds at first . Hall has those intangibles that make winners down the line .

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#99 NsxZero
November 01 2010, 10:56AM
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JDD on waivers as reported by the Edmonton Sun.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/sports/myoilers/2010/11/01/15906476.html

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#100 cableguy - 2nd Tier Fan
November 01 2010, 11:00AM
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C-DOG wrote:

I like your small segments, there cute! Just if we had amnesia and only remembered Gagne's last 30 games in his rookie year 29 points. We would all go to bed and forget this 1st line centre issue.

Expecting an 18 year old Crosby to make an old player, who's fueding with his coach better is ridiculious.

~why would we gives 2 sh*ts about Simon Gagne's final 30 games of his rookie year?~

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