Taylor or Tyler? 66 more days...

Jason Gregor
April 20 2010 06:17PM

2010 Home Hardware CHL-NHL Top Prospects Game

The Taylor or Tyler debate will rage for another 66 days until the Oilers draft one of them, but it won’t stop there and it will surely intensify over the next ten seasons, especially if one of them becomes much more proficient.

I respect the guys or gals who have chosen Hall or Seguin, because I hate fence sitters. Pick why you like one and defend it to the death. I find it interesting how TEAM HALL has used Kyle Turris as an example of why you should stay away from Seguin. Like I said, when you are battling your point, you reach for any example that can help you. Good on you TEAM HALL, although the Turris/Seguin comparison is a major stretch in my opinion.

Due to the position and style of how Hall and Seguin play it was only natural to see this debate morph into the Crosby v. Ovechkin argument. I don’t think Hall or Seguin will be as dominant as Crosby or Ovechkin, but you can make the comparison based on their position and style of play. Seguin is more like Crosby, while Hall is more dynamic like Ovechkin.

I’ve said for years that Ovechkin is my favourite player to watch, but I don’t think he is better than Crosby. Which resulted in these types of responses:

Hemmertime: I'd take Ovechkin any day over Crosby. Swap them cities and put OV with Malkin and company and maybe he has a cup ring.

Crosby has elevated his game this year adding goal scoring, however when OV wants to take over a game, his hitting, shooting and endurance puts him in a class of his own.

RubberTrout: Based on the fact that he is a better overall offensive player? Based on the fact that he is more physical? Lots of things. It isn't just scoring goals. Ovie makes his teammates better too you know. Just because you say Crosby is better doesn't mean that is the gospel truth.

Gents what makes you think Ovechkin is a better overall offensive player?

Career numbers for Crosby in 371 games played he’s averaged 1.36 pts/game. Ovechkin in 396 games averages 1.33 pts/game.

Ovechkin is a better pure goal scorer and is more physical. He should be, considering he is three inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, but is offensive game doesn’t produce more points and unlike Crosby, Ovechkin’s game hasn’t improved the last few seasons?

This past summer after winning the Cup, Crosby said he needed to be a better goal scorer and improve his faceoffs. And what does he do this past season? He ends up leading the league in goals, and was 55.7% in the dot. He also took the most faceoffs in the entire league. He impacts the game more than Ovechkin.

The argument that Crosby has Malkin and that makes him better is weak. Crosby doesn't PLAY regularly with Malkin. Ovechkin plays with Backstrom and look at their point totals the past two seasons. Do you think that Malkin is that much better than Backstrom??

Malkin tallied 190 points to Backstrom’s 189. Not much difference.

You guys suggest that Crosby has a better supporting cast, but the only major difference has been in goal. Marc Andre Fleury is clearly better than Theodore or Varlamov, but compare the offensive depth of the Capitals and Penguins and it favours the Capitals.

Penguins 2010 Capitals 2010
Crosby 109 Ovechkin 109
Malkin 77 Backstrom 101
Gonchar 50 Semin 84
Staal 49 Green 76
Guerin 45 Laich 59
    Knuble 53
    Fleischmann 51
       
Penguins 2009   Capitals 2009  
Malkin 113 Ovechkin 110
Crosby 103 Backstrom 88
Staal 49 Semin 79
Sykora 46 Green 73
Fedotenko 39 Laich 53

Crosby doesn’t have close to the offensive supporting cast that Ovechkin has, yet you claim Crosby has the advantage playing in Pittsburgh. I’d love to know what makes you think Fleury helps him produce more points? Fleury has given Crosby a better chance of winning, but the goalie doesn’t impact his offensive points. If anything you can say that Crosby plays a bigger role in his team’s success than Ovechkin does in Washington.

Ovechkin scores more highlight reel goals, and I think that has influenced many people into thinking he is the best player in the game. Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer, but he is not a better offensive player than Crosby. Offence is a combination of goal scoring and play making and Crosby is better at this stage of the game.

Crosby hones his skills in the off-season and his all-around game is far superior to Ovechkin’s. Ovechkin has a magnetic personality and his style of play is very entertaining and that’s what makes him so likeable, and probably why fans love him. Like I said, he’s my favourite player, but I don’t think he is the best player.

Both are great players and I’m more of a fan of Ovechkin's style of game, but if I want to win I'd pick Crosby first. His track record is better and his willingness to improve his game is much higher than Ovechkin’s. And in the NHL winning is the most important thing, and while Crosby doesn’t have the flair, personality or excitement of Ovechkin his game is more complete.

If you honestly think that 20 GMs would take Ovechkin ahead of Crosby you are sadly mistaken.

I also think that Hall’s bullish style makes him more attractive to many Oiler fans; as it should. This team could use a player like that, just like they could use a true #1 centre.

It should be a win-win situation for the Oilers, regardless of who they choose. But if the goal is to build a championship team, not just an exciting team, then leaning towards Seguin makes more sense.

Similar to why Crosby is a better -- not more exciting-- player than Ovechkin.

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One of Canada's most versatile sports personalities. Jason hosts The Jason Gregor Show, weekdays from 2 to 6 p.m., on TSN 1260, and he writes a column every Monday in the Edmonton Journal. You can follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/JasonGregor
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#51 The Gongshow
April 21 2010, 12:33AM
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I really can't understand why this is even a debate. Gretzky was a prodigy at early childhood, Sid the Kid starting getting hype when he was just a young buck as well.

Enter Taylor Hall: Drafted #2 overall in the 2007 OHL Priority Selection. Behind Ryan O’Reilly who had a pretty good first season with the Avalanche this year. Mr.Hall made his OHL debut in 2007–08, scoring a team-high 45 goals and adding 39 assists for 84 points, third on the team. He earned both OHL and CHL Rookie of the Year honors that season.

Hall was instrumental in the Spitfires' 2009 J. Ross Robertson Cup and Memorial Cup championships. He scored the game winning overtime goal in the fifth and deciding game of the OHL Finals against the Brampton Battalion to clinch the title. In 20 post-season games, Hall recorded a playoff-leading 36 points to earn the Wayne Gretzky 99 Award as playoff MVP. Going on to the 2009 Memorial Cup, he added eight points in six games to earn the Stafford Smythe Memorial Trophy as tournament MVP as the Spitfires defeated the Kelowna Rockets 4–1 in the final.

Hall represented Canada at the 2008 IIHF World U18 Championships in Kazan, Russia. He was fifth in tournament scoring, with nine points in seven games, helping Canada to a gold medal. He returned to Canada's under-18 team to earn a second gold medal at the 2008 Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament in Slovakia.

Hall made Canada's national junior team for the 2010 World Junior Championships in Saskatchewan. He was the lone draft-eligible player selected to the final roster. Hall scored a hat-trick against Slovakia, in a game Canada ended up winning 8-2. After the championships had finished Hall finished 3rd overall in scoring. He ended up with 6 goals and 6 assists (12 points) in 6 games. He was named to the World Junior All-Star Team in 2010.

The best thing about Hall is he is a Big Game player and has the ability to raise his game at crucial times. Hall to me is Messier. Mark played wing in Junior and first few seasons in the NHL until moving to the middle.

Every year someone comes out of no where to challenge the consensus #1 going into the season. Heck I remember some media saying that Bobby Ryan was going to be better than Sid because of their size. Don't over-think it just pick the franchise player!!! No disrespect to Seguin, I think he will end up with Linden like numbers, which is nothing to sneeze at. But for my money I am taking the sure fire stud in Hall. He reminds me of Messier.

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#52 Oilers Insider
April 21 2010, 12:52AM
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For me, this is an easy decision. Find out what Boston wants and make your determination based on what you can entice from the Bruins to stay away from their man.

If they want Hall badly, what will they give up to ensure you draft Seguin at #1? Perhaps, you can use that leverage to help move a player like Souray for some lesser salary coming back.

Perhaps you can pick up a good prospect to help replenish your minor league system or propsect list.

Since the Oilers can't really lose by drafting either player and they badly need the skillsets of both, use the power of drafting #1 to your advantage.

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#53 JaroslavPouzar
April 21 2010, 01:08AM
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All this Team Hall vs. Team Seguin talk makes it sound like a freakin "Twilight" forum...

The Oil are drafting the Frnchise with this pic (potentially) go with the guy who was raised in the hockey bubble that is Jr. hockey in Ontario... He is proven on every stage he has been at... Seguin has one huge year... hardly enough to wage the future of the franchise on... my $0.02 Oilers NEED the whole package more than just a center...

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#54 Tarus
April 21 2010, 01:23AM
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My only concern is that the Oilers will over think the pick.

If they think Seguin is the BPA, great take him. If they think Hall is the BPA, and take Seguin just because he's a center, it's a mistake.

I doubt Chicago would take back their winger(Kane) over center(Turris) pick a few years ago. Pittsburg while a great example of building down the middle, shocked everyone in 06 by taking another center when they already had Crosby/Malkin. BPA was their focus over filling winger/defense needs, and it paid off in spades.

To a good portion of the Oiler fanbase who have been watching a passive, indifferent hockey team that puts up the physical resistance of a coma patient the last 4 years, an ultra fast, dynamic, aggressive and extremely talented forward with a mean streak looks very very tempting. Hall's size really isn't that much of an issue(Iginla is 6'1 207, and has been one of the best power forwards in the league for years), and his position is over-stated as he was a center before this year and can be groomed for the position if it really is that important(like Tavaras on the Island this year).

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#55 Mr. K
April 21 2010, 07:34AM
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I believe the argument for Crosby having the better supporting cast was during their first couple years in the league when the Capitals still stunk but Ovechkin was putting huge numbers.

Now that Ovechkin has a good team around him they have won the Presidents Trophy and he has more points per game than Crosby this year, and let's not forget the Caps pushed Crosby and the Pens to game seven with being completely outclassed in net.

-mark

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#56 BUCK75
April 21 2010, 07:40AM
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Who ever is better put together between the ears will be picked first.

FYI: Windsor Wins 7-5 Last Night. Windsor down 3-1. http://www.cambridgenow.ca/npps/story.cfm?nppage=1822

Whether or not heralded prospect Taylor Hall was aware that Edmonton Oilers General Manager Steve Tambellini was in attendance, the Windsor Spitfire superstar provided exactly his team with exactly what the Oilers were desperately missing this past year – a game changer.

The potential first overall pick in this year’s NHL Entry Draft, Hall picked up a pass in the neutral zone, quickly sliced between two defenders, and snapped a perfect shot just over the blocker of Ranger goaltender Brandon Maxwell. Hall’s goal came with just under two minutes remaining and was the eventual game winner as Windsor defeated Kitchener 7-5 Tuesday evening.

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#57 vishcosity
April 21 2010, 07:42AM
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@ Robin -

I should really learn to check this site a bit more often if I've commented. I'll work on that.

Evidence for entitlement? I've never met either one of them, best I have is a few interview reruns and my own sense of kids these days. Your boy Sam is about four right? My boy is ten, and I've coached soccer a couple times. Unlike when we were growing up, some kids seem to think they get the front seat in the car when other adults are along. Kids on soccer teams think that they can jerk around in practice and still should be starters. They're shocked when I tell them they're going to be benched and entitlement pours from their faces. Its not just any one of them, it seems to be nearly all of them. Thing is, with them starting on the bench, then coming in, we usually win.

I'm not saying that specifically TH may seem entitled to something, I'm figuring most kids think they're entitled to the world. My buddy's kid thinks he's the Prince of Egypt and should be able to do nothing, get everything, while thus far mastering only the gameboy.

I think its a reoccuring theme and it would be super hard to avoid for anyone rated #1 for three straight years. Like leaving a small high school and going to a foreign college as a freshman, I was pretty shocked to realize the world didn't revolve around me as king of the hill anymore. It took an adjustment, which I made to some degree, gratefully the spotlight wasn't on or a team's fiscal viability in the mix.

I guess I just don't sense much of this from interviews I've heard with Seguin, and I'm not sure I'm hearing the opposite from Hall. I think he would be in tough to avoid a sense of entitlement, I think everyone would struggle with that.

@ Hemmertime - You really think that Seguin being rated in front of him would dissolve any prior sense of entitlement? One mere rating to change a disposition?

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#58 madjam
April 21 2010, 07:45AM
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Drawing from personal experiences in several different sports and revisiting positions at the tender age of 19 .Mind you these experiences are from the 40-50 year ago range . I found it far easier to garner points being a lone star on a team than trying to put up those numbers on teams loaded with stars . My games playing with stars also made for developing my games far more challenging than being a lone star on a bad team . I learned far more and developed much faster playing with others that were around my caliber . Sure your marked by other teams being a lone star , but still not the intencity at which you are being a star on a star studded team . To me it is a myth to assume that a player is better because he got those points on a bad team - i don't buy that argument . Obviously i take Hall if he is available if i have the choice , and the only way i do not is if using him as bait gets me another offer worth taking/considering . Example: Sequin and perhaps another top first round pick, and maybe more to pass up Hall to the Bruins .

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65 more days and then another how many until we find out how good either will be in their first year? Then another 15 or so years of bitching and complaining that we should've taken the other guy.

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#60 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 08:24AM
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BUCK75 wrote:

Who ever is better put together between the ears will be picked first.

FYI: Windsor Wins 7-5 Last Night. Windsor down 3-1. http://www.cambridgenow.ca/npps/story.cfm?nppage=1822

Whether or not heralded prospect Taylor Hall was aware that Edmonton Oilers General Manager Steve Tambellini was in attendance, the Windsor Spitfire superstar provided exactly his team with exactly what the Oilers were desperately missing this past year – a game changer.

The potential first overall pick in this year’s NHL Entry Draft, Hall picked up a pass in the neutral zone, quickly sliced between two defenders, and snapped a perfect shot just over the blocker of Ranger goaltender Brandon Maxwell. Hall’s goal came with just under two minutes remaining and was the eventual game winner as Windsor defeated Kitchener 7-5 Tuesday evening.

Here's hoping he showed enough to jump back to #1

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#61 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 08:24AM
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Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach wrote:

65 more days and then another how many until we find out how good either will be in their first year? Then another 15 or so years of bitching and complaining that we should've taken the other guy.

Good morning son.

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#62 cambosmash
April 21 2010, 08:37AM
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Better first year of junior - Hall Better second year of junior - Seguin Better third year of junior - Most likely Seguin

Where's this Taylor Hall mean streak talk coming from? Did you watch the World Juniors? Yes he goes into corners and to the front of the net. He also holds on to the puck a long time and takes a beating for it. Don't compare him to Ovechkin, he's a shooting version of Hemmer (not a bad thing).

If Seguin thinks the game better I want him.

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#63 VK63
April 21 2010, 08:39AM
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@Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach

Isnt that part and parcel of being an "intelligent" hockey market?

Or just vindication for those that have a life.

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#64 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 08:45AM
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cambosmash wrote:

Better first year of junior - Hall Better second year of junior - Seguin Better third year of junior - Most likely Seguin

Where's this Taylor Hall mean streak talk coming from? Did you watch the World Juniors? Yes he goes into corners and to the front of the net. He also holds on to the puck a long time and takes a beating for it. Don't compare him to Ovechkin, he's a shooting version of Hemmer (not a bad thing).

If Seguin thinks the game better I want him.

"Better first year of junior - Hall Better second year of junior - Seguin Better third year of junior - Most likely Seguin"

That's a really biased way to look at things. Tough to punish a guy for making the best league for his age group a year early.

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#65 madjam
April 21 2010, 08:45AM
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David S wrote:

Actually, some of us don't really care because its a no-lose situation. Both Robin and Jason are leaning to Seguin so that's good enough for me. The only guys debating this stuff to no end 12 hours a day must either have the best job in the world or no job at all.

I have one of the best jobs in the world and i'm very good at it as well for i have the best of both worlds . I'm a happy early retiree and i do my job well !

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#66 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 09:12AM
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Jason.

You might hate me for sitting on the fence. That's fine.

I hate it when people who haven't watched the two players play make a decision and argue it to death when they don't know what the heck they are talking about.

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Not to take a shot at the media, but didn't they all say Moreau wouldn't be an Oiler the day after the deadline? Why would this be any different with Hall vs. Seguin? Is it not possible that the team just isn't telling anyone what their plan is? I mean after listening to Tambo it was clear there was no market for certain guys going into the deadline, yet the media had a different impression going into the deadline.

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Bucknuck wrote:

Jason.

You might hate me for sitting on the fence. That's fine.

I hate it when people who haven't watched the two players play make a decision and argue it to death when they don't know what the heck they are talking about.

This is my beef. There seems to be too many people that think they know who the better player is, yet most of those people have only watched a few of the games on TV. How can you get good judgement on a player from watching them on TV? Being there is a totally different aspect, do we know what Hall and Seguin do away from the puck?

I say we take Hall, but if we take Seguin fine because from what I read it is a close battle and it shouldn't matter which one we end up wih.

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#69 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 09:17AM
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Ogden Brother Jr. - Team Strudwick for coach wrote:

Not to take a shot at the media, but didn't they all say Moreau wouldn't be an Oiler the day after the deadline? Why would this be any different with Hall vs. Seguin? Is it not possible that the team just isn't telling anyone what their plan is? I mean after listening to Tambo it was clear there was no market for certain guys going into the deadline, yet the media had a different impression going into the deadline.

Who knows what happend with Moreau. I don't think it's suprising to see why the media would pick up that he is going to be delt, but if Tambo couldn't get what he wanted... or the common theme that no one would litterally even take him came to fruition....

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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Who knows what happend with Moreau. I don't think it's suprising to see why the media would pick up that he is going to be delt, but if Tambo couldn't get what he wanted... or the common theme that no one would litterally even take him came to fruition....

It's not just Moreau, it seems when it comes to player moves that rarely does local media here anything about them. So I'm not sure why the biggest move of this clubs future would be leaked.

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#71 Petr's Jofa
April 21 2010, 09:20AM
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@Bucknuck

Go Team Fence!

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#72 jake
April 21 2010, 09:27AM
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Oilers Insider wrote:

For me, this is an easy decision. Find out what Boston wants and make your determination based on what you can entice from the Bruins to stay away from their man.

If they want Hall badly, what will they give up to ensure you draft Seguin at #1? Perhaps, you can use that leverage to help move a player like Souray for some lesser salary coming back.

Perhaps you can pick up a good prospect to help replenish your minor league system or propsect list.

Since the Oilers can't really lose by drafting either player and they badly need the skillsets of both, use the power of drafting #1 to your advantage.

I like this line of thinking. Another element to this whole thing is knowing the father/parents involved, and any potential friction down the road, don't need Lindros/Clark part 2.

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#73 KB
April 21 2010, 09:33AM
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I love the Hall vs Seguin debate. I am personally leaning towards Seguin, but truthfully, I hav enot watched enough of either player to make a truly informed decision. Either player will be fine for me.

However, I have watched a ton of Crosby and Ovechkin...Crosby is currently my favorite player, so in my biased opinion, I would choose Crosby. I just love watching him play...

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#74 David Staples
April 21 2010, 09:49AM
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Jason: Why respects guys or gals who have selected Hall over Seguin or Seguin over Hall?

How many times have these fans ever seen either guy play?

With all due respect, unless you've seen each player at least 10-plus times this year at different times, can your opinion be anything but conjecture. It's just hot air.

Hey, as a fan, it's fun to have an opinion. I get that. But no one should be too full of their opinion on either player, not unless they've done their homework, and I certainly have not.

Sign me up for Team Stu MacGregor. At least he's seen these guys play quite a bit.

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#75 Rusty Duggan
April 21 2010, 10:02AM
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David Staples wrote:

Jason: Why respects guys or gals who have selected Hall over Seguin or Seguin over Hall?

How many times have these fans ever seen either guy play?

With all due respect, unless you've seen each player at least 10-plus times this year at different times, can your opinion be anything but conjecture. It's just hot air.

Hey, as a fan, it's fun to have an opinion. I get that. But no one should be too full of their opinion on either player, not unless they've done their homework, and I certainly have not.

Sign me up for Team Stu MacGregor. At least he's seen these guys play quite a bit.

I totatlly agree with you. I've searched and searched for info on these guys. I eventually found some "miked" video with Hall and Seguin practicing with their teams....speaking of which, did Hall ever find his best friend Doug?

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#76 BUCK75
April 21 2010, 10:03AM
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@David Staples

I half agree with you. You get props for the comment, but we should not be arguing over the talent. Everyone has been spoon fed the talent aspect. We should not be arguing over heart, as very few of us can pass any judgement on Seguin. All we can argue is what the media is giving us & how we "hope" it will equate into an Oilers uniform.

The only fear I have is that us sheep are going to hang too high of an expectation on whomever we pick. A player like Jason Arnott is an example, a solid player for 17 years. If either one of them turns into Jason Arnott I wouldn't be disappointed, so long as they chose to stay here.

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#77 Ted Sheckler
April 21 2010, 10:09AM
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BUCK75 wrote:

I half agree with you. You get props for the comment, but we should not be arguing over the talent. Everyone has been spoon fed the talent aspect. We should not be arguing over heart, as very few of us can pass any judgement on Seguin. All we can argue is what the media is giving us & how we "hope" it will equate into an Oilers uniform.

The only fear I have is that us sheep are going to hang too high of an expectation on whomever we pick. A player like Jason Arnott is an example, a solid player for 17 years. If either one of them turns into Jason Arnott I wouldn't be disappointed, so long as they chose to stay here.

"If either one of them turns into Jason Arnott I wouldn't be disappointed, so long as they chose to stay here." Let's Arnott and say we did.

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#78 mowgli
April 21 2010, 10:18AM
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The Gongshow wrote:

I really can't understand why this is even a debate. Gretzky was a prodigy at early childhood, Sid the Kid starting getting hype when he was just a young buck as well.

Enter Taylor Hall: Drafted #2 overall in the 2007 OHL Priority Selection. Behind Ryan O’Reilly who had a pretty good first season with the Avalanche this year. Mr.Hall made his OHL debut in 2007–08, scoring a team-high 45 goals and adding 39 assists for 84 points, third on the team. He earned both OHL and CHL Rookie of the Year honors that season.

Hall was instrumental in the Spitfires' 2009 J. Ross Robertson Cup and Memorial Cup championships. He scored the game winning overtime goal in the fifth and deciding game of the OHL Finals against the Brampton Battalion to clinch the title. In 20 post-season games, Hall recorded a playoff-leading 36 points to earn the Wayne Gretzky 99 Award as playoff MVP. Going on to the 2009 Memorial Cup, he added eight points in six games to earn the Stafford Smythe Memorial Trophy as tournament MVP as the Spitfires defeated the Kelowna Rockets 4–1 in the final.

Hall represented Canada at the 2008 IIHF World U18 Championships in Kazan, Russia. He was fifth in tournament scoring, with nine points in seven games, helping Canada to a gold medal. He returned to Canada's under-18 team to earn a second gold medal at the 2008 Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament in Slovakia.

Hall made Canada's national junior team for the 2010 World Junior Championships in Saskatchewan. He was the lone draft-eligible player selected to the final roster. Hall scored a hat-trick against Slovakia, in a game Canada ended up winning 8-2. After the championships had finished Hall finished 3rd overall in scoring. He ended up with 6 goals and 6 assists (12 points) in 6 games. He was named to the World Junior All-Star Team in 2010.

The best thing about Hall is he is a Big Game player and has the ability to raise his game at crucial times. Hall to me is Messier. Mark played wing in Junior and first few seasons in the NHL until moving to the middle.

Every year someone comes out of no where to challenge the consensus #1 going into the season. Heck I remember some media saying that Bobby Ryan was going to be better than Sid because of their size. Don't over-think it just pick the franchise player!!! No disrespect to Seguin, I think he will end up with Linden like numbers, which is nothing to sneeze at. But for my money I am taking the sure fire stud in Hall. He reminds me of Messier.

You are so right.

Tambo make the smart choice.

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#79 Milli
April 21 2010, 10:19AM
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Ovie is the most exciting player in the game. Sidney Crosby is the BEST. He is the best since Gretz and Lemiex. He dominates at both ends, he wins. I was never a Crosby fan until last years playoffs, but, watching him take over a game and series, wow, the kid gets it.

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#80 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 10:25AM
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mowgli wrote:

You are so right.

Tambo make the smart choice.

it isn't tambo's choice to make

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#81 BUCK75
April 21 2010, 10:36AM
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@Ted Sheckler

He may have left here on bad terms, but it's no question he could be the 2nd or 3rd best player selected in that year.

My point is that if we have too high of expectations on whomever we select, we could be disappointed. I would love to have a guy who scores 40 goals a few times, but is it a disappointment or failure if our pick scores 20 goals a year over a 10-15 year career?

I would hope that we choose the guy who they feel is going to have a longer career & be the most productive. We would all be happy in 15 years if we had one of the best picks from 2010 playing on our team.

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#82 Ducey
April 21 2010, 10:39AM
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Bucknuck wrote:

Jason.

You might hate me for sitting on the fence. That's fine.

I hate it when people who haven't watched the two players play make a decision and argue it to death when they don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Agree 100%

I can see 1/2 this board being upset that their guy didn't get selected - when they might have seen each of them play a few games on TV, have never met them or their parents, never spoken to their teammates or coaches, etc.

Anyway, if the Oilers are to really kickstart their rebuild it won't be the difference between Hall and Seguin that will do it. It will be their ability to nab a couple of above average players in the later rounds.

And for those guys that think Hall equals Messier - remember Messier was a third round pick. He was not the best player in his draft year and your comparison actually supports picking a more projectable player - like possibly Seguin.

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#84 rubbertrout
April 21 2010, 10:43AM
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I like soup.

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#85 madjam
April 21 2010, 10:44AM
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Sequin has yet to prove his high prowess in top competition and similiar talents . J. Mac Farland ( after an off season this year for reasons unknown ) i believe may have been in and shown more in tough elite talent, international competitions , etc. than Sequin has over last 2-3 seasons . This year MacFarland dropped in projections , but seems to be rising again late in season . I'm not sold that Sequin will remain above MacFarland down the line . I am sold Hall will continue to excel down the line . I'd be happy if Oilers took Hall, and maybe make a deal for MacFarland , or another one i like in Neidermeier .

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#86 Scott in Grande Prairie
April 21 2010, 10:46AM
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Leave it to Mr. Staples to be the voice of reason. Well said, David. You're right, few of us have seen anything more than the standard 15 seconds of highlight goals from each player that runs on TSN or Sportsnet every time they do stories on Hall and Seguin.

We all would have seen Hall at the WJC, but, speaking for myself, I was more fixated on Eberle's play than Hall's. At the time, I wasn't thinking that the Oilers were picking first. But then January happened, and, well ...

Anyway, here's another factor that could sway the Hall/Seguin debate: Character. This is something that I'm hoping the Oilers will get a good fix on in the next 66 days. Honestly, these guys appear to be so equal on the ice that it's probably going to be off-ice stuff that will carry the day.

Hopefully, MacGregor and Co., ask all the right questions during the interview process.

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@Ducey

I'd add that developing their players is the key as well. This isn't the first time that we have had a good group of prospects coming through the ranks. Lets just hope this time guys like Petry turn into guys like Keith and guys like Eberle turn into the 30 goal man that they are touted as.

Not sure that drafting an acquiring young talent has been an issue that much over the past few years as much as those guys reaching their potential has been the issue.

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#88 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 10:47AM
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BUCK75 wrote:

He may have left here on bad terms, but it's no question he could be the 2nd or 3rd best player selected in that year.

My point is that if we have too high of expectations on whomever we select, we could be disappointed. I would love to have a guy who scores 40 goals a few times, but is it a disappointment or failure if our pick scores 20 goals a year over a 10-15 year career?

I would hope that we choose the guy who they feel is going to have a longer career & be the most productive. We would all be happy in 15 years if we had one of the best picks from 2010 playing on our team.

Based on what I've seen previously, I'd say this pick will be considerd a dissapointment if he isn't a consistant 40 goal or 85 point guy. And he'll need to get there within three years before the chaos would begin.

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#90 Crash
April 21 2010, 10:50AM
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David Staples wrote:

Jason: Why respects guys or gals who have selected Hall over Seguin or Seguin over Hall?

How many times have these fans ever seen either guy play?

With all due respect, unless you've seen each player at least 10-plus times this year at different times, can your opinion be anything but conjecture. It's just hot air.

Hey, as a fan, it's fun to have an opinion. I get that. But no one should be too full of their opinion on either player, not unless they've done their homework, and I certainly have not.

Sign me up for Team Stu MacGregor. At least he's seen these guys play quite a bit.

We may not have seen the players play 10 times but us as fans have ways of gathering evidence such as seeing video tape or watching games on TV or listening to what different people have to say. Or even listening to interviews with the players themselves. Then we also have actual stats to help us formulate an opinion or head to head results or playoff games, world junior games, prospect games...some are just willing to say that whatever Central scouting says is good enough for them. Some just say if Gregor, Brownlee and Stauffer say it then that's good enough for them.

Most formulate their own opinions based on the evidence at hand as they see it...what's wrong with that or with a good debate about it?

Gathering evidence is a way of formulating an opinion of the players similar to a murder trial. None of the lawyers in a murder trial actually witnessed the murder(s) but they gather evidence to come to a decision. Just my opinion.

I hope Stu gets it right too...

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@Jason Gregor

You don't like fence sitters, well I remember awhile back saying I preferred one of the ice girls over the other and that didn't fly with you.

This one is too tought to choose between it's like deciding which Sedin should I take over the other in a pool at the start of the year.

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Crash wrote:

We may not have seen the players play 10 times but us as fans have ways of gathering evidence such as seeing video tape or watching games on TV or listening to what different people have to say. Or even listening to interviews with the players themselves. Then we also have actual stats to help us formulate an opinion or head to head results or playoff games, world junior games, prospect games...some are just willing to say that whatever Central scouting says is good enough for them. Some just say if Gregor, Brownlee and Stauffer say it then that's good enough for them.

Most formulate their own opinions based on the evidence at hand as they see it...what's wrong with that or with a good debate about it?

Gathering evidence is a way of formulating an opinion of the players similar to a murder trial. None of the lawyers in a murder trial actually witnessed the murder(s) but they gather evidence to come to a decision. Just my opinion.

I hope Stu gets it right too...

95% of the evidence that has been gathered on Hall and Seguin is hearsay. McKenzie and Mcguire both mentioned that they go off of what scouts have told them as they haven't seen either enough to make a decision.

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#93 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 10:59AM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

I don't like fence sitters in any debate was my point. You take a stance and defend it. You might turn out to be wrong, and then the person can fess up.

It would be easy to say, I like both and both will be great, which is probably true. But having an opinion and backing it up makes for interesting content.

Even the scouts who watch them prefer one over the other, and that's the scouts from within the organization. So there is no guarantee they will choose the right player for this franchise.

You have to have a stance in order to defend it, and in order to take a stance I need more information. I can't go back in time and watch more OHL games so I am forced to watch others blow hot air.

I agree that it is more fun to watch people argue than to have a whole pile of people say "whatever will be fine, ho hum". If I am gong to become embroiled ina debate I better believe in it, and i don't.

I do believe that Horcoff will have a bounce back year and that he is a key part of the rebuild. I can defend that stance. I also think Dubnyk is the way to go in net for backup. I also think Hemsky is a star and shoudln't be traded for prospects. I want to be entertained, dammit, and Hemsky is entertaining. I have watched those players and feel confident I know what I am talking about.

Hall vs Seguin. I guess I gotta sit that argument out, but I like speculating as much as the next guy.

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#94 Mike Krushelnyski
April 21 2010, 10:59AM
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@David Staples

Props.

I've been itching to declare for Team Hall, based on pretty much the same arguments that Gongshow made at the top of the page, but honestly I've seen Hall play 6 games at the WJHC and I've never seen Seguin play a single game. I'm guessing 95% of the people fervently arguing for one or the other are in the same boat. Go team Stu MacGregor! Don't eff this up!

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Completely off topic, but how do you get Ott on your show so often?

We need to look at drafting a couple of guys like him.

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#96 Oil99
April 21 2010, 11:02AM
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@Jason Gregor

I mentioned Heatley because I don't agree with some people and their comparison to Bure, but I also don't agree with people comparing Seguin to Stevie Y and/or Sakic.

In a article titled "Taylor or Tyler" I just said that Crosby and O.V should not even be mentioned.

I have been reading and coming to this site for a long time (only started posting now cause I couldn't take it anymore) because when you or Brownlee post it seems like a butt-kissing love-a-thon from the other posters.

God forbid someone ever disagree with you guys.

A whiny kid? I tend to be a little blunt and say it as I see it

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#97 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 11:06AM
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Crash wrote:

We may not have seen the players play 10 times but us as fans have ways of gathering evidence such as seeing video tape or watching games on TV or listening to what different people have to say. Or even listening to interviews with the players themselves. Then we also have actual stats to help us formulate an opinion or head to head results or playoff games, world junior games, prospect games...some are just willing to say that whatever Central scouting says is good enough for them. Some just say if Gregor, Brownlee and Stauffer say it then that's good enough for them.

Most formulate their own opinions based on the evidence at hand as they see it...what's wrong with that or with a good debate about it?

Gathering evidence is a way of formulating an opinion of the players similar to a murder trial. None of the lawyers in a murder trial actually witnessed the murder(s) but they gather evidence to come to a decision. Just my opinion.

I hope Stu gets it right too...

I don't think anyone said that debating the point was a bad thing. It's a lot of fun. It's the dart throw at people sitting on the fence that hit a nerve with me.

I love watching you guys duke it out. Jason is right - it makes for much more entertaining speculation for everyone. I will say that it can be irritating watching folks throw around their hot air and acting like it is fact.

"Hall is like Ovechkin, and Seguin is like Daigle. Ovie is better than Daigle so Hall will be better than Seguin." These kinds of arguments make me grit my teeth.

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#98 BUCK75
April 21 2010, 11:14AM
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@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

That's the sad truth. With guys like Stamkos, Tavares, Kane, Toews & even Doughty having such strong starts to their careers the bar is pretty high.

So when does the chaos start on Gagner?

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#99 Benhur
April 21 2010, 11:15AM
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I have been leaning towards drafting Seguin and making a deal with Boston to not take TH. Pick up something of value from Boston as we definitly need more prospects.

I Youtubed Seguins highlights and he definitly is smooth BUT on one highlight he was going for his hat trick and the other team pulled their goalie to try and tie the game. Seguin got the puck outside their blue line and broke up ice 2 on 1 with his winger. The Defenseman played TS and instead of passing to his winger for a easy shot at goal he made a move around the defenseman and took his shot and goal. I did not like that ME attitude, it was a selfish move. If that is the kind of attitude he has it rings some real alarms for me.

Also the case has been made that he plays on a weaker team and is the shining light on the team. So obviously he gets all the primo minutes and should do well. This reminds me of another Oiler draftee, Marc Pouliott, who played for a very poor QJHL team. The thought about drafting Pouliott was he did very well on a weak team and was a centre. It didn't really turnout that well for the Oilers.

So I have developed some skepticism about selecting Seguin. Now I know the window I have looked thru is small and hopefully the scouts who have had a chance to see a lot of the players will take note of their attitudes and drive. Gotta depend on them!

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#100 Rusty Duggan
April 21 2010, 11:23AM
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mowgli wrote:

You are so right.

Tambo make the smart choice.

Good argument Gongshow. This draft year is so friggin close, it's disgusting.

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