What we can learn from the Detroit Wheels (Vol 1)

Lowetide
October 11 2011 02:07PM

When it comes to putting together a competitive NHL team year after year, the Detroit Red Wings are the league's gold standard. How DO they do it? Minor league system? Free agents? Luck? Mike Ilitch knows Sam Pollock's ghost? ALL of the above? Let's have a look.

BOTTOM FEEDER

As a kid, I felt sorry for the Detroit Red Wings. All of their players were old and grey, and the few young ones weren't very good. The Red Wings went years and years as also-rans, and their franchise players were men like Nick Libett (#14 in photo) and Jim Rutherford, an average goaltender. Slowly but surely they dug themselves out of the wreckage, and when John Ogrodnick began popping 40 goal seasons it looked like things were looking up.

The 1983 draft gave Detroit Yzerman and they drafted some good players in the 1980s, but the real turning point for the organization was the historic 1989 draft. Nicklas Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov and others helped form the heart of the Red Wings team that would romp from the late 1990's through this day. Perhaps Oiler fans will one day look back on the 2010 entry draft in the same way.

BUILDING THE PERFECT BEAST

In the next couple of weeks, I'm going to look at the Detroit and Edmonton drafts and minor league teams in 5-year increments. I'm looking for clues about what Detroit has done right all along, what Edmonton has done wrong and perhaps create a template for us to follow as the team rebuilds.

Detroit's Farm 1997 to 2002

  1. Did they have hugely successful farm teams? Not really, they weren't powerhouse teams. The Wings during the five year period did not enjoy a deep playoff run.
  2. Who were their best AHL players? Young prospects they'd acquired through various means along with AHL veterans of quality. Red Wings didn't ignore the their minor league system but it wasn't filled with first rounders either.
  3. How did you establish the criteria for prospects who became NHL players? I used 200 NHL games as an entry to "actual NHL player" so some of the first round picks fell well below that (which is typical of any organization).
  4. During these 5 years, which players (and player type) reached that level? AHL role players, mostly signed as free agents. Jiri Fischer stands alone in this group as a first round selection who spent some time in the AHL after turning pro before becoming an NHL player.
  5. Aside from Fischer, which drafted players also played in the AHL and then had 200+ NHL games? None. ALL of the other kids who managed both AHL careers and then 200+ NHL games were free agents. They are Shane Hnidy, Stacy Roest, Jason Williams and Sean Avery. All were signed either as free agents after playing out their junior careers or signed as free agents after their original NHL club gave up on them.
  6. Is that a large number of players with no pedigree to have NHL careers? I don't know. Seems high, but there's never been any articles (that I've seen) about the subject. I think we can probably assume the Red Wings were really good at identifying undrafted talent. They didn't have a lot of high picks so would need to draft in later rounds. Signing these kids would have been insurance.
  7. Did they have a lot of turnover at the coaching position? Yes, I was a little surprised but the Wings had a lot of turnover during this five year period. At Adirondack Glenn Merkosky coached for two losing seasons and then Moe Mantha coached another losing season when they moved to Cincinatti. For part of their time there it was a shared team (with Anaheim) and there was a huge spike in wins when Mike Babcock arrived as coach. He coached the final two seasons in the group we're looking at today.
  8. What happened to all those draft picks once they arrived in the AHL? Well, in the years 1995-1999 (I used those seasons because someone drafted in 1995 would turn pro in 1997, thus giving us a 5-year window for their minor league career) Detroit selected 44 players. Of the 44 drafted. 13 made the NHL.If we go back two years earlier, we can add Mathieu Dandenault, Tomas Holmstrom and Anders Eriksson. Detroit's kids play a lot of hockey before NHL arrival, and that appears to be a long standing tradition.
  9. How many first round failures did they have? Failure is a strong word, but Maxim Kuznetsov and Jesse Wallin were first round picks who fell short of the 200 game mark in the NHL. Both played in the NHL, though.
  10. Who were the best draft picks from the years 1995 to 1999? Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk.
  11. And they went straight to the NHL without going to the minors? Well, not really. Detroit kept them home, making sure they played in Russia (Datsyuk) and Sweden (Zetterberg).
  12. Did they come right to the NHL at 20? No. Zetterberg was 21 and Datsyuk was 23.
  13. So they waited until the two players were NHL ready? Yes, it would appear so.
  14. Anything else? Yes. I think it's important to make two points. During these seasons, Detroit didn't have many NHL jobs available, so bringing these kids over made little sense if they were productive and developing in their home country. Edmonton didn't have (and doesn't have) that kind of luxury, so that's one area we can look at for the future.
  15. And? Detroit used other NHL teams as their development team. The Red Wings have been an attractive destination for decades now, and that means lots of competition for NHL jobs. So, when a prospect like Mike Knuble arrives, not only does he have to beat out emerging Wings players like Tomas Holmstrom and Stacy Roest, he also must survive the annual addition of several free agents. Not all of them are July 1st UFAs---Detroit has gotten tremendous mileage out of men like Daniel Cleary--and that speaks to a tremendous pro scouting department.
  16. So Detroit's AHL team has competition from other areas for NHL jobs? Right. It might not explain Jesse Wallin not having an NHL career, but certainly explains the delay in Mike Knuble arriving as an NHL player. And I think we have to really focus on their pro scouting department; we could call it the "Kris Draper procurement department." Lots of talent coming in each season for little return.
  17. How many veteran free agents did Detroit's kids have to endure? Let's take summer 1998 as an example: Slava Fetisov reires, Bob Rouse moves on to San Jose. Young Jesse Wallin arrives at camp with Lidstrom, Larry Murphy, Anders Eriksson and Jamie Macoun (acquired at the 97-98 deadline) assured of jobs, plus Detroit signed Uwe Krupp as a free agent that summer. Injuries impact the team, but Dandenault can play defense and Aaron Ward is ahead of Wallin. So Jesse Wallin is down in the minors all year and oh by the way they claim Todd Gill on waivers at Christmas and at the deadline Detroit acquires Chris Chelios and Ulf Samuelsson. Lordy.
  18. So the AHL team is just one source of callups? Detroit's minor league team--in  a real way--was the rest of the NHL at this point. They weren't about developing Jesse Wallin, they were about adding veteran NHLers and winning another Stanley. If Wallin had developed ahead of Ward, then Detroit might have lost Ward to expansion but all of their eggs were not in one basket. Detroit shops the world. 

EDMONTON OILERS

Edmonton's Farm 1997 to 2002

  1. Did they have hugely successful farm teams? Yes. During the five year period we're looking at, the Hamilton Bulldogs got to the third round once and the second round three times. They missed the playoffs only once. .
  2. Who were their best AHL players? Bulldogs had a solid mix of established AHL veterans who could play and some fine young prospects. Daniel Cleary came over from Chicago and spent a year with the Bulldogs--seemed to turn his career around (at that time). I think anyone comparing Detroit and Edmonton's AHL teams during this era would conclude Edmonton had the stronger group in the AHL.
  3. How did you establish the criteria for prospects who became NHL players? I used 200 NHL games as an entry to "actual NHL player" so some of the first round picks fell well below that (which is typical of any organization).
  4. During these 5 years, which players (and player type) reached that level? A long list, much longer than Detroit's. From 1997 through 2002, Georges Laraque, Dan Lacouture, Scott Ferguson, Bryan Muir, Boyd Devereaux, Sean Brown, Dan Cleary, Tim Thomas (yes, that Tim Thomas), Jason Chimera, Shawn Horcoff, Fernando Pisani, Alexei Semenov, MA Bergeron, Ty Conklin and Jussi Markkanen all played in the minors and then hung around to play awhile in the NHL. I have adjusted for goalies a little. That's a variety of useful talent coming through the system.
  5. Which Oiler drafted players played in the AHL and then had 200+ NHL games? Laraque, Devereaux, Chimera, Horcoff, Pisani, Semenov. Markkanen was also drafted but not in the 95-99 time period.
  6. Is that a large number of players from the AHL to have NHL careers? Yes, I'd say that's a lot over a 5 year period. Some of these fellows turned into solid NHLers--I'd count Horcoff, Pisani and Chimera as being solid NHL players over a long period, and Laraque was very effective in his role for a lot of years. 
  7. Did they have a lot of turnover at the coaching position? About the same as Detroit/Anaheim. Lorne Molleken was coach in 97-98, followed by two seasons each for Walt Kyle and then Claude Jullien. They all kept on coaching so must have been doing something right. 
  8. What happened to all those draft picks once they arrived in the AHL? 1995-1999 (I used those seasons because someone drafted in 1995 would turn pro in 1997, thus giving us a 5-year window for their minor league career) Edmonton selected 47 players and 19 played in the NHL. Both numbers are greater than Detroit's (44 and 13) although Edmonton didn't select a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk.
  9. How many first round failures did they have? Six first round picks 95-99, all fail. They were Steve Kelly, Boyd Devereaux, Mathieu Descoteaux, Michel Riesen, Michael Henrich and Jani Rita. Those names certainly contributed to Barry Fraser being replaced. I do believe Jani Rita's development (he sat a long time) had an impact on his career. 
  10. Who were the best draft picks from the years 1995 to 1999? Horcoff, although Tom Poti, Fernando Pisani, Mike Comrie, Jason Chimera and Georges Laraque were also talented. There's some pretty good talent there, doesn't quite make up for the first round errors but certainly we need to give credit where due.
  11. How many draft picks went straight to the NHL without going to the minors? Poti and Comrie went straight from college/junior to the NHL, Horcoff spent very little time in the minors. The rest had minor league auditions.
  12. How many came right to the NHL at 20? Mike Comrie, but he kind of forced it. There were forces aside from NHL readiness at play (Comrie jumped college and spent time in junior, forcing EDM to sign him or lose Comrie to free agency).
  13. Anything else? A few things. First, the Oilers minor league teams delivered far more actual NHL players than Detroit (15 to 5) but I think a lot of that had to do with the Red Wings drawing from a deeper pool. Leaving their kids in Europe meant they didn't clog up the AHL team with their development (Tomas Holmstrom stayed in the SEL, played 6 AHL games). Also--and this will become an issue in future segments of this look at the two teams--the was no sense of rushing any of these kids. I'm trying very hard to remember the last Red Wing teenager who struggled over 82 games at the NHL level.
  14. And? The Oilers couldn't just bring in a plethora of free agents or pay dearly for Chris Chelios secure in the knowledge that signing him long term wouldn't be a problem. They were refining their team, whereas Edmonton was overhauling by the minute. Massive trades marked this era, a time when Edmonton was dealing Jason Arnott and Bo Mironov and Dean McAmmond and losing Curtis Joseph and others to free agency. They brought in some fine talent (Jason Smith, Bill Guerin, Ethan Moreau, Tommy Salo) but were losing ground a little each time. The AHL kids (like Laraque and Cleary, who was acquired from Chicago with Moreau) must have felt the Oilers were a great team to be dealt to at that time. Jobs, jobs and more jobs. And the Oilers did try, dealing for a Beranek here or a Falloon there, but honestly the pro scouts in Detroit had a simpler job: finish the masterpiece with subtle shades, as opposed to the broad brush strokes required in Edmonton.

 WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

I think we can suggest a few things and see if they make sense moving forward:

  1. The Oilers rely more heavily on their AHL team because (at least during the pre-cap era) free agency wasn't available to them in the same way it appealed to a team like Detroit.
  2. Detroit found a way to use minor free agency (the Draper group) in a way Edmonton and other bottom feeders were pehaps less able to do in this period. Although Edmonton did sign Rem Murray and MA Bergeron and Ty Conklin along the way, Detroit seemed better able to procure "plug and play" types like Draper (and in later years Daniel Cleary). How much that has to do with winning consistently is something we'll need to table until the Oilers are consistent winners, but I can say the 80s team used to acquire players more easily than lesser teams.
  3. Because of the availability of free agents (to Detroit), their draft picks and minor leaguers became less important to them. So, when we say Jesse Wallin was a draft fail and that Alexei Semenov is a draft success, we also need to acknowledge that Wallin may have been a better player than Semenov. The hill Wallin had to climb each fall was more difficult throughout his pro career, and that is reflected in our means of measurement (NHL career GP).
  4. Almost all of the really good players skip the AHL, That's a league for developing vital role players, former scorers who need to learn the finer points and embrace a new role on their team, or late developing goalies in need of more sorties before maturing.
  5. Developing kids in Europe is possible for Detroit, but they do things in a unique way. Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk, the stars of this study, did not come to North America on the first available airplane. Detroit appears to (I have no evidence) have found a home for each player to develop on a specific time line. That's a huge item, Oilers lost Jani Rita and one of the reasons might have been riding pine in the SM-Liiga. Oscar Klefbom is doing the same thing as we speak.
  6. Detroit traded an enormous number of 2nd through 4th rd picks during this era but didn't miss a beat. Why? The club did two things: drafted well in later rounds and signed both minor league free agents and graduating junior and college players. A lot of them.
  7. The Oilers had two #6 overall picks in the 5-year period we discussed, and missed on both of them. More than anything else, that kind of epic failure had an impact on the next decade. Barry Fraser was retired for good reason, and the Oilers should have done it in the early 1990s. The 2000s were payment for those horrible 90s draft failures in the first round (and huge errors at the top, including Kelly and Devereaux but also including Bonsignoreore a couple of years earlier). Edmonton should have had an enormous edge in finding gems because of draft position, but twice in the 5 seasons 95-99 Detroit walked off with the prize. Major impact on the franchise. Major.

ALSO.....

I'd also like to leave you with a quote found during the background work for this article. Contained in this Hockey's Future article from an unnamed author in 1999 summer comes the following quote:

  • Jim Nill, Detroit's head scout said: "We went for the home run…. we were looking for the next Pavol Demitra."

 Detroit would draft Henrik Zetterberg 210th overall that season, and the article describes why Detroit selected Z:

  • Henrik is a solid skater and puck handler but needs to get stronger ( no, this is not a broken record ). Detroit feels that while Zetterberg is not quite as talented as their other 1999 European selections, the organization has a wealth of muckers and grinders in the system and need an influx of talent even if it is in the form of a long shot.

Red Wings have been lucky at the draft table, no doubt. But luck, as they say, is the residue of hard work and that too appears to be a calling card for those Red Wings scouts. Amateur and pro.

Up next: The 2003-07 farm teams.

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
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#1 book¡e
October 11 2011, 05:35PM
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Shanahan just ruled that LT's posting of the Poodle Pose picture one day after agreeing not to post any pictures of women on ON was an egregious act of post-reflective pissonthatnoiseness and has fined him two Jill Hennesays and one one Scarjo. He noted that it did not rise to the level required for a Diane Lane.

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#2 Soft Hands McSteeley - FIST Movement
October 11 2011, 02:09PM
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RNH WITH HIS FIST GOAL IN THE FIST GAME = FISTIVOUS SEASON UPON US!!

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#3 book¡e
October 11 2011, 02:58PM
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I offended by your use of religious imagery in your post, I am also offended by your use of commercial logos, such as the logo of the Detroit red wings, and the presence of ice in one of your photos. Everyone knows that you should not use images containing ice as ice is offensive to many people.

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#4 Wanyes bastard child
October 11 2011, 03:49PM
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BOOBIES :)

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#5 Oilcruzer
October 11 2011, 05:27PM
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No supplementary discipline against 94.

All is well with the universe.

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#6 Soft Hands McSteeley - FIST Movement
October 11 2011, 05:20PM
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SrCain wrote:

And that has what to do with this article? An extremely lame FIRST comment.

When it involves RNH and FIST goal, you don't have to wait for someone to write an article about it (WHICH BY THE WAY SHOULD HAPPEN ALREADY)

The SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE is far too powerful

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#7 John Chambers
October 11 2011, 09:50PM
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I dunno, LT.

Excellent research as usual, but I think it's hard to ignore the huge economic advantage Detroit had during this time. Not only did they have a core in place, they had the $$$ to lock that core up and support them with the Wendel Clarks, Chris Chelios, and 70's pornstars Jamie McCoun and Bob Rouse.

To suggest the Oilers didn't scour the league for talent ignores Doug Weight, Curtis Joseph, Boris Mironov, Roman Hamrlik, Bill Guerin (mentioned), and Janne Niinimaa. If we had the money we would've been a wicked team crusading our way to multiple disappointing conference finals' if we kept those guys and added a few more FA's.

Smyth, Marchant, and Grier were home-grown, and had one of those #6 picks worked out I would almost call drafting and development for the era a success.

Love or hate Slats he managed to field competitive teams on a budget. If he had the money he would've eventually lured Bure, Lindros, and Jagr here and simultaneously eliminated winter.

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#9 etownman
October 11 2011, 09:05PM
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Long story short, the Wings entered the 90's a losing team. Oh, they had Yzerman, who was strictly an offenisve whiz at the time, but what they did is the same thing that New Jersey & other US weak sisters at the time did was raid strong 'small market' teams like the Oilers, Flames etc.

Acquiring players like Shanahan, Hull etc. for what amounted to strictly money is what built these teams. This is where players like Yzerman & Lidstrom became who they are with the type of players they were surrounded with.

But as teams like Detroit, Dallas, New Jersey, Colorado lose that type of leverage that they enjoyed through the 90's & up until the lockout you can see the decline & I truly expect the same in Detroit as Lidstrom & now Datsyuk & Zetterberg age. They just can't go out & buy, buy, buy to replace key cogs.

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#10 Romanus
October 11 2011, 11:13PM
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The Real Scuba Steve wrote:

Detroit didn't have to put up with a Kevin Lowe at the helm. An Oiler legend as a player, bad choice as a G.M.

Nobody complained in 2006.

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#11 VK63
October 11 2011, 03:07PM
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@book¡e

and poodles.... outrageous!!!

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#12 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
October 11 2011, 03:37PM
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Fantastic blog!

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#13 VK63
October 11 2011, 03:42PM
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@Lowetide

Indeed.

I made this query to Robin at the end of a blog last week... and ill pose it to you as well.

Do you think Babcock... (post the detroit coaching gig) would consider a gm position? Hes a western boy through and through and has strong ties to this province and city.

Further to that query, would Katz and the boys have the stones to hire a guy with that much street credit in the league. He does pose a formidable force and is far removed from the "boys on the bus" club.

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#14 SrCain
October 11 2011, 04:17PM
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Soft Hands McSteeley - FIST Movement wrote:

RNH WITH HIS FIST GOAL IN THE FIST GAME = FISTIVOUS SEASON UPON US!!

And that has what to do with this article? An extremely lame FIRST comment.

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#17 dougtheslug
October 11 2011, 06:33PM
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I'm not sure that Detroit's success can't be chalked up, in large measure, to circumstance and dumb luck. In 1998, for example, they drafted Ryan Burnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen, and Adam Deleeue (total NHLs games for that crew:2) before they drafted Datsyuk.I call that dumb luck. I think having lucked into a core of Datsyuk, Zetterburg and Lidstrom has a lot more to do with Detroits enduring success. They had a stellar core and thus were able to attract decent free agents looking for a Cup. A similar argument can be made about the Oilers of the mid 80's. Remember Barry Fraser and Glen Sather were Golden Boys who could do no wrong back then, having lucked into Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr,etc. How can we say it's luck? Well, as you aptly pointed out, 15 years of Fraser inspired draft futility, and Sather producing exactly nothing in New york for 11 years as GM. Check out Detroit's draft record over the past 10 years. Nothing special, certainly nothing to suggest a "system" that out performs other teams. And who remain their stars after all these years? Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom. And very little new talent.

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#18 Smokey
October 11 2011, 02:27PM
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Detroit has done a great job producing plug and play players, but there one retirement from mediocrity unless Hollands trades his entire farm club for Weber. Ive waited 20 years for Detroit to suck, and that day will come once Lidstrom retires.

Teams need superstars and the Oilers are one superstar on the backend from being the next great team. They will have to learn to develop useful pieces and sign quality free agents like Detroit. And a little luck hopefully with Datsyk or Zetterberg type would help too. Maybe Gernat and Marincin are those types. Only time will tell.

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#19 Oilogosphere.com
October 11 2011, 02:57PM
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I think Detroit will be on the down in the coming years. After departure of Lidstrom and aging Zetterberg and Datsyuk, is there really any fine talent coming up in the ranks?

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#20 Romulus' Apotheosis
October 11 2011, 03:04PM
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LT, thanks for the in depth analysis.

how do you think the chorney loss will effect OK? based on your last couple of articles, OK seems weak right now? are there enough AHL forwards lying around to grab a D?

competitiveness all through the organization! that's the goal of the rebuild right?

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#23 RexLibris
October 11 2011, 04:04PM
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Good read, LT. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. I can only hope that the Oilers management is studying comparable organizational traits as closely as this. It's the small details and the willingness to challenge accepted wisdom that can take a team from a championship to a dynasty. An example is what you wrote about Detroit using European development leagues to their advantage and giving their second-generation talented players time to develop behind top-end mentors. Hall and Eberle and RNH may be our version of Federov, Yzerman, and such and MBS's legacy may depend as much on what he does to support those players he picked with the next round of prospects at a (hopefully) weaker draft position.

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#24 They're $hittie
October 11 2011, 04:23PM
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How did Bill Mcdougal, and Dan Currie not make the NHL with numbers like that. Shuan Van allen had sick numbers and squeezed out an nhl career. AHL hall of fame I guess.

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#25 LAFOND-MANIA
October 11 2011, 04:29PM
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Great article! Look forward to the 03-07.

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#26 Dman09
October 11 2011, 05:03PM
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I don't know why they are making such a big deal out of Omark and practice. It is possible that Renny feels they need more of a physical presence going up against Minny and more defence. I think Renny will do this alot this season against teams that they need to be more physical and defensive in the bottom six. As a coach you need to recognize what players bring and when/how they can be useful especially in the bottom six.

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#27 HockeyNut98
October 11 2011, 05:08PM
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Wonder if the Oilers will wise up and try to get Klefbom to come and play in OKC. He'd get more playing time and they would help the OKC defense core (if he is as good as some have said).

Only wonder what that would do to their contract situation...

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#28 FastOil
October 11 2011, 05:29PM
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LT how do you feel drafted players should be handled at the AHL level. Hang on forever and hope a miracle occurs or move them after a good look if things aren't moving toward what the team was hoping for.

I think they should be moved before they lose all value. Try to acquire a different player and try again. I am thinking of Chorney going on waivers and guys like O'Marra and Plante. I might keep O and P if they wanted a career in the AHL, but I doubt many first rounders give up the dream easily.

I think there is a difference between development time and a bad fit. The Oilers want high tempo hockey and a guy like Plante is slow and more suited a team like the Devils.

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#29 Romulus' Apotheosis
October 11 2011, 05:37PM
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HockeyNut98 wrote:

Wonder if the Oilers will wise up and try to get Klefbom to come and play in OKC. He'd get more playing time and they would help the OKC defense core (if he is as good as some have said).

Only wonder what that would do to their contract situation...

I wonder about this too... but the case of Detroit maybe suggests keep him at home:

"11. And they went straight to the NHL without going to the minors? Well, not really. Detroit kept them home, making sure they played in Russia (Datsyuk) and Sweden (Zetterberg)."

Moreover, I'm not sure Klefbom is getting shafted on ice time. is this the case? would he really get more at OKC?

i have competing instincts: 1) keep him where he is among his elite euro-peers for long term development; 2) see the shiny new object in the flesh now! bring him to north america

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#30 Wanyes bastard child
October 11 2011, 05:42PM
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@book¡e

Well said.

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#32 Romulus' Apotheosis
October 11 2011, 05:45PM
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@book¡e

exactly!!

"i mean led zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked, they left that to the beegees"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz1kmGKDuUE

isn't allowing a comment section where people can rant about the content enough for the moral scolds?

this blog is more "black dog" than "how deep is your love" anyhow.

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#33 unca miltie
October 11 2011, 05:50PM
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book¡e wrote:

Shanahan just ruled that LT's posting of the Poodle Pose picture one day after agreeing not to post any pictures of women on ON was an egregious act of post-reflective pissonthatnoiseness and has fined him two Jill Hennesays and one one Scarjo. He noted that it did not rise to the level required for a Diane Lane.

I think the fine is excessive we should appeal to a higher authority.

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#34 The Real Scuba Steve
October 11 2011, 06:16PM
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Detroit didn't have to put up with a Kevin Lowe at the helm. An Oiler legend as a player, bad choice as a G.M.

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#35 Oilcruzer
October 11 2011, 06:56PM
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@dougtheslug

Good point. Or maybe Detroit's lower tier European scout was thrown a bone and he hit a home run, when given his one shot to make a late round pick.

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#36 Urganger
October 11 2011, 07:35PM
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I remember reading somewhere about a development/procurement route wherein instead of having players play in a higher quality league but with less minutes (e.g. AHL, 3rd line minutes), they play a lower league but with first/premium line minutes (e.g. WHL, 1st line). In an attempt to make them more well-rounded they'd also get time on the powerplay and penalty kill because the lower tier can allow for that. This system has some appeal to those that are looking for their prospects to play as much hockey as they can before they hit the NHL.

Any opinions on this route of development as a possible alternative to routes we're more familiar with?

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#37 knobert
October 11 2011, 08:17PM
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Jesse Wallin got injured, that is the source of his short career

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#38 common sense
October 11 2011, 08:25PM
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My memories of Detroit are when the Oilers of the Gretzky and Messier era would regularly beat them up with scores like 7-2 and we always beat them in the playoffs. I remember guys like Probert played pretty well and their diminuitive GM Jimmy Devellano was Mr.Loser in my books. As Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom decline and become insignificant then then team like their city will become a relic of the past in my prediction. Don't worry Oiler fans, the Oil are on their way up and the current Wings peaked several years ago and are on their big descent.

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#39 VK63
October 11 2011, 08:47PM
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@Lowetide

Indeed. well maybe he will take on the coaching job once these kids round into form. :-))

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#40 Lebowski
October 11 2011, 09:56PM
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LT: Keep up the great work with the pictures. They are one of the highlights in my day.

I believe I am one of the vast majority who enjoy and appreciate your superb taste.

I find johnk to be the one who is "laughable" and out of touch. Do NOT cave in to the prissiness.

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#41 james_dean
October 11 2011, 09:57PM
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@ common sense

detroit, nor edmonton will win a championship in the next 7 years

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#42 John Chambers
October 11 2011, 10:03PM
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@Urganger

It's amazing that NHL teams don't partner with European teams as a destination for some of their developing talent.

For example, a set of NHL teams could send some of their overage CHL'ers, college-seasoned, and European drafts to play together on a Swiss or Swedish team against professional adults. They would also all make better money than they would in the CHL or AHL ... or college.

Teams would have to negotiate the transfer issue, but I think the NHL is missing a huge marketing opportunity in Europe.

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#43 DSF
October 11 2011, 11:20PM
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If you really want to know what makes Detroit tick...watch what happens with Fabien Brunnstrom.

He's already been discarded by two NHL teams and I'll wager he turns into a player in Detroit.

The youngest player on their roster is Corey Emmerton at 23 yrs.

He's a rookie, a second round draft pick with 3 full years in the AHL.

That is the Detroit way.

The Oilers, in contrast have 7 players younger than Emmerton.

And, anyone who is predicting the Wings demise, just doesn't get it.

When Lidstrom is gone, they'll plug in a Shea Weber or Ryan Suter and just keep going.

Datsyuk and Zetterburg are sublime talents but you can count on Holland already having a succession plan in place.

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#44 Oilcruzer
October 11 2011, 11:41PM
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@DSF

Yes but...

...Didn't Chicago and Pittsburgh win with young stars? Doesn't NYR lose with older stars?

Detroit sucked before Bowman and Yzerman. Their system has had a great run since. It may continue forever. But it won't.

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#45 common sense
October 12 2011, 12:13AM
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John Chambers wrote:

I dunno, LT.

Excellent research as usual, but I think it's hard to ignore the huge economic advantage Detroit had during this time. Not only did they have a core in place, they had the $$$ to lock that core up and support them with the Wendel Clarks, Chris Chelios, and 70's pornstars Jamie McCoun and Bob Rouse.

To suggest the Oilers didn't scour the league for talent ignores Doug Weight, Curtis Joseph, Boris Mironov, Roman Hamrlik, Bill Guerin (mentioned), and Janne Niinimaa. If we had the money we would've been a wicked team crusading our way to multiple disappointing conference finals' if we kept those guys and added a few more FA's.

Smyth, Marchant, and Grier were home-grown, and had one of those #6 picks worked out I would almost call drafting and development for the era a success.

Love or hate Slats he managed to field competitive teams on a budget. If he had the money he would've eventually lured Bure, Lindros, and Jagr here and simultaneously eliminated winter.

Mr.Cisco, you are right on. The natural corollary to this is that the Oilers could have extended their dynasty if the high Canadian dollar and the current CBA cap were in place back in the 80s. Yeah the Wings lucked out picking Zetterberg and Datsyuk and Lidstrom but the Oilers got pretty lucking getting Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Fuhr, Coffey, etc. I don't think that Holland and Co are that great a geniuses. All these things go in cycles. Look at the Islanders in the 70s. My hope is that we are seeing the birth of an Oilers revival and the Canadian dollar and the CBA cap may just allow that to happen. We just need a decent GM.

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#47 j
October 12 2011, 08:27AM
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Lowetide wrote:

Except that Detroit has spent a generation in first place and has several Stanley's in the last 15 or so years.

Along with this "luck" the Red Wings have managed in getting Lidstrom, Z and Datsyuk, we also need to credit Slats with keeping Barry Fraser around to swing and miss at many drafts in the 90s.

I think we would all agree that the Oilers of the 80's would have continued to win for another 10 years if we could have kept Gretz and co. That is the difference. Detroit has been able to hold on to their stars until they felt the need to move them on (e.g. Fedorov). This is more a reflection of economics than luck/management skill. Unfortunately, the Oilers have had rookie management since the lock out and are just now finding their way. The next 5 years will be the watershed moment for this team.

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#48 DSF
October 12 2011, 09:21AM
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Oilcruzer wrote:

Yes but...

...Didn't Chicago and Pittsburgh win with young stars? Doesn't NYR lose with older stars?

Detroit sucked before Bowman and Yzerman. Their system has had a great run since. It may continue forever. But it won't.

Sure Chicago and Pittsburgh won a cup with young stars.

No one is asserting that Detroit winds the cup every year.

But you can count on them being competitive as surely as you can count on the sun rising.

You mention Bowman and Yzerman but you forgot to mention Holland, Nill and Devellano....the real brains behind the organization.

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#49 Showerhead
October 12 2011, 09:39AM
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LT: Great post and I look forward to more from the same vein. Back when I used to write relevant hockey material, I discussed the treatment of Datsyuk and Zetterberg a little bit here. It could be worth a look for more context as to how those two stars were brought up.

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#50 book¡e
October 12 2011, 09:41AM
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@Lowetide

Was Klefbom demoted from the SEL or was he never there?

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