Trade Talk

Lowetide
August 20 2010 05:56PM

Peter Adler cut through the doldrums of summer like a hot knife through butter last night. An actual trade rumor involving the Edmonton Oilers. Music!

Adler's article is here. When I read it last night I decided to ignore it, as if looking away would somehow make it come true (watched pot and all that). This morning, I read it again and noticed that Spector's picked it up (adding to the credibility: EJ and Spector's are actual places where you can read things that have a snowball's chance in hell of coming true) which is always a good sign.

Late this afternoon (after a hard day's work--my business picks up this time of year) I allowed myself a look at capgeek to see if "The Who By Numbers" would give me a clue:

  • Oilers: Souray (5.4M cap hit times 2); Cogliano (RFA, 1.113M a year ago) TOTAL: 6.513M
  • Caps: Fleischmann (2.6M times 1); Nylander (4.875M times 1) TOTAL: 7.475M

Not bad. Not bad at all. Add a pick and we'll take Nylander's wife! Then I'm reminded that those damn Canucks are involved (freaking Canucks, get your own rumor) with Kevin Bieksa:

  • Oilers: Souray (5.4M cap hit times 2) Cogliano (RFA, 1.113M a year ago) TOTAL: 6.513M
  • Caps: Fleischmann (2.6M times 1); Nylander (4.875M times 1), 2nd rd pick TOTAL: 7.475M
  • Canucks: Bieksa (3.75M times 1) TOTAL: 3.75M

Oilers get Bieksa and Nylander (plus 2nd for taking Nylander family), Canucks get Fleischmann, Caps get Souray and Cogliano.

OILER BENEFITS: Offload the Fonz (as named by Bob Stauffer earlier today) and get back an NHL calibre defenseman with one year left on his contract. Also receive Nylander, for which a nice draft pick should be included. More free dollars next summer, but Mr. Katz won't be able to rotate the tires on the Batmobile this winter.

CANUCKS BENEFITS: Make room for Willie Mitchell by sending away Bieksa (they'll need to IR Salo and make sure his household receives everything Ron Popiel ever offered) and get back a nice piece up front. More moves to come, but it makes Vancouver better overall and they do save $1.15M on this deal.

CAPS BENEFIT: Offload Nylander ("getting rid of the Albatross, sowing the seeds of discontent!") and Fleischmann for a nice tough defenseman with a leather jacket and maybe someone who can help up front in Cogliano. They also save some money (about 1M) depending on how much Andrew C. wants for his next contract.

Possible? Probably not. A nice dream? You bet.

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Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on TSN 1260.
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#51 Harlie
August 21 2010, 11:24AM
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Lowetide wrote:

Fricking Johnny Rotten. Last time I quote him.

this is what came to my mind first..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvxALFWvHs

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#52 Harlie
August 21 2010, 11:25AM
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Lowetide wrote:

Fricking Johnny Rotten. Last time I quote him.

this is what came to my mind first..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvxALFWvHs

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#53 Dodd
August 21 2010, 11:33AM
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Crackenbury wrote:

You seem to have forgotten last springs comments from Souray. You don't roast your teams management in public for any reason while still being paid by them. Souray was already untradeable before then, he just made it worse if that's possible. The crap he was spewing about being forced to play was ridiculous.

Agreed. No matter how you felt about Souray in the past (yes bandwagons for and against) it is my strong opinion that $5 mill a year should at least buy a players public silence when he has a problem with management. No matter how you look at it he flushed himself more than he did the team.

This has nothing to do with the fickle fan syndrome; this is his defining moment in the league.

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#54 Crackenbury
August 21 2010, 11:43AM
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@Racki

I guess a fans reaction to Souray is dependent on how much you know about the situation. I knew about Souray's request for a trade prior to the start of last season and the efforts the Oilers made to trade him. With his contract and susceptibility to injury he is virtually untradeable. For him to blast the Oilers in public for not trading him was very poor on his part and that is why fans turned on him.

Fans are tired of signing impact players to long term contracts in good faith only to be told the player wants out because either his wife doesn't like it here or he wants to play closer to his family. For a lot of years players were treated poorly by their teams. It seems as though it's now teams and fans that are treated poorly by the players. This seems to be a summer of turning that trend around.

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#55 The Boss
August 21 2010, 12:03PM
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I was excited to see Souray come in the original instance. He was a "local boy" wanted to be here, and might want to stay. Apparently money talks to the unemployed, overgrown boys who play hockey. I miss the days when gentlemen played hockey. Gretzky, Kurri, Espo, and others that wanted to take thier place in the community. Sheldon you are a grown man, you are responsible for your actions and attitudes, start showing some class and be quiet.

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#56 Crackenbury
August 21 2010, 12:22PM
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@The Boss

Bang-on. The players you refer to are out there. It was refreshing to hear Taylor Hall say all the right things before and after being drafted. Playing in Edmonton on a winning team is a great place to be for any player whose main priority is hockey.

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#57 Quicksilver ballet
August 21 2010, 12:37PM
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The Alexander Semin thing, have the Capitals soured on him, did he have an off year or does he have an attitude problem?

A year or two ago 20+ clubs would've loved to have him on their roster, thought he would've made a good Oiler but maybe thats changed?

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#58 RossCreekNation
August 21 2010, 12:45PM
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I'll pose the question:

Who here would sacrifice Hemsky for Semin straight up if Semin had a 2-4 year extension at the 6M he makes now?

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#59 Maggie the Monkey
August 21 2010, 12:49PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

Washington doesn't gain any cap space by dealing Nylander... he DOESN'T count against their cap. Therefore, if they are going to add much salary, they need to dump somebody else that actually creates them some cap space.

If its just a matter of them saying "here, you pay this guy to F off insted of us" then sure - BUT either way Nylander isn't going to count against either teams salary cap (unless he's actually playing for them).

To add Sheldon Souray, they'd likely want to dump a bigger cap hit than just Fleischman (not to mention get more than just Souray). Nylander doesn't accomplish this.

Unless Washington is operating on budgetary restrictions, not salary cap restrictions. I know that I've read this somewhere but can't find the source right now. If this is the case then the proposed deal makes much more sense: Washington lowers their actual payroll while acquiring a player who - if healthy and playing to his potential - better suits their needs.

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#60 Quicksilver ballet
August 21 2010, 01:00PM
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I would do the Semin for Hemsky deal, i prefer to have him here before that extension is signed though. We may be better off to see how the marriage works before committing to him longer term. If it works well and he appears happy then try and extend him after this is established, if he is satisfied here then perhaps he takes 5 per on a multi year deal. Both Hemsky and Penner appear as though neither will re-sign here.....in a few months they'll both be in the same situation Kaberle's in. Something should be done shortly so they may be more than just a rental player for their new team.

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#61 @NateInVegas
August 21 2010, 01:15PM
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Souray's accuracy and shot selection is concerning.

No sense bringing him back for him to take out Hall, Eberle, & co.

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#62 Cheesenaka
August 21 2010, 01:16PM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

I would do the Semin for Hemsky deal, i prefer to have him here before that extension is signed though. We may be better off to see how the marriage works before committing to him longer term. If it works well and he appears happy then try and extend him after this is established, if he is satisfied here then perhaps he takes 5 per on a multi year deal. Both Hemsky and Penner appear as though neither will re-sign here.....in a few months they'll both be in the same situation Kaberle's in. Something should be done shortly so they may be more than just a rental player for their new team.

I disagree. What makes you think that Semin won't just test free agency at the end of this season? If we were to make the deal without an extension in place we could lose Hemsky for a 1 year rental.

I'm purely speculating here, but I would think we would have a greater chance of extending either Penner or Hemsky vs extending Semin. Penner and Hemsky at least have ties to the city.

While as you suggested we could be in a similar situation with Penner and/or Hemsky coming up, surely there are better options out there in regards to deals.

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#63 Cheesenaka
August 21 2010, 01:18PM
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@NateInVegas wrote:

Souray's accuracy and shot selection is concerning.

No sense bringing him back for him to take out Hall, Eberle, & co.

Oilers Training Cap 101 with Sheldon Souray - Duck and Cover.

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#64 bam83
August 21 2010, 01:26PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

I'll pose the question:

Who here would sacrifice Hemsky for Semin straight up if Semin had a 2-4 year extension at the 6M he makes now?

I would do it. 40 goal scorer... 80 point guy. I love Hemsky but unless he'll resign a decent long term contract Semin would be better for the team.

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#65 Blue Blooded
August 21 2010, 01:45PM
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I would imagine this year, that the kids will get moved around and tried in different positions. Which ever of them that is playing with Hemsky will be racking up the points. In other words, with the new talent coming up this year, Hemsky is going to RACK UP THE POINTS. He's in his prime right now. I'm calling a career year for Hemmer, and all you fools talking about trading him vs extending his contract, will be crying whenever someone mentions the possibility. KEEP HEMSKY IN EDMONTON STEVE!

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#66 madjam
August 21 2010, 04:21PM
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Dodd wrote:

Agreed. No matter how you felt about Souray in the past (yes bandwagons for and against) it is my strong opinion that $5 mill a year should at least buy a players public silence when he has a problem with management. No matter how you look at it he flushed himself more than he did the team.

This has nothing to do with the fickle fan syndrome; this is his defining moment in the league.

You obviously don't believe in freedom of speech ? You obviously believe in gag orders and media silencing as well? What undemocratic country taught you , anyways ? What does money have to do with breaking every citizens rights to begin with ? Wake up , we live in a democracy here with rights for all , not just whom you might choose .

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#67 Cheesenaka
August 21 2010, 05:27PM
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madjam wrote:

You obviously don't believe in freedom of speech ? You obviously believe in gag orders and media silencing as well? What undemocratic country taught you , anyways ? What does money have to do with breaking every citizens rights to begin with ? Wake up , we live in a democracy here with rights for all , not just whom you might choose .

I think he's more than likely meaning that a professional making $5 mill a year should have more tact and maturity than airing their dirty laundry to the press. If Sheldon had concerns over being pressured to play injured, those are concerns he should have taken to the player's union at that time. There were far better ways to accomplish his end goal of getting traded. In this case where an emotional Sheldon was speaking out it actually somewhat hindered both sides. The Oilers had a difficult time trying to move an over-priced, frequently injured, reckless player without having to add "disgruntled" to the equation.

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#68 RossCreekNation
August 21 2010, 05:34PM
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Maggie the Monkey wrote:

Unless Washington is operating on budgetary restrictions, not salary cap restrictions. I know that I've read this somewhere but can't find the source right now. If this is the case then the proposed deal makes much more sense: Washington lowers their actual payroll while acquiring a player who - if healthy and playing to his potential - better suits their needs.

But they'd still have to open up cap space to add Souray... trading Nylander doesn't do that.

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#69 Crash
August 21 2010, 05:34PM
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bam83 wrote:

I would do it. 40 goal scorer... 80 point guy. I love Hemsky but unless he'll resign a decent long term contract Semin would be better for the team.

What do you think Hemsky would get playing with Ovechkin and that bunch in Wash....I'm betting at least an 80pt guy if not more...Does Semin get 40 goals and 80 pts playing with the bunch that Hemsky has had to play with? Why does everyone always think that an 80 pt guy coming from another offensive powerhouse team equates to an 80 pt guy here?

Trading for Russians in today's NHL is just asking for you to lose the player to the KHL...

NO to Semin for Hemsky...yes to extending Hemsky for another 5 or 6 yrs.

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#70 THEBIGD
August 21 2010, 09:55PM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

I would do the Semin for Hemsky deal, i prefer to have him here before that extension is signed though. We may be better off to see how the marriage works before committing to him longer term. If it works well and he appears happy then try and extend him after this is established, if he is satisfied here then perhaps he takes 5 per on a multi year deal. Both Hemsky and Penner appear as though neither will re-sign here.....in a few months they'll both be in the same situation Kaberle's in. Something should be done shortly so they may be more than just a rental player for their new team.

I can't stand Hemsky if we could trade him strait up I would drive him to the airport myself.As he is not a superstar let alone a star God make this dream come true and trade him while you still can.As they are always trying to find someone to play with Hemsky but wake up Oilers can you not see maybe Hemsky is the problem? I would agree he is. Cheers

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#71 9 Inches Uncut
August 21 2010, 10:34PM
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THEBIGD wrote:

I can't stand Hemsky if we could trade him strait up I would drive him to the airport myself.As he is not a superstar let alone a star God make this dream come true and trade him while you still can.As they are always trying to find someone to play with Hemsky but wake up Oilers can you not see maybe Hemsky is the problem? I would agree he is. Cheers

If I had to do a visual of this post I would put a turd on a plate.

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#72 Archaeologuy
August 21 2010, 10:38PM
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THEBIGD wrote:

I can't stand Hemsky if we could trade him strait up I would drive him to the airport myself.As he is not a superstar let alone a star God make this dream come true and trade him while you still can.As they are always trying to find someone to play with Hemsky but wake up Oilers can you not see maybe Hemsky is the problem? I would agree he is. Cheers

I think the Oilers probably realize that a point per game player under contract at a reasonable price is a great asset.As he is the best player on the team they probably dont want to trade him and they likely wont trade him based solely on the opinion of someone who thinks that having talented players is a problem.As the Oilers just watched their offense get decimated without the guy I bet they wake up and recognize that he is the driving force of the Oilers offense wake up Oilers can you not see that Hemsky is the key? I would agree he is. Cheers.

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#73 KenL
August 22 2010, 08:27AM
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Off loading Souray and picking up Fleishmann = good thing. Picking up Nylander and his whiney ball and chain - terrible idea.

Why would we want another Pronger situation. Unless the Oilers can flip Nylander and get picks elsewhere, can't do this deal.

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#74 madjam
August 22 2010, 08:59AM
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SPIN OFF ECONOMICS 101 . I suppose i should be thankfull the Oilers entertainment package has been less than what i would pay for a good seat for seasons tickets . Couple that with the savings from my wife as well , and we should have a very tidy sum to early retirement giving us an excess of 680.00 /month to add to our pensionable income over next five years .

$3,000 /person invested in R.S.P each year , adding tax break at 1/3 rd totalling a $4,000/person investment per year over 5 years = $20,000/person over 5 years . Times that by two season tickets and thats a nice tidy sum of $40,000 . Now add a paltry 2 % on that investment for accrued interest and you have $ 40,800 . Thats more than you'll get for taking out CPP at age 60 . Thanks for bridge Oilers, and allowing us the space and capital to retire five years earlier than planned .

Now as you can probably see , that pays for a nice holiday every 4 months if we choose a 4 month useage at $2,720 over next five years .

So i suppose the longer the Oilers ice a bad product on the ice the more beneficial it can/will be for those unaffluent and financially strapped people that can't really afford season tickets , or choose other options entertainment wise , etc.. Still allows money to go to odd game as well, and there is always tv of course .

There is a silver lining with the Oilers running a poor product as you can see .

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#75 Dodd
August 22 2010, 09:39AM
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madjam wrote:

You obviously don't believe in freedom of speech ? You obviously believe in gag orders and media silencing as well? What undemocratic country taught you , anyways ? What does money have to do with breaking every citizens rights to begin with ? Wake up , we live in a democracy here with rights for all , not just whom you might choose .

Have you ever worked somewhere that "policy" was to wear a tie? Did you storm out of there because of their communist treatment of you? No, chances are you did what the company asked of you in order to get your paycheck and not lose your job.

For anyone to suggest that company policy is "undemocratic" because they would expect a player making $5mill to abide by it is an unrealistic fool.

Now put your unconstitutional tie on and get to that human-rights-squashing job.

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#76 madjam
August 22 2010, 11:09AM
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Dodd wrote:

Have you ever worked somewhere that "policy" was to wear a tie? Did you storm out of there because of their communist treatment of you? No, chances are you did what the company asked of you in order to get your paycheck and not lose your job.

For anyone to suggest that company policy is "undemocratic" because they would expect a player making $5mill to abide by it is an unrealistic fool.

Now put your unconstitutional tie on and get to that human-rights-squashing job.

I worked in many aspects where suits and ties were appropreiate attire . What i did not do was allow power trips or those above me to intimidate me so that they might try to take away from freedom of speech, etc. no matter whom it was . I use tact in doing so knowing full well what my actions might involk/ ramifications if done otherwise . I've challenged many beyond not just the workplace , locally , unions , management , provincially ,federally and yes internationally at the highest levels . Never lost a paycheck or job because of it either .

You want respect you earn it , and you don't earn the respect of those above you by allowing them to trample on you and your rights .

CBA allows players the right to break contracts ? Then the players right to chastise them is also probably part of their contracts i suspect. Unless they have an article in contract to have them sign that right away - which i very much doubt .

Almost 25 % of employees will challenge those above them . Most of that category ends up being most of the new management most corporations seek out for advancement, and most productive and respected personnel they have ! That group is where most of their leaders are from . I've been on both sides of ledger .

I don't hold anyone in high regard when they try to put a gag order on, and use abusive power tripping to try and procur it . If players and contract allow that sort of abuse of power , i'd be very surprised !

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#77 Dodd
August 22 2010, 02:03PM
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madjam wrote:

I worked in many aspects where suits and ties were appropreiate attire . What i did not do was allow power trips or those above me to intimidate me so that they might try to take away from freedom of speech, etc. no matter whom it was . I use tact in doing so knowing full well what my actions might involk/ ramifications if done otherwise . I've challenged many beyond not just the workplace , locally , unions , management , provincially ,federally and yes internationally at the highest levels . Never lost a paycheck or job because of it either .

You want respect you earn it , and you don't earn the respect of those above you by allowing them to trample on you and your rights .

CBA allows players the right to break contracts ? Then the players right to chastise them is also probably part of their contracts i suspect. Unless they have an article in contract to have them sign that right away - which i very much doubt .

Almost 25 % of employees will challenge those above them . Most of that category ends up being most of the new management most corporations seek out for advancement, and most productive and respected personnel they have ! That group is where most of their leaders are from . I've been on both sides of ledger .

I don't hold anyone in high regard when they try to put a gag order on, and use abusive power tripping to try and procur it . If players and contract allow that sort of abuse of power , i'd be very surprised !

I don't think I ever suggested that challenging those above you is grounds to allow abuse of authority; or even that it is wrong...like many here I'm suggesting that the public method Souray used is really crappy conduct for his $5mill a year. If a CEO calls a press conference to throw his company under the bus, does that maybe defy some of the company line he is publicly expected to tow for his big cheque?

Is it asking too much to expect an NHL player to keep his negativity between himself, his agent, the NHLPA and the team? I didn't think this warranted a freedom of speech in the workplace discussion you have turned this into.

If you're Tambellini, and Souray (who didn't show up for his end-of-season interview in '09 and by all accounts asked for a trade soon after) is mad that you're not giving him the attention that you give players who WANT to stay, what would you do? Would you call your injured player who wants out to see how things are going? Or is he on the phone trying to get rid of the guy?

I don't think a "gag order" as you say was put into place or is warranted here, but if you have a problem with your employer, calling a press conference about it is about the dumbest way to solve it. You just separated yourself from Souray when you said you use tact when solving work issues. $5mill/ year doesn't buy you any tact or privacy, I guess.

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#78 Ball Buster
August 23 2010, 09:20AM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

Washington doesn't gain any cap space by dealing Nylander... he DOESN'T count against their cap. Therefore, if they are going to add much salary, they need to dump somebody else that actually creates them some cap space.

If its just a matter of them saying "here, you pay this guy to F off insted of us" then sure - BUT either way Nylander isn't going to count against either teams salary cap (unless he's actually playing for them).

To add Sheldon Souray, they'd likely want to dump a bigger cap hit than just Fleischman (not to mention get more than just Souray). Nylander doesn't accomplish this.

The proposed trade in Lowetide's post works for all three teams on a cap basis.

No additional bodies need to be moved.

Show me otherwise.

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#79 RossCreekNation
August 23 2010, 10:16AM
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@Ball Buster

WSH loses 2.6M (Fleischman) in cap hit and adds 5.4M (Souray) + 1.25ish (Cogliano) = WSH adding $4.05M in this deal.

My point is, they'd probably prefer moving an actaul salary that counts against their cap (Chimera?) to bring that number (4.05) down.

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#80 Ball Buster
August 23 2010, 10:21AM
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@RossCreekNation

Right, I saw that as well but my point is that the $$$ work for all sides as the trade proposal stands. No tinkering required.

Not that it matters because McPhee can't possibly be that dense.

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#81 RossCreekNation
August 23 2010, 10:37AM
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@Ball Buster

Last I saw at Capgeek, the Capitals had 3M ish in cap room... today it says 5.3M in space, but I see Eric Belanger's name has been removed (is that deal not official yet?). So, once you add his supposed 1.8M contract, they'd be sitting with 3.5M in space making the possibility of adding 4.05M unreasonable. Throw Chimera in that deal instead, then they could probably take on the extra 2M (Souray & Cogliano).

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#82 Ball Buster
August 23 2010, 11:25AM
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@RossCreekNation

And maybe nhlnumbers.com isn't accurate but on their site, the Caps have $260K in cap space with both Nylander and Belanger on the count.

Take away Fleischmann and Nylander, add back in Cogliano and Souray. The deal works however, just barely and only if Cogliano signs for reasonable money (i.e. less than $2.0MM)

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#83 Richie Daggers Crime
August 23 2010, 12:19PM
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Bonus points for the PiL reference.

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#84 commentator
August 23 2010, 12:34PM
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The question I have is: how desperate are the Oilers to unload Souray? We've been down the Nylander trade-discussion road before, with everybody left with a bad taste in their mouths. If Michael Nylander a few years ago didn't want to come to Edmonton, what's to say he's any more interested now? His skills are unlikely to have improved with age and now Washington clearly doesn't want him.

Incidentally, why does everyone think that Kevin Bieksa is so great? While a capable defenceman, his statistics are no doubt bolstered by having Roberto Luongo in goal (well, maybe not play-off statistics). There seems, in many national media circles, to be a bit of a love fest with all of the players on Toronto and/or Vancouver (aka Toronto West).

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