SO, WHAT ABOUT SAM?
Robin Brownlee
November 16 2011 01:52PM
When Sam Gagner skated with the Edmonton Oilers at Millennium Place Tuesday, he did so on the fourth line. At Rexall Place today, Gagner didn't even take a twirl. Yet another speed bump in a season fans hoped would help define how and if Sam fits in the long-term plans.
The start of Gagner's fifth NHL season has been, to understate, a trying one as we approach the quarter-pole. The struggle continues with word from coach Tom Renney today Gagner has tweaked his back and is officially listed as being out day-to-day.
Having already missed six of the 17 games the Oilers have played because of a high-ankle sprain, Gagner returned from a six-game road trip with just two assists to show for the 11 games he's played.
Already passed on the depth chart by 18-year-old rookie Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and stuck behind Shawn Horcoff and Eric Belanger, Gagner's bounced between the right wing and his usual spot at centre. Tuesday, Renney had him at pivot with Ben Eager and Lennart Petrell. Now, this.
What to do with Sam?
TOUGH START
While the Gagner debate between backers and detractors often gets nonsensical -- he's portrayed by some as a future franchise cornerstone and by others as destined to become a draft day stiff -- he's an NHL player. The real question, what kind of NHL player? We don't have that answer.
After back-to-back seasons in which Gagner was limited to 68 games by injury, and points totals of 41 and 42, I counted myself among the group of people who felt Gagner needed to show us something this season that would clarify where he fits in the pecking order. I still feel that way.
With Gagner yet to duplicate the 49 points he tallied in 2007-08 as a rookie and with 28 games missed these past two seasons, my take has been that he needed to stay healthy and play something approaching a full season -- say, 78-82 games. Keep projections and what-if out of it.
That's likely not going to happen this season, even if this back issue proves to be minor and he's back in the line-up against Ottawa on Thursday and for a rematch with Chicago Saturday.
To this point, those of us hoping Gagner would provide some clarity have yet to see it. If anything, the big picture and Gagner's place in it, is less clear now than it was when training camp opened. A bad start. Another delay. More debate.
The prudent approach, as always, is patience. We already know that runs thin with a sizeable segment of Oiler fans. What I'm wondering is if that's becoming an issue with team management.
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@Romulus' Apotheosis
Gagner was the right call at 6th. Plante could have been worse. It could have been Cherapanov. And Nash was BS from the moment they called his name.
A lot of guys just have a hate on for Gagner and like to ignore the facts about the type of player he is and how much he actually produces.
Hindsight... ya-da-ya-da... but I'd much prefer one L. Couture at C for the Oil. Subban for Plante and Pacioretty for Nash.
[edit] maybe we can talk Mont. into a trade: plante for subban; pacioretty for nash. we've got draft pedigree on our side!!!
Haha I would let you.
Ok I get what your saying and I agree that we need to trade borderline prospects or players ie. Gagner, Peckham etc. It is just easier said then done and I wouldn't give up on Paajarvi or Lander, agreed guys can be had at UFA time but it just feels what your proposing is a continous rebuild cycle.
Some of you seem to think that splitting up a scoring line into 2 lines suddenly creates 2 scoring lines; it doesn't.
If a single player could make a line a scoring line, you'd see the top player with the 2 worst, the next best player with the 3rd and 4th worst, etc.
Breaking up the kids doesn't make sense. They thrive off each other and their similar style of play. They are almost a carbon copy of each other in a lot of ways and as soon as you take out a piece of that equation, the line starts to break down and becomes less effective.
The only time you'd think to break up a line like the kids is if you had a 'kid' type veteran player that brought something extra into the line to help them through a tough period. So far the only person we have that is anywhere near that type of player is Hemsky and even He, IMO, isn't up to the same caliber of fancy hand-magic as the kids are. I'd also argue that Hemsky doesn't display the same drive. He gives his fancy work a shot, tries to score a goal and if it fails, he sits back until the next opportunity. The kids, by contrast, fight non-stop - go go go go go.
@Romulus' Apotheosis
You were post #89, COINCIDENCE???....Yes, yes it is.
@Oilcan
Just feel we're not going anywhere till Hall and Hopkins take us there. Sell the farm to get these kids some help.
Yes, I'm one of those....you're ignoring the fact that the kids aren't scoring on the road...they are being shutdown...they are being checked to a near standstill while the Horcoff line spends its time trying to shutdown the opposition...
So as I mentioned before the Horcoff line is checking and the Kid Line is being checked....hence no secondary scoring which is the main reason this team is 27th in the league in offense....
The Horcoff line doesn't need talented scoring players in order to play a shutdown role which is what I think Horcoff does best. So remove Smyth and Hemsky from that line or at least remove Hemsky from that line and spread the offense amongst two other lines.
ie: Smyth/RNH/Hemsky, Hall/Gagner/Eberle, Jones/Horcoff/Petrell or PRV or Lander
Problem solved....2 scoring lines and 1 shutdown line. Hall and Eberle have become a good tandem....It doesn't matter who you put in between those two.
Other team has to decide who they're going to put their top checkers against...RNH line or Hall line
But I'm still so young... don't give up on me yet guys... just give me a chance! I'll turn it around, I promise.
Geez... you make one bad comment here, one bad comment there and the FIST thing you know everyone treats you like you're Cory Cross!
you know what the worst part is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd0erNx6rWw
Fine... If you guys want to trade me to another nation, you better start giving me top 6 props and some decent responses to boost my value, otherwise you'll just get some flamer in return...
Seems to me that the Oilers have skipped a level on the way to finish rebuilding, but many of our players need that level to finish developing.
It's all fine and good to play a Detroit or New Jersey-style system but to expect young skilled players who need the growing pains of offensive minutes to jump in and play on a checking line and still contribute points is asking too much.
Gagner, Omark and Paajarvi need offensive ice time. Playing them on the 3rd line with Belanger and Jones is keeping them from that with the pay off of a few extra points in a non-contending year.
I hope the Oilers realize this and adjust, or these players are going to be very good on another team, and we'll have some nice grinders who do little else.
I agree totally,I like belanger and parajjvi(even though niether are scoring right now)and smyth as a leader,eberle as well but other than that we are still in rebuild mode
Thanks War.
Alot of people here have cancelled their subscription to me because of my issues with this rebuild. You're right Eberle,Smyth and Khabibulin are crowd favorites and are part of this group as well.
I guess I am firmly in the camp that believes if/when the Edmonton Oilers win the Stanley Cup, Gagner will not be on the roster.
To me they traded the wrong player. I thought Cogliano should have stayed and Gagner should have been traded.
Cogliano plays 82 games, has a lot better speed, and seemed to have turned a corner last year, accepting the 3rd line role and got a lot better defensively. I think he adapts to the wing much better as well.
Call me crazy but the Oilers got rid of the wrong player. Now they might have to give up both.
@I'd rather have Shock and Awe, over just Bold.
~we agree!~
Being demoted to the 3rd & 4th lines isn't going to help him contribute to the team much, especially with next to no offense being generated on the bottom two lines. If the plan is to keep him there, it might be best to move him for a young defenseman with a similar level of experience.
~ OK. Enough Gagner talk. Let's start the bus going to get Hall out of town. The guy was brutal on the road. Hell he is already in his twenties and can't play in the tough road games. Let's package up him and Gagner for Skinner.~
Listen, no one has ever said he can't produce at a resonable level.... equivalent or better then Horcoff... the argument is that he'd be eaten alive defensively if he was playing where Horcoff does. You've done nothing to prove otherwise.
It isn't Gagner I don't like, it's weak arguments.
@Robin
Did I say something about Gagner playing on the fourth line or being a healthy scracth during the road trip ?
I thought they won't put a 22year old former 1st round pick on the fourth (CHECKING LINE) .
Gagner doesn't fit this teams new style, why would people think he fits the teams future ?
~gagne~
The kid line has got all the protection and offensive zone starts and they're still not world beaters. Gagner coming back from some serious injuries has had to play against stiffer competition with inferior line mates and is automatically the goat, of course!
Gagner probably came back from the high ankle sprain a bit soon, and has suffered from a bit of bad luck, BUT there is still a hockey player there. Why is the fan base in such a hurry to unload Gagner for less than what the return will bring back in return?
Those who want to ship Gagner out for pennies on the dollar need to bang your heads repeatedly against a wall, god knows that you couldn't possibly do any more damage.
Really what style is that? One that favours the dregs over talented players?
On the bright side if he bombs out this year we can sign him for a reasonable dollar on a 5 or 6 year contract after this season.
Cap management is key, and Gagner getting snakebitten in a contract year is good for business!
To back up my argument please review the following link http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/11/15/2564645/tom-renneys-forward-deployments
“Outside of the obvious coming back from injury excuses there isn't much to say”
Arch how's your star Sam doing? Its great seeing you have a slice of humble pie and being at a loss for words.
Seriously? Get out, your eyes are deceiving you. Either that or you have brain damage, which in that case I am very sorry.
Seriously? Get out, your eyes are deceiving you. Either that or you have brain damage, which in that case I am very sorry.
I shudder to think of what a team like Detroit could do with guys like Gagner or Paajarvi(i.e. Dan Cleary).
Cleary turned his career around because he realized he'd pissed away chances in Chicago and Edmonton and might not get any more if he blew it again. Dan stopped being distracted by life as an NHL player and commited himself to actually becoming one. He grew up.
Nothing in common in Gagner or Paajarvi. Their commitment level isn't an issue. They are young players struggling as young players tend to do from time to time.
Man would i like to know what Dave Gagner{Sams dad} thinks about his sons situation.
Hey, I've been wrong before. That said, he only needs 3 goals and he's caught up to Hall.
Plus my goat was so bang on I've already qualified for the next round.
Kyle Wellwood is producing at a .611 PPG pace for Winnipeg.
His cap hit is $700k.
Good hands √
Slow √
Small √
Weak on the puck √
SAM WELLWOOD!!!
Oh really?
Jakub Voracek: 149P in 258 GP. (.57PPG)
Has never been afforded the prime ice time and PP opportunity that Gagner has received.
On pace for a 57 point season.
Oh, by the way, he's 6'2" and 215 pounds and can skate.
Have patience?!?! It's been five years already and he progressively gets worse. Get rid of the bum.
I used to complain that the Oilers didn't have the budget to compete with New York, Philedelphia, New Jersey... now there is a salary cap and the Oilers have an owner with deep pockets.
I used to complain that Lowe was a bad general manager: a larger, more professional management structure has since been put into place.
I used to complain that we had no AHL affiliate. Then I complained that we had a crappy AHL affiliate. Now, it seems, that OKC is a well financed, well supported, effective developmental machine.
I used to complain that we had very poor amateur scouting. In 2007 I nearly lost my voice bitching to anyone who'd listen about the stupidity of picking another small center (Gagner) 6th, Plante (a guy most agencies projected to go in the 2nd or 3rd round) at 15th, and then (most incredibly) trading up to grab a BCHL player at 21st (Nash). I mean really: nobody from the BCHL had ever been drafted in the first round before... and you trade UP to get him? But Now we have Stu... and I need not complain about amateur scouting.
Last year I complained about ELPH. (Didn't find it that exciting)...
This year, frankly, there isn't that much to complain about... The players, the team, the total organization is night and day better than it was 5 years ago.
So I'm not going to complain about Sam Gagner. I'm not going to complain about how Renny is using Gagner. I'm not going to complain about whether or not the GM waited too long to get the best return for Gagner. Gagner will be fine. Things are good. Things will get better. I await tommorrows game with eagerness and genuine optimism. We will probably beat the Senators. We will give the Blackhawks a good game on Saturday.
Come on Arch, your star is the goat. There were way more expectations on Gagner because of his past performances. Omarks struggles pale in comparison. Right now Smytty's the star and Gagner is the goat.
That draft stunk. Kane obviously turned out, JVR is coming along and Turris doesn't even have a contract and has done nothing so far in his career to earn the one that he wants. What's Thomas Hickey up to these days? Karl Alzner is steady but unspectacular. I would argue that Sam is behind Kane, Couture and JVR right now but among the forwards in that first round (unless I am missing somebody), I think that Gagner has been one of the best so far. Gagner made a weak team as a teenager. Now, he might not even be good enough to hold a regular spot in the lineup. That speaks to an improvement in depth. Now might not be the time, but it's hard to see him holding off the surge from our upcoming prospects for much longer.
Wanye: OK boys, we've got some big-time potential advertisers coming in next week and we need to show them some humongous site traffic numbers. Any suggestions?
Kent: Well I suppose we could start randomly seeding the words "Justin Beiber" throughout the articles to fake out the search engines. But there's only one thing I know of that's a sure-fire way to get the sort of traffic you're looking for Wanye...
Wanye: (Raises half-empty beer mug in agreement ) Now you're talking my language Kent!
>Kent and Wanye slap each other on the back, spark some fresh Cubans and power up NHL '12 to do some "research". They both yell out so loudly the deaf lady in the next building calls the cops. "GAGNER ARTICLE!"
nah... i'd still stick with logan. plus he shares a name with wolverine, so that's cool.
I'm pretty sure the Oilers looked down quickly in 2007 saw Ri(some other letters) Nash, got excited and confused and then just blurted our "Nash!"
That's not an excuse, but I'd prefer to imagine that's what happened, than imagine the sorry state of our scouting pre-SMB
@Kodiak
While we're at it Seguin is better than Hall too
Valid Point (check)
trying to figure out how to put check marks in... (fail) ☺☻♥♦♣♠•◘○∟}▲▒▓│┤ÁÂ
OH NO, YOU DIDN'T JUST GO THERE!
TAKE IT BACK!
Yes. √
Yes he is. √
Ah but seriously. Sam's problems are most likely the result of having too many younger guys in need of prime minutes for development purposes. Those minutes used top be his. Now he's stuck with whatever leftovers the team can spare. No wonder his confidence is shaky right about now.
Option V if you're a Mac user.
No one can help you (maybe a phone call from India) if you aren't.
Maybe he is. What's your point?
Option + V on a MAC. √
✓
On a PC.....
figured it out kinda... in html it is "& # 10003;" without spaces.... have to submit comment to show up.
that only killed 20 minutes of work time... thanks DSF.
✔
Seguin is putting up some numbers this year and is going to be a very good player. I am not ready to say that he is better than Hall. not even close to ready.