Taylor or Tyler? 66 more days...

Jason Gregor
April 20 2010 06:17PM

2010 Home Hardware CHL-NHL Top Prospects Game

The Taylor or Tyler debate will rage for another 66 days until the Oilers draft one of them, but it won’t stop there and it will surely intensify over the next ten seasons, especially if one of them becomes much more proficient.

I respect the guys or gals who have chosen Hall or Seguin, because I hate fence sitters. Pick why you like one and defend it to the death. I find it interesting how TEAM HALL has used Kyle Turris as an example of why you should stay away from Seguin. Like I said, when you are battling your point, you reach for any example that can help you. Good on you TEAM HALL, although the Turris/Seguin comparison is a major stretch in my opinion.

Due to the position and style of how Hall and Seguin play it was only natural to see this debate morph into the Crosby v. Ovechkin argument. I don’t think Hall or Seguin will be as dominant as Crosby or Ovechkin, but you can make the comparison based on their position and style of play. Seguin is more like Crosby, while Hall is more dynamic like Ovechkin.

I’ve said for years that Ovechkin is my favourite player to watch, but I don’t think he is better than Crosby. Which resulted in these types of responses:

Hemmertime: I'd take Ovechkin any day over Crosby. Swap them cities and put OV with Malkin and company and maybe he has a cup ring.

Crosby has elevated his game this year adding goal scoring, however when OV wants to take over a game, his hitting, shooting and endurance puts him in a class of his own.

RubberTrout: Based on the fact that he is a better overall offensive player? Based on the fact that he is more physical? Lots of things. It isn't just scoring goals. Ovie makes his teammates better too you know. Just because you say Crosby is better doesn't mean that is the gospel truth.

Gents what makes you think Ovechkin is a better overall offensive player?

Career numbers for Crosby in 371 games played he’s averaged 1.36 pts/game. Ovechkin in 396 games averages 1.33 pts/game.

Ovechkin is a better pure goal scorer and is more physical. He should be, considering he is three inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, but is offensive game doesn’t produce more points and unlike Crosby, Ovechkin’s game hasn’t improved the last few seasons?

This past summer after winning the Cup, Crosby said he needed to be a better goal scorer and improve his faceoffs. And what does he do this past season? He ends up leading the league in goals, and was 55.7% in the dot. He also took the most faceoffs in the entire league. He impacts the game more than Ovechkin.

The argument that Crosby has Malkin and that makes him better is weak. Crosby doesn't PLAY regularly with Malkin. Ovechkin plays with Backstrom and look at their point totals the past two seasons. Do you think that Malkin is that much better than Backstrom??

Malkin tallied 190 points to Backstrom’s 189. Not much difference.

You guys suggest that Crosby has a better supporting cast, but the only major difference has been in goal. Marc Andre Fleury is clearly better than Theodore or Varlamov, but compare the offensive depth of the Capitals and Penguins and it favours the Capitals.

Penguins 2010 Capitals 2010
Crosby 109 Ovechkin 109
Malkin 77 Backstrom 101
Gonchar 50 Semin 84
Staal 49 Green 76
Guerin 45 Laich 59
    Knuble 53
    Fleischmann 51
       
Penguins 2009   Capitals 2009  
Malkin 113 Ovechkin 110
Crosby 103 Backstrom 88
Staal 49 Semin 79
Sykora 46 Green 73
Fedotenko 39 Laich 53

Crosby doesn’t have close to the offensive supporting cast that Ovechkin has, yet you claim Crosby has the advantage playing in Pittsburgh. I’d love to know what makes you think Fleury helps him produce more points? Fleury has given Crosby a better chance of winning, but the goalie doesn’t impact his offensive points. If anything you can say that Crosby plays a bigger role in his team’s success than Ovechkin does in Washington.

Ovechkin scores more highlight reel goals, and I think that has influenced many people into thinking he is the best player in the game. Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer, but he is not a better offensive player than Crosby. Offence is a combination of goal scoring and play making and Crosby is better at this stage of the game.

Crosby hones his skills in the off-season and his all-around game is far superior to Ovechkin’s. Ovechkin has a magnetic personality and his style of play is very entertaining and that’s what makes him so likeable, and probably why fans love him. Like I said, he’s my favourite player, but I don’t think he is the best player.

Both are great players and I’m more of a fan of Ovechkin's style of game, but if I want to win I'd pick Crosby first. His track record is better and his willingness to improve his game is much higher than Ovechkin’s. And in the NHL winning is the most important thing, and while Crosby doesn’t have the flair, personality or excitement of Ovechkin his game is more complete.

If you honestly think that 20 GMs would take Ovechkin ahead of Crosby you are sadly mistaken.

I also think that Hall’s bullish style makes him more attractive to many Oiler fans; as it should. This team could use a player like that, just like they could use a true #1 centre.

It should be a win-win situation for the Oilers, regardless of who they choose. But if the goal is to build a championship team, not just an exciting team, then leaning towards Seguin makes more sense.

Similar to why Crosby is a better -- not more exciting-- player than Ovechkin.

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One of Canada's most versatile sports personalities. Jason hosts The Jason Gregor Show, weekdays from 2 to 6 p.m., on TSN 1260, and he writes a column every Monday in the Edmonton Journal. You can follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/JasonGregor
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#1 David Staples
April 21 2010, 09:49AM
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Jason: Why respects guys or gals who have selected Hall over Seguin or Seguin over Hall?

How many times have these fans ever seen either guy play?

With all due respect, unless you've seen each player at least 10-plus times this year at different times, can your opinion be anything but conjecture. It's just hot air.

Hey, as a fan, it's fun to have an opinion. I get that. But no one should be too full of their opinion on either player, not unless they've done their homework, and I certainly have not.

Sign me up for Team Stu MacGregor. At least he's seen these guys play quite a bit.

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#2 The Gongshow
April 21 2010, 12:33AM
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I really can't understand why this is even a debate. Gretzky was a prodigy at early childhood, Sid the Kid starting getting hype when he was just a young buck as well.

Enter Taylor Hall: Drafted #2 overall in the 2007 OHL Priority Selection. Behind Ryan O’Reilly who had a pretty good first season with the Avalanche this year. Mr.Hall made his OHL debut in 2007–08, scoring a team-high 45 goals and adding 39 assists for 84 points, third on the team. He earned both OHL and CHL Rookie of the Year honors that season.

Hall was instrumental in the Spitfires' 2009 J. Ross Robertson Cup and Memorial Cup championships. He scored the game winning overtime goal in the fifth and deciding game of the OHL Finals against the Brampton Battalion to clinch the title. In 20 post-season games, Hall recorded a playoff-leading 36 points to earn the Wayne Gretzky 99 Award as playoff MVP. Going on to the 2009 Memorial Cup, he added eight points in six games to earn the Stafford Smythe Memorial Trophy as tournament MVP as the Spitfires defeated the Kelowna Rockets 4–1 in the final.

Hall represented Canada at the 2008 IIHF World U18 Championships in Kazan, Russia. He was fifth in tournament scoring, with nine points in seven games, helping Canada to a gold medal. He returned to Canada's under-18 team to earn a second gold medal at the 2008 Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament in Slovakia.

Hall made Canada's national junior team for the 2010 World Junior Championships in Saskatchewan. He was the lone draft-eligible player selected to the final roster. Hall scored a hat-trick against Slovakia, in a game Canada ended up winning 8-2. After the championships had finished Hall finished 3rd overall in scoring. He ended up with 6 goals and 6 assists (12 points) in 6 games. He was named to the World Junior All-Star Team in 2010.

The best thing about Hall is he is a Big Game player and has the ability to raise his game at crucial times. Hall to me is Messier. Mark played wing in Junior and first few seasons in the NHL until moving to the middle.

Every year someone comes out of no where to challenge the consensus #1 going into the season. Heck I remember some media saying that Bobby Ryan was going to be better than Sid because of their size. Don't over-think it just pick the franchise player!!! No disrespect to Seguin, I think he will end up with Linden like numbers, which is nothing to sneeze at. But for my money I am taking the sure fire stud in Hall. He reminds me of Messier.

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#4 Oil99
April 20 2010, 08:46PM
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@Jason Gregor

Do you actually read? I said I would take "Hall+ the little edge and toughness that he seems to play with (minus Heatley's attitude of course)"

Where did I ever say Heatley played with an edge?

Yes, I would take Heatley over Toews, like I said minus Heatley's attitude.

Get off that high horse that you seem to always ride in on and check your huge ego at the door buddy. I am nowhere near ignorant and I am not into playing games.

It's called an opinion. I think you need to learn to respect that others actually may have an opinion different then your own.

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#5 JaroslavPouzar
April 21 2010, 01:08AM
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All this Team Hall vs. Team Seguin talk makes it sound like a freakin "Twilight" forum...

The Oil are drafting the Frnchise with this pic (potentially) go with the guy who was raised in the hockey bubble that is Jr. hockey in Ontario... He is proven on every stage he has been at... Seguin has one huge year... hardly enough to wage the future of the franchise on... my $0.02 Oilers NEED the whole package more than just a center...

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#6 Aleslav Smidsky
April 21 2010, 01:15PM
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Good read Gregor, but I strongly disagree.

Ovechkin is a all around better.

First and foremost, the Malkin arguement is not WEAK. Malkin is a way better player than Backstrom. Malkin is a way more dominant than Backstrom.

Most of Backstrom points come and have come from playing along side Ovechkin. Malkin doesn't play with Crosby yet he puts up numbers in the category of Crosby and Ovechkin. He is a handful for any defence when he is on his game. Seeing that Penguins have two dominant lines to work with, the weaker line matches would go in favour of Sidney Crosby. Also since their arrival in the league, Sidney Crosby has had a better/complete teams around him.

Until this year 66% of Crosbys points have been assists. Most of those came playing powerplay alongside the likes of Malkin, Gonchar, Guerin, Hossa. I'm not saying these players and the powerplay are the reason Crsoby got points, but these are dominant/game breaking players in their own right. Since his first game in the league, Ovechkin has taken the Capitals over and made them and the players around him what they are.

Often I have heard/read in the media how Sidney needs a new linemates this that and a third, everytime his game would slump or show signs of it. Even in the early games of this years Olympics, when Crosby wasn't getting points the talk was of better linemates for Sid the Kid. A dominant player doesn't need a superior supporting staff to get going, he should make it happen. On their own pound for pound Ovechkin is more dominant hockey presence.

The use of this years stats to show that Ovechkin has a better team is pretty weak as well. Gonchar and Malkin were injuried and Malkin was still more then a PPG player. I think a better way of comparing the team stats would have been if you used the last 5 years, and then see what the numbers show.

Tell me again how Crosby has or plays a bigger role on his team then Ovechkin?

At this stage of the game, do you mean this year? Sure Crosby has improved on face-offs and got a lots of goals this year, but its because he trained harder over the summer. Ovechkin is more of a natural, and that is also what makes him more creative and a better playmaker. Crosby is a excellent study, Ovechkin is a visionary.

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#7 SirFozz
April 20 2010, 06:30PM
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Can we combine the two into one super-player...with four arms and legs? Cause that would be perfect.

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#8 Bombay
April 20 2010, 06:40PM
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Unbelievable!! For all those claiming Hall's physicality outmatches Seguin's, just look at that picture. Seguin is easily a foot taller than Hall. I'm more sold than ever that Seguin is the right guy.

Oh and Gregor, do you by any chance know what Seguin's faceoff numbers are like?

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#9 David S
April 20 2010, 07:07PM
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Team Hall wrote:

The Oilersnation polarizes into two camps, Team Hall v Team Seguin. A civil war the likes of which this site has never scene before is coming... Oh, and thanks a lot Gregor for chopping my Turris analogy, now what am I supposed to use as evidence of the true superiority of Hall? Certainly not his good looks, I'll tell you that. Dude looks like Oli Jokinens long lost brother.

Actually, some of us don't really care because its a no-lose situation. Both Robin and Jason are leaning to Seguin so that's good enough for me. The only guys debating this stuff to no end 12 hours a day must either have the best job in the world or no job at all.

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#10 Andrew
April 20 2010, 08:19PM
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I am a huge Ovechkin fan because he's exciting and plays the game with a very exciting infectious nature and makes you want to watch hockey. I am not a Crosby fan, not for any particular reason, just not a fan. But there is no player that is more technically sound than Sidney Crosby. If I were to build a team it would be around Crosby as well. Because once Ovechkin gets older and his legs slow down and he isn't as strong his production will decline much more than Crosby because although he uses his speed as well Crosby is a much more cerebral player with better fundamentals. Watch his passes and his shots, he's like the Steve Nash of Hockey. He always has his hands planted at the strongest points on his stick, he always has his legs braced behind his passes and almost always makes the best decisions with the puck. Not necessarily an exciting player but no doubt the best in the league.

I would select Seguin for many reasons, mainly because the Oilers have little depth at centre. Gagner has yet to prove he can play centre in the NHL at a regular basis, same goes for Cogliano, and Horcoff is a diminishing player due to injuries. The Oilers have some depth on their wings with Penner, Brule and Hemsky and Eberle and Svensson who should start to come around in the next 1-3 years. Also because he can play in all situations Seguin would help to plug up more weak spots on their team than Hall. Seguin would help strengthen the Oilers down the middle and would help the PK, PP, and their even strength play all areas that need inprovement, especially the Oilers defensive play in all areas of the ice. Hall would boost the Oilers offence both even strength and on the PP, but that's really it. Also before Hemsky went down the Oilers looked fairly good offensively and although they weren't going to keep up the goals per game rate of 2.9-3 that they were scoring at in October/November, if Hemsky hadn't gotten hurt it isn't exactly impossible to imagine that the Oilers could have at least put up a GPG rate that stood somewhere in the 2.7 range. The Oilers need more defensive help than offensive and it's not like Seguin is terrible offensively, he's still a great offensive player, he's just not an elite level goal scorer.

While many say Hall can be converted to centre he hasn't played that position since Midget level hockey as I believe he immediately moved to the wing in junior. That's prime development stage for Hockey players from age 16-19 and the fact is if the Spitfires felt he was better on the wing in junior it seems unlikely he'll make the switch in the NHL as being a rookie is hard enough, moving from wing to centre is extremely difficult due to the increased defensive responsibility and the fact that you have to read both sides of the ice offensively and defensively, and Hall isn't the best defensive player as that is his prime weakness.

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#12 Heavyd
April 20 2010, 09:15PM
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Who cares who we take. We have the first overall pick, and Calgary has nothing till the third round, so thats all I care about.

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#13 Crash
April 20 2010, 09:28PM
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MrCondor wrote:

Oiler's need grit. Agree 100% I don't know if the #1 overall draft pick is the place to look for it. I'd rather use one of our multiple 2nd and 3rd rounders (hopefully we get more) for the grit hunt.

Hall's gritty play actually concerns me. I have the exact same concern for OV. I'll be surprised if OV makes it through his contract without significant time on the IR.

Speed, grit, and long career are terms I don't think go well together. Add in a tendancy to put your head down I believe there is a risk in Hall.

That's my major concern for Hall.

What is your major concern for Seguin?

My concerns on Seguin are he turns out to be yet another soft 6ft player who adds to the numerous less than physical skill players we already have and are going to have. With the size of goaltenders in todays game and the size of their equipment a team really needs to have guys that are willing to take the puck to the net or are willing to go there and create the traffic required to generate goals. I'm concerned Seguin doesn't play that game...he described himself as a puck distributor...the problem with distributing the puck is it doesn't really help without guys who will go to the net.

My other concern with Seguin is how ineffective he was rendered in the last playoff series he played. He was completely neutralized not only offensively but defensively. I'm not sure he's shown that he can show up when the heat is on and the games get bigger....I'm concerned he will always be a good regular season guy but a disappearing act in the playoffs. This could be a reason he was cut at the world jr camp.

So while you are concerned that Hall could get injured I'm concerned that Seguin would never put himself in a position to get injured thus making him less than effective in today's game.

You mentioned that the Oilers should look to later rounds to get the grit...the only problem with that is it's rare to find a hard nosed gritty player with the kind of skill that Hall has and I'd hate to pass on it.

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#14 Oil99
April 20 2010, 10:41PM
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@Crash

"Such as in this article which is extremely unfair to Hall where it states if you want excitement choose Hall but if you want a championship choose Seguin...it's being said like it's a guaranteed fact...but so far in their young just beginning careers Hall has been the BEST player on a team that has won a championship..."

Totally bang on. Great point. Where exactly has Seguin led his OHL team to? Or what exactly has he won in his career? NOTHING!!!

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#15 OilFan
April 20 2010, 11:07PM
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@Oil99

Hall plays with a better team, can't knock Seguin since his team mates aren't as good, can you ? I think the conversation was brought up yesterday regarding teams and championships. 1 player is not a team

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#16 Bacon Nachos
April 20 2010, 11:43PM
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@Bombay

Um. That's just the picture. If you look at their OHL websites, they're almost exactly the same height and build.

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Not to take a shot at the media, but didn't they all say Moreau wouldn't be an Oiler the day after the deadline? Why would this be any different with Hall vs. Seguin? Is it not possible that the team just isn't telling anyone what their plan is? I mean after listening to Tambo it was clear there was no market for certain guys going into the deadline, yet the media had a different impression going into the deadline.

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#18 BUCK75
April 21 2010, 10:03AM
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@David Staples

I half agree with you. You get props for the comment, but we should not be arguing over the talent. Everyone has been spoon fed the talent aspect. We should not be arguing over heart, as very few of us can pass any judgement on Seguin. All we can argue is what the media is giving us & how we "hope" it will equate into an Oilers uniform.

The only fear I have is that us sheep are going to hang too high of an expectation on whomever we pick. A player like Jason Arnott is an example, a solid player for 17 years. If either one of them turns into Jason Arnott I wouldn't be disappointed, so long as they chose to stay here.

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#19 rubbertrout
April 21 2010, 10:43AM
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I like soup.

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#20 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 11:42AM
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Crash wrote:

I must say that the debating at times can be enjoying or as you call it, duking it out, lol...what I don't like is how it sometimes gets personal when someone doesn't like your opinion and they say things like "what world are you living in" or "what you say is laughable" or "you are an idiot for thinking that"....or they actually tell you what you are thinking...or some don't even have a point they just go straight to the insults...

For the most part it's fun though and it looks like this debate is going to be a long one :)

Crash you have been doing a great job defending your opinion in a respectable way.

~ Even though your opinion is crap and I don't know what planet you are from~

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#21 Senator Theo
April 21 2010, 01:07PM
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rubbertrout wrote:

I like soup.

Not me - I'm on team salad, and I hear people on team soup don't know what they're talking about.

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#23 Team Hall
April 21 2010, 03:57PM
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OK, I'm just gonna come out and say this: I think Bob Stauffer is a great analyst, excellent commentator, terrible at play by play. Absolutely bush league at play by play. Let's get him more analysis jobs, and hire someone with vocal training to do play by play. If I have to listen to him do play by play for 20 years, I'm going to join Rod Phillips in Phoenix.

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#24 Bucknuck
April 21 2010, 04:07PM
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@Aleslav Smidsky

Crosby and Staal do not play on the same line. You weaken your credibility with the comparison between Knuble and him.

You are underestimating how good Backstrom is. Backstrom plays on the first line against the toughest defense on each team. He also has to be Ovechkin's defensive conscience. That is what beefs up Ovechkins plus minus. Malkin gets second pairing since Crosby's line takes the toughest assignments.

I take Crosby over Ovechkin and I take Backstrom over Malkin if I was creating my dream team.

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#26 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 21 2010, 09:54PM
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Bucknuck wrote:

What is hard to believe about it?

You go from playing with marginal players to playing with elite offensive players. They complement each other very well. Is it hard to believe that playing with those high end players would increase point production by 15 to 20 percent?

He really broke out last year when he was playing with Semin, Backstrom and Green.

He doesn't get 60 goals if is playing with the folks he was in his rooke year.

I don't believe it because I can give you countless examples of guys that went to better teams/line mates with little to no increase in offensive production (and in alot of cases decreases)

07/08 was AO's 65 goal season. That was Backstroms rookie year were he only had 69 points, Green put up a good 56 points but not the spectacular 73 and 76 points he had the last couple of years

To put it another way, Ovechkin scored (goals) at a MORE prolific pace when Backstrom was a below average 1st line center, then he did when Backstrom was an elite top 5 in the world center... that gives reason to question, does it not?

I'll see your AO boosted by Semin/Green/Backstrom and raise you Bill Guerin putting up .26 GPG/.59 PPG his last year with the last place NYI and then putting up .27 GPG/.6 PPG playing with the best player in the world.

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#27 Team Hall
April 20 2010, 06:50PM
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The Oilersnation polarizes into two camps, Team Hall v Team Seguin. A civil war the likes of which this site has never scene before is coming... Oh, and thanks a lot Gregor for chopping my Turris analogy, now what am I supposed to use as evidence of the true superiority of Hall? Certainly not his good looks, I'll tell you that. Dude looks like Oli Jokinens long lost brother.

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#28 SirFozz
April 20 2010, 06:57PM
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Team Hall wrote:

The Oilersnation polarizes into two camps, Team Hall v Team Seguin. A civil war the likes of which this site has never scene before is coming... Oh, and thanks a lot Gregor for chopping my Turris analogy, now what am I supposed to use as evidence of the true superiority of Hall? Certainly not his good looks, I'll tell you that. Dude looks like Oli Jokinens long lost brother.

I wouldn't worry about that, we do have Soura..oh yeah...never mind.

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#29 Hemmertime
April 20 2010, 07:14PM
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"The argument that Crosby has Malkin and that makes him better is weak. Crosby doesn't PLAY regularly with Malkin."

No, but having Malkin on a separate line stops the other team from playing their best checkers against Crosby all the time. They have more to focus on. Pittsburgh's depth has made Crosby appear better. For his first few years Ovechkin didnt have any teammates worth mentioning... and still beat 100 points. 65 goals in this day and age? Un-freaking-believable.

Crosby crossing 50 goal mark this season does a lot to add ammunition to his side of the argument, previous to this year he had never hit 40. He was a smaller version of Joe Thornton. Same time last year I believed Crosby wasn't even the best player on his team, when Malkin shows up and uses his size he is much more prolific than Crosby. Crosby should get more points than Ovie though because he is center. How many of his Assists are off faceoff wins?

But if I had to choose between them, I'll take Ovechkin, can play a 2.5 minute shift up tempo, hit, has 0.68 Goals per game in his career and the personality to keep fans enthralled. Really there is no wrong answer, Crosby does more to make players better around him - so lots of people would pick him - but as far as individual one versus one talent - Ovie.

All that being said: Today I'd draft Seguin. Tomorrow might be back to Hall. You say you admire those who can pick one and stick with it, but near impossible with these two. Each article you read or fact sheet makes you second guess it. I think Hall is more boom or bust (not a big bust though), either going to get an amazing winger, or could be a guy that falls to 2nd or third line through his career. Seguin I think is the safer bet, smart C who might not be your first if doesn't pan out, but will be a decent 2nd. Im hoping his peak isn't it: But I see his worst as David Legwand caliber.

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#30 vishcosity
April 20 2010, 07:26PM
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Seguin has a all league season and he becomes the #1 pick. Where was he last year? Cause last year I only remember hearing about Hall. Does drafting a kid after one good season sound like good logic? Well, maybe if he's improved tremendously in each of his last three, then maybe there is something to it. But one good season, I don't know. Cheechoo had a good season.

Drafting a kid who has figured to be the #1 pick for three years comes with its own set of problems however. Entitlement anyone? If the show is harder than he expects, can he rise up? We'll probably see because he won't be skating through the middle for very long.

I'd take seguin then throw him back to junior. If only because it may help the Oilers lock up a great pick next year too.

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#31 Robin Brownlee
April 20 2010, 07:32PM
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@vishcosity

You've taken a buzzword, "entitlement," that has come into vogue in the last little while and attached it to Hall. What evidence do you have to make that determination?

There's reasonable arguments to be made on the merits of both of them without tossing something as unsubstantiated as that into the mix, no?

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#32 Crash
April 20 2010, 07:35PM
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Windsor not dead just yet...Kitchener was badly outshot again tonight only this time their goaltender didn't save them...Windsor wins 8-5

Kitchener still has the big advantage but Windsor lives to play at least another day

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#33 Hemmertime
April 20 2010, 07:43PM
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@vishcosity

Entitled to nothing, they worked their asses off to get where they are. Any "entitlement" Hall had would have been removed when Seguin ranked #1. They aren't Euros too. :P

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#34 DoubleJ
April 20 2010, 07:57PM
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What position will Skinner go? He has to be jumping up the ladder with his playoff performance. I was kind of hoping for him to slip to 31 st pick.

I first noticed him in the prospect game. Neiderider(sp) and Skinner seemed to be the only two forwards that stood out in that game. IMO.

He's not tall but he still has size. I would love the Oilers to get him. Probably will not happen though.

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#35 Crash
April 20 2010, 08:03PM
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DoubleJ wrote:

What position will Skinner go? He has to be jumping up the ladder with his playoff performance. I was kind of hoping for him to slip to 31 st pick.

I first noticed him in the prospect game. Neiderider(sp) and Skinner seemed to be the only two forwards that stood out in that game. IMO.

He's not tall but he still has size. I would love the Oilers to get him. Probably will not happen though.

Not sure but I just had a look at the top 30 ranked North American skaters as rated by Central Scouting and Skinner isn't in the top 30 so he might be around at 31st pick.

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#36 MrCondor
April 20 2010, 08:04PM
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Bombay wrote:

Unbelievable!! For all those claiming Hall's physicality outmatches Seguin's, just look at that picture. Seguin is easily a foot taller than Hall. I'm more sold than ever that Seguin is the right guy.

Oh and Gregor, do you by any chance know what Seguin's faceoff numbers are like?

And look at him slam that butt end into Hall's ribs!!! He must be the grittiest forward in the OHL.

Question for Hall Supportors (Crash):

What are your thoughts regarding the reports that Hall has been known to be caught with his head down?

Does that concern you, or do you think it's just people hunting for a flaw?

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#37 Oil99
April 20 2010, 08:06PM
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Crosby vs O.V?? Come on man. Both of those guys you mention are in a total different class then either of Hall or Seguin. Give your head a shake if you think it's even close.

If you want to compare Hall and Seguin then look to the Dan Heatley(Hall)Vs Jon Toews(Seguin)

I would take a Heatley-type player in Hall+ the little edge and toughness that he seems to play with (minus Heatley's attitude of course) any day of the week over anything Seguin brings to the table.

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#38 Crash
April 20 2010, 08:11PM
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MrCondor wrote:

And look at him slam that butt end into Hall's ribs!!! He must be the grittiest forward in the OHL.

Question for Hall Supportors (Crash):

What are your thoughts regarding the reports that Hall has been known to be caught with his head down?

Does that concern you, or do you think it's just people hunting for a flaw?

I'm not really sure...I don't think he's ever been injured because of it so I'm not so certain he actually makes a habit of getting caught with his head down....but I guess if his game is to work corners and drive the net he is more likely to encounter physical play...

I'm more concerned that the Oilers don't have enough guys who play this way and this is the way that you need to play in today's NHL in order to win...that has been made especially evident in this years playoffs with traffic in front of the net being the order of the day...

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#39 SirFozz
April 20 2010, 08:11PM
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Oil99 wrote:

Crosby vs O.V?? Come on man. Both of those guys you mention are in a total different class then either of Hall or Seguin. Give your head a shake if you think it's even close.

If you want to compare Hall and Seguin then look to the Dan Heatley(Hall)Vs Jon Toews(Seguin)

I would take a Heatley-type player in Hall+ the little edge and toughness that he seems to play with (minus Heatley's attitude of course) any day of the week over anything Seguin brings to the table.

"I don’t think Hall or Seguin will be as dominant as Crosby or Ovechkin, but you can make the comparison based on their position and style of play."

Did you read the article?

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#40 Nate Full of Hate
April 20 2010, 08:13PM
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Jason,

Seguin 100%

Anyone who compares Seguin with Turris hasn't seen either of them play.

If you listen to the interviews he does, it actually sounds like he wants to play here.

At least he took the time to watch Edmonton play the Wings from behind the Oilers bench...

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#41 oilman53
April 20 2010, 08:15PM
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Hall vs Seguin, scouts around the league claim that Seguin compares to Yzerman, Sakic and Crosby with his leadership. Whereas Hall draws comparison to Ovechkin for his dynamic skillset. This is a tough one folks, Seguin will take a little longer to develop but then you look at Stamkos, kinda slow rookie year then toward the end became an absolute beast. 51 goals in his sophomore season.

Ovechkin and Crosby had immediate impact in the league and we don't know what the intention is for the Oilers. Do they want a shot at the playoffs or do they want a complete rebuild? Our two best players in Hemsky and Penner are up in two years and the way we played doesn't look like the Oilers have the legs to turn it around yet.

Going with Seguin means that the Oilers are willing to be patient, with the amount of smallish skilled wingers were getting that leaves that hole for a good sized physical scoring winger, something that Hall is. We go with Hall then that means the Oilers want to win now and might be looking at stacking the team again and losing baggage like Moreau, POS, Comrie, Nilsson and Pisani. That also means that the Oilers would be all but giving first line duties to Gagner, I believe in Gagner as a number one center. His passing skills are superb but in the overall sense he is small and there is no getting around that.

Whoever the Oilers pick someone is going to unhappy, Hall means we want to win now, Seguin means we want to be patient and build through the system and draft. With the way the Oilers cannot attract any free agents the best way might be to go with Seguin. Trading down with the Bruins for that number 2 pick along with another in the first and maybe dumping a guy like Nilsson or POS and taking on a guy like Ryder might be the best option. The Bruins do covet a winger and word is they're wanting Hall badly. Unless Tambellini is a genius and manages to swing an enormous deal so that the Oilers pick 1-2 then that deal with the Bruins might be the best option for the rebuild.

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#42 Nate Full of Hate
April 20 2010, 08:20PM
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Nobody has really answered why MPS fell so far in the draft...

He just happened to be the first winger drafted....

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#43 Crash
April 20 2010, 08:31PM
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Andrew wrote:

I am a huge Ovechkin fan because he's exciting and plays the game with a very exciting infectious nature and makes you want to watch hockey. I am not a Crosby fan, not for any particular reason, just not a fan. But there is no player that is more technically sound than Sidney Crosby. If I were to build a team it would be around Crosby as well. Because once Ovechkin gets older and his legs slow down and he isn't as strong his production will decline much more than Crosby because although he uses his speed as well Crosby is a much more cerebral player with better fundamentals. Watch his passes and his shots, he's like the Steve Nash of Hockey. He always has his hands planted at the strongest points on his stick, he always has his legs braced behind his passes and almost always makes the best decisions with the puck. Not necessarily an exciting player but no doubt the best in the league.

I would select Seguin for many reasons, mainly because the Oilers have little depth at centre. Gagner has yet to prove he can play centre in the NHL at a regular basis, same goes for Cogliano, and Horcoff is a diminishing player due to injuries. The Oilers have some depth on their wings with Penner, Brule and Hemsky and Eberle and Svensson who should start to come around in the next 1-3 years. Also because he can play in all situations Seguin would help to plug up more weak spots on their team than Hall. Seguin would help strengthen the Oilers down the middle and would help the PK, PP, and their even strength play all areas that need inprovement, especially the Oilers defensive play in all areas of the ice. Hall would boost the Oilers offence both even strength and on the PP, but that's really it. Also before Hemsky went down the Oilers looked fairly good offensively and although they weren't going to keep up the goals per game rate of 2.9-3 that they were scoring at in October/November, if Hemsky hadn't gotten hurt it isn't exactly impossible to imagine that the Oilers could have at least put up a GPG rate that stood somewhere in the 2.7 range. The Oilers need more defensive help than offensive and it's not like Seguin is terrible offensively, he's still a great offensive player, he's just not an elite level goal scorer.

While many say Hall can be converted to centre he hasn't played that position since Midget level hockey as I believe he immediately moved to the wing in junior. That's prime development stage for Hockey players from age 16-19 and the fact is if the Spitfires felt he was better on the wing in junior it seems unlikely he'll make the switch in the NHL as being a rookie is hard enough, moving from wing to centre is extremely difficult due to the increased defensive responsibility and the fact that you have to read both sides of the ice offensively and defensively, and Hall isn't the best defensive player as that is his prime weakness.

Where has it been reported that Hall isn't the best defensive player? I don't understand where this notion comes from. He was +46 this season and had 4 SHG...it doesn't sound like a weakness to me.

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#44 rubbertrout
April 20 2010, 08:35PM
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Funny how I prefer both Seguin and Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's game was already superior to Crosby's and didn't need as much improvement. He scored waaaaay more goals (which is better than getting assists as there can be two assists for every goal) but still got a boatload of assists. His PPG this year is better though isn't it? I think he has better offensive instincts and has more skill. This isn't quantifiable and is what I've observed.

Crosby is making a case for himself with his great improvement this year but he is only more recently starting to level the playing field.

I'd like to see the CORSI numbers for comparison (JW?). Ovie's plus minus is also much better and he takes way more shots.

I still don't see the basis for your last article's comment that Crosby was "better" because he won a cup (that just means he has a better team).

I recognize that there is an argument as to which player is better. I'm just stating my opinion. I happen to disagree with you on this point but really both are exceptional players.

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#45 Oil99
April 20 2010, 08:39PM
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SirFozz wrote:

"I don’t think Hall or Seguin will be as dominant as Crosby or Ovechkin, but you can make the comparison based on their position and style of play."

Did you read the article?

I read the article in full. I don't think with an article titled Taylor or Tyler that Crosby and O.V should even be mentioned period.

I will say this and then im done until the draft. Hall has played at a high level and been a winner everywhere he has played.

It will be a huge risk and mistake for the Edm Oilers to go ahead and draft Seguin based on 1 good season in the OHL where he had to fight for the tying point in his last game while Hall was resting up for the playoffs having also played 6 less games.

We all saw what happened when Hall went against Seguin in the playoffs.

Hall is still playing while Seguin is picking his nose.

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#46 OilFan
April 20 2010, 08:43PM
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I take Crosby and Seguin and Towes. Good read Jason.

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#47 MrCondor
April 20 2010, 09:10PM
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Crash wrote:

I'm not really sure...I don't think he's ever been injured because of it so I'm not so certain he actually makes a habit of getting caught with his head down....but I guess if his game is to work corners and drive the net he is more likely to encounter physical play...

I'm more concerned that the Oilers don't have enough guys who play this way and this is the way that you need to play in today's NHL in order to win...that has been made especially evident in this years playoffs with traffic in front of the net being the order of the day...

Oiler's need grit. Agree 100% I don't know if the #1 overall draft pick is the place to look for it. I'd rather use one of our multiple 2nd and 3rd rounders (hopefully we get more) for the grit hunt.

Hall's gritty play actually concerns me. I have the exact same concern for OV. I'll be surprised if OV makes it through his contract without significant time on the IR.

Speed, grit, and long career are terms I don't think go well together. Add in a tendancy to put your head down I believe there is a risk in Hall.

That's my major concern for Hall.

What is your major concern for Seguin?

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#48 quicksilver ballet
April 20 2010, 09:28PM
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If i have to choose just one of these kids i'd bank on Hall but i'd give up most anything off this years roster to have a shot at both of these kids. We would be fine to let Seguin play another year in the O. We could really benefit having a top three dp next year as well. Three top three picks inside of two years would just about do it considering the help thats on the way already.

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#49 MrCondor
April 20 2010, 09:36PM
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We will draft Hall or Seguin. That's a given.

Are there other prospects that the Oilers are really gunning for? Some one that will cause us to make a big move for another high draft pick?*

Given the Blue's depth, trading for their #14 doesn't seem like it would be unrealistic

*Not named Hall or Seguin

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#50 Team Hall
April 20 2010, 09:40PM
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David S wrote:

Actually, some of us don't really care because its a no-lose situation. Both Robin and Jason are leaning to Seguin so that's good enough for me. The only guys debating this stuff to no end 12 hours a day must either have the best job in the world or no job at all.

Oh, sorry, I thought this was a debate forum. What? It is? I guess I don't have to close my eyes and follow the masses then, I can formulate mye own opinion. Wow, that was liberating. Draft Hall or drop the ball.

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