ROSTER REVIEW

Jason Gregor
April 18 2010 10:03PM

A week has passed since the Oilers finished their worst season ever. I know statistically they had more points than the 1993 team, but there was no shootouts then, so let’s not argue semantics. This season sucked worse than any other, plain and simple.

So let’s now look ahead to next season. If I had asked these questions last week I think most of you would have said something to the effect of "unload all of these mother *&(&(*)@ piece of &*)*(@ players and take the management with them"

While that might have been valid, we know it isn’t realistic. In the short term the Oilers need to look at the next steps of what amounts to a complete overhaul of the team.

The Summer of Steve officially began last Wednesday when Tambellini said he wouldn’t put up with whiny, selfish, non-courageous and anti-Edmonton players. It’s one thing to say it, now we need to see him implement this new found outlook. I don’t expect him to call me this summer to ask for my advice, but I’m sure the OilersNation is saved on his browser so here’s what I think the Oilers will do this off-season.

(Note: Steve feel free to call or text me if I’m way off-base, you have my number.)

Many of you would love to buy out 19 players, four coaches, eight scouts and all the managers; hell someone even emailed me stating it’s time Paul Lorieau gets the boot, but we know Tambellini can’t gut the entire team in one five-month span. Here’s what the Oilers will do, okay should do, this summer.

GOALTENDING

 

Many think Nikolai Khabibulin was a brutal signing last summer, and coupled with his back surgery and drunk driving charge, it looks even worse, but buying him out would cripple the team even more, so the only option is to stick with him for the time being.

The real question here is who do you keep as the back up, Jeff Deslauriers or Devan Dubnyk?

Neither has proven they can be a consistent NHL goalie, but both have shown they can win a game by themselves. Deslauriers is more athletic, Dubnyk is more technical and that’s why I’d go with Dubnyk. He’s a bit younger and Deslauriers will probably fetch you more in a trade. Not a lot more, but maybe a 4th or 5th rounder instead of just losing him to the waiver wire in October.

Tambellini could wait and hope that every team will have two goalies they like coming out of training camp and Deslauriers might slide through waivers, but I don’t see that happening. Tambellini’s best option is to move him during the summer and get a mid to late round pick in return.

OUT OF THE GATE: Khabibulin and Dubnyk

DEFENCE

Tom Gilbert, Ryan Whitney and Ladislav Smid are obvious keepers at this point, but after that it gets difficult to think you will return. Taylor Chorney needs to get stronger and another half-season in the AHL won’t hurt him. Theo Peckham is close, but if he is here he is a number six at best. Tambellini will try to get a number four D-man in return for Sheldon Souray and if he gets one that doesn’t come with a $4 million cap hit, he’ll be happy.

The tough decision will be deciding on who they keep between Jason Strudwick and Aaron Johnson. If it was just an on ice decision they’d go with Johnson, but Strudwick is much respected and in tune with the younger players, and they need a veteran like that for at least one more year. Ideally Strudwick would only play around 40 games, but his value will come more in the dressing room than on the ice. Anyone who doesn’t think that element (professionalism) is necessary for this team moving forward hasn’t been paying attention.

OUT OF THE GATE: I see Smid, Whitney, Gilbert, Strudwick and Peckham returning for sure along with a stay-at-home defenceman from the Souray deal. Then Tambellini will try to bring in a number five and if he can’t they might have to settle for Johnson for one year.

CENTRE

Shawn Horcoff and Sam Gagner are locks to return, but they other positions will be debated heavily. If management chooses Tyler Seguin (which I think they will) he rounds out the top three and that leaves Marc Pouliot and Ryan Potulny to battle for the 4th line spot. Or does it? The Oilers could use a 4th line centre with some intensity, but I still think still need one of Potulny or Pouliot, just not both.

Even if they draft Taylor Hall, they still shouldn’t keep both. They need more of an identity in their bottom six, and having Potulny and Pouliot doesn’t solve that. Potulny had a great start, and no one saw him scoring 15 goals, but his play dipped drastically in the final 30 games and I don’t see him matching those goal totals, because he won’t get close to the same amount of PP time. The Oilers can’t keep both moving forward, because they are essentially the same player. Pouliot skates better, Potulny finishes better, but neither is overly physical, but Pouliot has learned to at least use his size to rub the odd guy off the puck.

Tambellini chose Pouliot over Brodziak last year, but he can’t make the same mistake this season. I’d keep Potulny and move Pouliot at the draft.

OUT OF THE GATE: Horcoff, Gagner, Seguin, Potulny and veteran UFA signing.

WINGERS

 

Trading Ales Hemsky for the 2nd pick is a pipe dream for Oiler fans, and while I’m not convinced Hemsky will be here long-term, he’ll be here next September. Dustin Penner is a no-brainer to return and Gilbert Brule is the other winger I’d keep on a supposed scoring line. After those three it gets really interesting.

If the Oilers surprise me (not that it would be bad to select Hall, I just don’t think they will at this point) and take Hall then the decision is easy. But since I don’t think he’ll be here, they still need another scorer and the options look to be one of Jordan Eberle, MPS, Andrew Cogliano, Linus Omark, Robert Nilsson, Jaromir Jagr or other.

You’ll notice I didn’t even mention Patrick O’Sullivan, because I don’t see any way he returns to Edmonton. They will either trade him or buy him out. They’d keep Nilsson over him at this point. It might cause uproar in the Oil-blogosphere, but Eberle is not a lock to make this team coming out of camp. If he earns it they will find a spot for him, but if he is just average in the preseason, they won’t hesitate to give him 40 games in the AHL to hone is game.

There is no way the Oilers want to rush any of their top offensive prospects next season, despite the barrage of hate mail they will receive from over-zealous fans wearing Eberle jerseys next season. MPS and Omark are the most difficult to gauge at this point. Many feel both are ready to play next year, but there is only room for one of them to start the season. Omark has committed to playing in North America next season, while as of today there is no guarantee MPS will choose the AHL over the SEL.

I threw in Jagr because I’m still not 100% sold that this team will go completely with youth, and the allure of Jagr teaching showing their young offensive guys some tricks-of-the-trade might be too much for Tambellini and company to resist. My head tells me no, but like that annoying buddy who buys you two shots at last call, sometimes guys make impulsive decisions that seem good at the time but ultimately don’t pan out. I think Jagr coming here is about a 30/70 chance. Prove me wrong Steve. Nilsson just doesn’t fit in moving forward, and while buy outs aren't the best option all the time, in this case it probably makes sense.

I don’t see Andrew Cogliano playing here next season. No one has told me this flat out, but when Pat Quinn was talking about players worrying about who they play with, Cogliano’s name popped into my head. Cogliano could easily become a 20-25 goal scorer with another organization, and that’s why he has value on the trade market, but they have too many small, soft, supposedly-skilled forwards and someone has to go. Cogliano will be that guy, and I think they’ll address their lack of size by sending Cogliano packing.

GRIT, ATTITUDE, GRIT and NASTINESS

The Oilers biggest void is an identity in their bottom six forwards. For the past four years they haven’t had enough guys willing to be puck-hounds every shift, and that’s exactly what they need. Until the young talent, becomes proven scoring talent the Oilers need their bottom four wingers to make life difficult for the opposition. The problem is these types of wingers are a rarity so realistically Tambellini might only be able to nab one this summer.

Zach Stortini is limited in his game, but his game has slowly improved over the years, he’ll continue that over the summer. If he could gain even a quarter step of foot speed he’d be able to finish more hits and make life harder on opposing D-men. He knows his role and is under contract for another year.

J.F Jacques led the Oilers in hits, 158, despite playing only 49 games. His back is a question mark, but he proved this season that he finally understands the need to be physical every game. He skates well for a big-man, and if he can stay healthy he could morph into a 3rd liner. Of course that is a big if, and that’s why they will need another forward who can fill in for Jacques when he misses the odd game. Tambellini has to find some depth amongst his physical wingers.

The Oilers had a measly three players with 100+ hits, which is why they rarely had the puck in the offensive zone for any extended period of time. Once they lost it, they didn’t have the ability to get it back via a check.

Many, including Ethan Moreau, thought the captain would be gone at the trade deadline, but that didn’t happen and his strong finish could see him start the year in Edmonton . Moreau was humbled at the deadline when no one was willing to trade for him, and he seemed to find the game that made him effective for the previous ten seasons in Edmonton . Moreau can only be effective playing one way; Tenacious. If he doesn’t play with emotion then he looks like he did for the first 60 games this year; Horrendous.

Three months ago I would have said there was no way he’d be here in September, but now I think you’ll see him start the season in Edmonton .

Ryan Jones and Ryan Stone will battle for one of the two extra forward spots. There isn’t room for both and they are essentially the same type of player. Both will come to camp, but only one will survive. The wild card in this equation is Mike Comrie.

Comrie wants to play here next year, and only Dustin Penner averaged more goals per game than Comrie last year. His competitive fire is what would make him valuable next season. This roster will have at least three and maybe four small, skilled forwards who could learn a lot from how Comrie plays. He goes to the tough areas to score goals, he doesn’t shy away and he stands up for himself. His biggest asset might be that he has proven he can produce with limited minutes.

He doesn’t need to play 18 minutes a night to score 20 goals. His presence would also push the young guys to produce; otherwise he might take their spot for a game here or there. His versatility, experience and reasonable salary should have him back in Oiler silks next season.

The debate will also rage on during the summer about Potulny and Pouliot. If I am making the call I would take the guy who blew through every single expectation he had going into the season registering15 goals and 17 assists for 32 in 64 games over a guy who has had four years to prove he wants to stay on this roster and has done little in this regard. 

But that's just me.

OUT OF THE GATE: Hemsky, Penner, Brule, Stortini, Moreau, Jacques, Eberle, Stone, Comrie and off-season UFA signing.

NET SUM GAME

If you are skipping to the end of this murder mystery novel all this means Sheldon Souray, Robert Nilsson, Patrick O’Sullivan, Fernando Pisani, Aaron Johnson and Andrew Cogliano won’t be back.

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One of Canada's most versatile sports personalities. Jason hosts The Jason Gregor Show, weekdays from 2 to 6 p.m., on TSN 1260, and he writes a column every Monday in the Edmonton Journal. You can follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/JasonGregor
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#101 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 01:45PM
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@rubbertrout

And then 2/3rd of the GMs would have to find an elite Centre to play with Ovie before their teams won anything

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#102 dragon
April 19 2010, 01:46PM
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Hemmertime wrote:

I want Jagr because Hemsky wants Jagr, and I want a happy Hemsky. That and Jagr has the right mentality, he said he would be one of the best third liners in the NHL if he couldn't play first line minutes or produce as well.

All he has to do is move his fat arse to the correct place on the power play and be able to one time the puck better than Horcoff (and being honest, a 50 year old Jagr probably could) and he will produce.

weeeeeell, unfortunately this will only happen if Quinn gets the boot (quite unlikely).

I got the feeling from his presser that he looks for players able to make themselves happy, as opposed to those 'stars' looking to their line mates for happiness.

;-)

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#103 Mouse
April 19 2010, 01:50PM
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@Team Hall

Dorothy Mantooth is a Saint!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#104 rubbertrout
April 19 2010, 01:51PM
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@Matt Henderson

Washington appears to be doing OK at the moment(goaltending notwithstanding). Most teams take a bit of time even with superstars before they gel and win something (Mario's Penguins, the 80's Oilers). Crosby did it quick but having drafts that got the team Staal, Malkin and Fleury helped.

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#105 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 01:51PM
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quicksilver ballet wrote:

Any support for bringing in Carey Price?

If there was ever a time he may be available this could be it. The Habs have settled into Halak now that Gainey isn't there to defend Price. Carey could settle in at around 2.5 per, so having him and Habby, till he calls it quits may be tollerable.

....anyone else like this idea?

Yup, the Habs are ripe for the picking for a potential franchise goalie. Trading for one of them is a no brainer IMO.

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#106 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 01:53PM
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rubbertrout wrote:

Washington appears to be doing OK at the moment(goaltending notwithstanding). Most teams take a bit of time even with superstars before they gel and win something (Mario's Penguins, the 80's Oilers). Crosby did it quick but having drafts that got the team Staal, Malkin and Fleury helped.

And Backstrom's 4 playoff goals and 101 reg. season points didnt contribute?

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#107 Bucknuck
April 19 2010, 01:56PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

Take your reasonable thoughts elsewhere, Sir. They are not welcome here ;)

Arch you make me laugh - thanks for that. It seems that the "Oilers bus" is a very fearsome and panic filled place these days.

I don't get it.

This is going to be a very exciting summer. First overall pick at the draft; oh my! And for once I can put money on the fact that next will be better than this year. I have no doubt that it can't get worse, so I am feeling pretty happy just sitting back and enjoying the ride. I don't understand the angst so much.

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#108 Bucknuck
April 19 2010, 01:57PM
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Re: Washington and Backstrom. I would call FOURTH in the NHL scoring race "elite".

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#109 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 01:57PM
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@Bucknuck

Im gonna be over the moon on Draft day, and when certain players are bought out or traded I'll be happy too. Positive summer, i hope.

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#110 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 01:59PM
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@Bucknuck

That's what I've been sayin. Washington didnt pull it together until Ovechkin found a Centre.

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#111 Ender
April 19 2010, 02:00PM
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OK, this is pretty corny, but I admit it made me smile.

An 'illustrated' history of hockey in California.

hxxp://www.battleofcali.com/2010/4/13/1417600/cartoon-explosion-the-boc-quest

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#112 Mouse
April 19 2010, 02:02PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

And Backstrom's 4 playoff goals and 101 reg. season points didnt contribute?

Not to mention Semin and Green. Again reinforcing the centers elevating others play. Remember, Crosby played with Dupuis for the cup run and Malkin played with Fedetenko, Staal with Talbot and Kennedy.

I am still undecided. Was on the Seguin bandwagon, but more recently shifting to Hall. Real hard to pass up on a guylike Hall.

Guy on the radio (think it was Gregor's show) mentioned he liked Seguin better because he didn't rely on strength like Hall does to dominate at Junior. That won't fly against NHL players like it does in Junior. I like that argument for Seguin.

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#114 BBOil
April 19 2010, 02:09PM
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@Bucknuck

Agreed. Exciting summer indeed. The beautiful thing is that really, we only have 13 guys under contract for next year. Lots of RFA's and prospects to make decisions on, and of those 13 guys under contract I'm sure at least half of those guys are going to be trade bait if possible. All that potential turnover is a good thing for a thirtieth place team.

As per the Price talk. Yes, Yes, Yes!!! And I think the pieces are there to get it done.

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#115 Asciutto
April 19 2010, 02:10PM
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"Many think Nikolai Khabibulin was a brutal signing last summer, and coupled with his back surgery and drunk driving charge, it looks even worse, but buying him out would cripple the team even more, so the only option is to stick with him for the time being."

Khabibulin was a brutal signing last summer because you can't buy him out. Or, rather, you can buy him out but his Cap hit remains.

Also, Khabibulin was a brutal signing last summer because unlike Moreau, O'Sullivan or Nillson, Khabibulin's Cap hit remains even if you sent him to Oklahoma.

Khabibulin was a brutal signing last summer.

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#116 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 02:10PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

That's what I've been sayin. Washington didnt pull it together until Ovechkin found a Centre.

I wouldn't draw to straight of a line between an elite center arriving in Washington and them pulling it all together. Other pieces were falling into place as well.

Also, the Pens struggled the first year with Crosby (and to a lesser extent the first year with Crosby and Malkin... so 2 elite centers). So I don't think it's so simply as winger vs center. Rather it's their young superstars maturing AND the addition/solidifying the support cast (including some elite players in that supporting cast)

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#118 BUCK75
April 19 2010, 02:14PM
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What do all of you Taylor Hall guys think of his performance against Kitchener? Windsor is down 3-0 & Hall has 1G 2 A.....

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#119 Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach
April 19 2010, 02:16PM
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BUCK75 wrote:

What do all of you Taylor Hall guys think of his performance against Kitchener? Windsor is down 3-0 & Hall has 1G 2 A.....

Well it might've only been 2-1 if it weren't for Windsor's goalie.

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#120 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 02:17PM
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BUCK75 wrote:

What do all of you Taylor Hall guys think of his performance against Kitchener? Windsor is down 3-0 & Hall has 1G 2 A.....

Better then Seguins performance against Windsor ;)

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#122 Tracie
April 19 2010, 02:18PM
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rubbertrout wrote:
Compare Ovechkin to Crosby. Ovie won the Calder, and is a more dynamic goal scorer, but who has been to two Cups? Flashier doesn't always mean better.

Going to two cups doesn't mean better either. It means he was on a better team. Given the choice between both of them I'd bet that over 2/3 of the managers in the league would take Ovie over Crosby.

Why would you think that? Just curious b/c I would take Crosby over Ovie...and I like Ovie alot, I just think that Crosby is a better all around player...

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#123 Twiggs
April 19 2010, 02:18PM
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@BUCK75

Well it obviously leaves much to be desired but Seguin didn't even make it there...

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#124 Crash
April 19 2010, 02:22PM
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BUCK75 wrote:

What do all of you Taylor Hall guys think of his performance against Kitchener? Windsor is down 3-0 & Hall has 1G 2 A.....

Kitchener is really on a role in the OHL playoffs and their goaltender is standing on his head....Windsor has outshot Kitchener 160 to 105 so far in the series...

Hall is amongst his teams leaders and is a minus 1 in the series. He hasn't been shutdown and he hasn't been terrible defensively...when you run into a hot goaltender sometimes you just have to tip your hat to him

You could say that Kitchener's goaltender has stolen this series so far. Or on the other end of the spectrum the Windsor goalie has really crapped the bed.

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#126 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 02:26PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

The fact you suggest Pouliot is a hard player means anything you say after carries no weight. Suggesting Pouliot is a hard player is akin to saying I have flowing locks. Not close.

Pouliot's body of work is pretty bad. He's as inconsistent as Nilsson, but this season was different. He only played 35 games but had 14 points. That's a significant increase in point production, and I didnt think that he disappeared as much. I think he was much more physical this season. 1 year contract as the possible 4th line centre wouldnt be that bad. He could be offloaded for a pick a la Brodziak to a playoff bound team looking for bottom 6 depth if it doesnt work out.

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#127 BUCK75
April 19 2010, 02:27PM
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@Twiggs

@Twiggs, Crash, & Team Ogden

Well I hope Windsor comes back - it would get really boring talking about the games of the 2 guys when neither one is in the play-offs anymore :P

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#128 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 02:33PM
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BUCK75 wrote:

@Twiggs, Crash, & Team Ogden

Well I hope Windsor comes back - it would get really boring talking about the games of the 2 guys when neither one is in the play-offs anymore :P

Also a good chance for Hall to really elivate his play in a pressure situation. These next couple of games could give some more good insight into his mental make-up.

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#129 Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach
April 19 2010, 02:35PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

Based on what???

Are you suggesting that Crosby wasn't the main part the Pens? Malkin is good and so is Fleury, but Crosby is their leader and best player.

And you base your 2/3 argument on what? Ovechkin scores more goals or that he wins more?

Crosby's game is better overall. Ovechkin is more dynamic, but Crosby is more effective and has shown the ability to do more to help his team win.

Well when the Pens won the cup the league thought Malkin was better so he got the Conn Smythe. So Crosby might not be the main guy at all times.

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#130 Crash
April 19 2010, 02:35PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:
Why would you bet that Hall will have a better first NHL season? That would be the reason for taking him. If he's better in his first season then why couldn't he be better in his 3rd season.

Because he is more physically mature at this point, but he won't always be physically more mature and Seguin will catch up.

Having a good rookie season doesn't mean a player will automatically be better for the rest of his career. Guys mature at different speeds, and Hall has one more year of junior under his belt and has filled out earlier.

You can't control the physical maturation process of the body, so Hall is ahead now, but that doesn't guarantee he will be ahead for every year afterwards.

Ok, maybe I'm not understanding this but how is it that Hall is more physically mature at this point....aren't they both listed as almost identical in height and weight? Around 6' 185lbs?

If that is true I'm not sure what it is about Hall that causes the belief that he is more physically mature than Seguin....

Could it be just that Hall plays a more physical game than Seguin?

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#131 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 02:37PM
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Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach wrote:

Well when the Pens won the cup the league thought Malkin was better so he got the Conn Smythe. So Crosby might not be the main guy at all times.

Also, I just glanced at it quick so I don't have the details. But the Pens record has been far better with Malkin in and Crosby out then it was with Crosby in and Malkin out.

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#132 Team Hall
April 19 2010, 02:43PM
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Bang on Crash. All we are saying is, lets pick the BPA. If Seguin is the bpa, pick him. If Hall is the bpa, pick him. But not, oh, we need a centre, so lets take seguin even though we are too lazy to decide which player is better. Or, CSS says that Seguin is #1 today, so lets just pick him. How about the Oilers scouts put some actual work in and do the research and get it right for all time.

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#133 Aleslav Smidsky
April 19 2010, 02:44PM
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Goaltending;

Khabibulin will be back, thats a given. Instead of Dubnyk I see Deslauriers being the back-up. Dubnyk is a little more humble of the two, and I don't see Deslauriers being cool in the minors.

The only way this doesn't happen is a trade with Canadiens. Deslauriers, Brule or Potulny and Jacques or a 3rd for Price and a 2nd. If this happens then Price and Khabibulin split the games 50/50.

Defence;

Whitney-Gilbert

Smid- and who ever Souray and a prospect or a pick gets them.

Pechkam-Johnson. I don't see why the Oilers wouldn't re-sign him, or take Strudwick over him.

Chorney as a 7th.

Forwards;

Contrary to popular belief this team will be built around Penner and Hemsky. Penner is a rare valuable LW and Hemsky is one of the best stickhadnlers and passers on the RW in the league.

Penner, Hall/Sequin, Hemsky.

A 2nd round will be traded along with Nillson or O'Sullivan to bring a LW to compliement Gagner and Cogliano.

Pisani, Horcoff, MPS

Stortini, Pouliot, Brule/Potulny.

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#134 OilFan
April 19 2010, 02:44PM
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quicksilver ballet wrote:

Any support for bringing in Carey Price?

If there was ever a time he may be available this could be it. The Habs have settled into Halak now that Gainey isn't there to defend Price. Carey could settle in at around 2.5 per, so having him and Habby, till he calls it quits may be tollerable.

....anyone else like this idea?

I agree,Price is a may better option for the future of the Oilers then JDD and DD

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#135 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 19 2010, 02:46PM
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Team Hall wrote:

Bang on Crash. All we are saying is, lets pick the BPA. If Seguin is the bpa, pick him. If Hall is the bpa, pick him. But not, oh, we need a centre, so lets take seguin even though we are too lazy to decide which player is better. Or, CSS says that Seguin is #1 today, so lets just pick him. How about the Oilers scouts put some actual work in and do the research and get it right for all time.

And all everyone else is saying is that they feel it's a coin flip between the two so if both players are ranked equally you might as well take the one that better fits your needs.

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#136 Bucknuck
April 19 2010, 02:46PM
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Crash wrote:

Ok, maybe I'm not understanding this but how is it that Hall is more physically mature at this point....aren't they both listed as almost identical in height and weight? Around 6' 185lbs?

If that is true I'm not sure what it is about Hall that causes the belief that he is more physically mature than Seguin....

Could it be just that Hall plays a more physical game than Seguin?

weight does not always equal strength. I have two kids who are almost identical in weight, but one is a year older. She is way stronger than her brother, and there isn't any fat no either of them.

Physical maturity is not always determined by weight class.

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#137 Chickenplucker
April 19 2010, 02:50PM
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Crash wrote:

Kitchener is really on a role in the OHL playoffs and their goaltender is standing on his head....Windsor has outshot Kitchener 160 to 105 so far in the series...

Hall is amongst his teams leaders and is a minus 1 in the series. He hasn't been shutdown and he hasn't been terrible defensively...when you run into a hot goaltender sometimes you just have to tip your hat to him

You could say that Kitchener's goaltender has stolen this series so far. Or on the other end of the spectrum the Windsor goalie has really crapped the bed.

But I thought superstars had to show up in big games ;)

Or at least this is an arguement often used by the lowly Hall contingent on the ON

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#138 rubbertrout
April 19 2010, 02:52PM
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Matt Henderson wrote:

And Backstrom's 4 playoff goals and 101 reg. season points didnt contribute?

Thus my comments "Washington [ie with Backstom, Semin, Green et al] appears to be doing OK at the moment".

All I said initially was that I thought that

a) Gregor's comment about "flashier doesn't mean better" wasn't on base. He implied that Crosby was "better" because he had been in two cup finals. I said all that it meant was that he had a better team.

b) IMO Ovechkin is a better player than Crosby. Once he was on a better team (ie like now with Backstrom, Semin et al coming into their own) then you can start to talk about the team successes.

I (shudder) actually think we are in agreement here. I'm not sure I understand what your comments are directed at. I think most would take Ovie over Crosby in a heartbeat. Once you surrounded Ovie with better players (or those players developed sufficiently) then you might be able to start comparing team successes.

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#139 cableguy - 2nd Tier Fan
April 19 2010, 02:52PM
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Bucknuck wrote:

weight does not always equal strength. I have two kids who are almost identical in weight, but one is a year older. She is way stronger than her brother, and there isn't any fat no either of them.

Physical maturity is not always determined by weight class.

1) is she of age?

2) is she hot?

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#140 Twiggs
April 19 2010, 02:55PM
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@BUCK75

I can't wait till they are both in the big show and then we can REALLY talk about their respective games and whether the Oil made the right selection or not!

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#141 rubbertrout
April 19 2010, 02:58PM
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@Jason Gregor

Based on the fact that he is a better overall offensive player? Based on the fact that he is more physical? Lots of things. It isn't just scoring goals. Ovie makes his teammates better too you know. Just because you say Crosby is better doesn't mean that is the gospel truth.

Smarter hockey people than you or I are divided on the subject. I'm not suggesting at all that Crosby isn't a main part of the Pens or that he isn't the Pens best player (although arguably Malkin was neck in neck for one of those campaigns.) Crosby has had a better team when the Pens made cup runs period. Sure he is part of the team but he isn't the whole team. I think this year Ovechkin has at least a comparable team to the cup final Pens(although goaltending is still a question). If he fails to advance to the finals this year maybe I'll be swayed by your argument but being the best player on a better team doesn't mean you are a better player in and of itself.

EDIT: Of course this argument is kind of like fighting over which supermodel to take home. Even if you lose you win.

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#142 OilFan
April 19 2010, 02:59PM
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I would take Crosby over Ovie if I was a GM. Proven leader, 51 goals,Cup ring, Gold Medal and he is Canadian. I think I would honestly take Towes over Ovie also. I think if you have the chance you take the center over the winger

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#143 Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach
April 19 2010, 03:00PM
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Twiggs wrote:

I can't wait till they are both in the big show and then we can REALLY talk about their respective games and whether the Oil made the right selection or not!

Well if it ends up like Ovechkin-Crosby, then half the people will be pissed about who we took and the other half will be happy.

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#144 Hemmertime
April 19 2010, 03:02PM
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@Jason Gregor

I'd take Ovechkin any day over Crosby. Swap them cities and put OV with Malkin and company and maybe he has a cup ring.

Crosby has elevated his game this year adding goal scoring, however when OV wants to take over a game, his hitting, shooting and endurance puts him in a class of his own

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#145 OilFan
April 19 2010, 03:03PM
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@rubbertrout

Ovie is a great player, Crosby is a better ALL ROUND player, he plays in all the most important minutes in the game. Ovie is more one dimensional only offensive and hits.

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#146 Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach
April 19 2010, 03:06PM
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OilFan wrote:

Ovie is a great player, Crosby is a better ALL ROUND player, he plays in all the most important minutes in the game. Ovie is more one dimensional only offensive and hits.

Since when to Crosby start playing the PK and shutdown role?

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#147 Crash
April 19 2010, 03:06PM
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Bucknuck wrote:

weight does not always equal strength. I have two kids who are almost identical in weight, but one is a year older. She is way stronger than her brother, and there isn't any fat no either of them.

Physical maturity is not always determined by weight class.

Hmmmm, ok then....I guess my feeling would be that if 2 mature guys just entering adulthood were almost exactly the same age, height and weight and that if one were stronger than the other it would be because he has made himself that way via hard work...I don't know??

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#148 rubbertrout
April 19 2010, 03:09PM
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@OilFan

Scoring and physical play sounds like at least two dimesnions to me. I recognize that there are two very valid arguments as to which player is better. Some go with Crosby some with Ovechkin.

The only reason I brought it up in the first place was Gregor's ridiculous comment that playing on a cup winning team (and a cup losing team) automatically makes Crosby "better" than Ovechkin.

I'll listen to arguments that deal with hockey skills (I may not agree with them) but ranking on the basis of cups alone isn't analysis. If Ovie can't advance deep into the playoffs with this team (or a similar one with maybe a better goalie) then you are comparing apples to apples but otherwise it isn't a fair comparison.

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#149 Chickenplucker
April 19 2010, 03:09PM
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@Crash

not sure if this is true but I've believe I heard that Hall is actually 200lbs now...anyone?

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#150 Matt Henderson
April 19 2010, 03:13PM
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Crash wrote:

Hmmmm, ok then....I guess my feeling would be that if 2 mature guys just entering adulthood were almost exactly the same age, height and weight and that if one were stronger than the other it would be because he has made himself that way via hard work...I don't know??

You're talking about 18 year olds, people mature at different speeds. At 18 I was 130 pounds, by the time I was 23 I was at 180. You never would have guessed based on my 18 year old self.

Also Seguin is listed at 172 pounds by Central Scouting while Hall is 185, though I have heard someone say he's at 200.

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