I'm sorry. Is this not a reasonable forum for debate? Was I not nice enough when I described what I found awkward about the article?

Is it more polite to go tell somebody to shoot themselves?

Seeing as how you just suggested that this is a forum for idiots, you must feel right at home.

Edit: au·tom·a·ton (ô-tm-tn, -tn) n. pl. au·tom·a·tons or au·tom·a·ta (-t) 1. A self-operating machine or mechanism, especially a robot. 2. One that behaves or responds in a mechanical way.

Doesn't questioning the logic of an article make one the antithesis of an automaton?

@Harlie

Jamie, I hear what you're saying, and it's an ok point to make. I also want you to know I'm a Reddox fan, so I mean absolutely no disrespect to Rudy when I say this:

In his wildest fantasies, Reddox is not capable of being the second-best player in the KHL. Reddox is a good soldier, but Thor is a better one.

It's true, we are all sheep that believe the tripe the media sells us, like the ridiculous notion that Malkin is better than Hemsky. Thank goodness you are here to save us from ourselves.

Right, now there is nothing polite about this forum at the moment,your at Willis's posting and complaining he put personal opinion in his article. He's a journalist most of it is personal opinion whether you realize it or not. He is expressing things from a point of view that can only be his, unless you have some crazy powers that allow you to read his mind, which is how almost all journalism is done and therefore makes it a personal opinion.

Jonathan

Whilst I can certainly understand the potential benefits of delaying promising rookies from starting their ELC, have you thought about how that would actually work in practice? How do you think a player would feel about the organisation if they: - forced you to spend a year or more earning a fraction of what you would earn if you were in the NHL - kept you in such a situation even though you were clearly better right now than some of the players on the team's NHL roster - refused to let you, a competitive professional athlete, test yourself against the best players in the world - did all this in the hopes of badly underpaying you relative to your production for the first three years you spent in the NHL

Do you think a player treated that way would have positive feelings about the organisation? Do you think they would be willing to give a hometown discount when negotiating future contracts with the team or do think they would try to recoup some of the money they lost playing under their ELC? What about other players in the league ie. potential free agents signings? Do you think they would think a team that treated their rookies this way would be a good organisation to join, one that knows how to look after its players?

If my employer took advantage of me in this way I know I would be looking to get out at the earliest opportunity.

Is the short term gain of increasing the odds that a player outperforms their ELC really worth doing potentially irreparable damage to your relationship with that player?

To be fair, I think Pääjärvi would have gotten some benefit in the AHL as opposed to the SEL. He could get top-line minutes in a good league on NA ice.

I don't think JW was suggesting he should stay in Sweden

Those KHL numbers merit the discussion. And if he turned himself into a centre who can win face-offs that would be a remarkable transformation. A solid 3-4th line centre perhaps? Haven't Brule, Cog and Fraser worn out their welcome yet?

Saying "Nabokov is coming back" does not mean he is going back to SJ

He suggests it right here.

http://oilersnation.com/2011/1/27/paajarvi-should-have-been-held-back-a-year

Well, that may be true, but in this case the parallel isn't quite the same.

If Thor truly wanted to come back to Edmonton, and Oilers management decided they wanted him here, there's not much anyone is likely to be able to do about it. Not even the Islanders.

Edit: After re-reading, I may have given the wrong impression. I get that SJ didn't want him. Was referring more to the Red Wings with my point. Sorry if I missed yours.

It's that sad realization that there are 29 games left before this season can mercifully end.

We need someone else to riff on before this boils over. Hey guys, get a load of the Leafs! They traded two lottery picks for a fat jerk who doesn't like it there! At least we're not them, right?

*high fives the Nation, but there's a twinge of sadness and denial behind it*

Ask the Red Wings and the players that aren't in the lineup until they are ready what they think.

Anybody willing to block a point shot with his nads can play for my team. A team can NEVER have enough heart and hustle and that is exactly what Thor would provide. Sign him up.

Yes, there is that post. It also says:

"The problem is that the Oilers are burning a year of Paajarvi’s entry-level contract while he isn’t a difference maker to give him limited NHL minutes, when they could be saving that year for when he’s a better player and giving him virtually unlimited minutes in the SEL or AHL. From a cap management and development perspective, that strikes me as flawed thinking."

Including the AHL. I agree. It's not that I don't like Pääjärvi, I think he is a good player and will be a very, very good player. He also has shown more confidence lately, and it shows in his game. I also think a year in the AHL would have let him do that and with game-deciding minutes.

The year of the ELC isn't really a concern to me.

Which current Red Wing prospects who are clearly better than the players on the roster? For that matter, which former Red Wings prospects were kept in the minors for a year or more while inferior players were on the NHL roster?

It's one thing to keep players in the minors because they can't beat out any of the players on your roster for a spot. It's quite another to keep a player in the minors, despite the fact that he's better than some of the players on the NHL roster, just so he doesn't start his ELC.

"I think what generally irritates me about this article and your banter with BM is that you state your opinion as if it's fact."

I would have to agree with this comment.

Still, maybe Thoresen is worth taking a look at for next year. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't he have to clear waivers this year (like Nabokov)?

I am not sure who they are thinking will be our top checking center next year. But a guy that costs next to nothing, has 55% in the dot, gives up very little and has a lot of jam might be an upgrade over say cogs or COLIN FRASER

Not that I have anything against bringing him in, I'd still like to bring in a proven NHL two-way forward. Not another I did well at every level other than the NHL guy.

There is also a dude with 110mph slapper in the KHL and no one wants him. All this fuss about a Norseman and its not Vikingstad!!

Anyone here remember that great-old original Nintendo game game, Dr. Mario? I used to love that game. Played it for hours. No one would play me because I'd set up elaborate drops where my opponent would just start making progress and then the heavens would open with trash dumps all over him . . . ah, good times. I digress.

The ulimate challenge on that game was to beat level 20 on high-speed. It was pretty hard; from the beginning of that level, there was no room for error. I eventually got to the point where I could beat it just about every time. Know how I got that good?

By practicing on level 20-high, over and over and over again.

Practicing lower levels didn't teach me how precise I had to be right out of the gate. Practicing slower speeds didn't teach me how to let my reflexes make the decisions instead of my brain. Only by playing at the highest level of difficulty was I able to perfect the highest level of difficulty.

This thread has been completely hijacked from it's original topic, and since I've already gone on record as saying I support Jon in his notion that Patrick Thoreson should return to the NHL (and I say the Oilers), I'll throw out my 2-cents on Pääjärvi's ELC as well. Playing in the AHL or SEL might not have hurt Magnus' development, but I don't think it would have helped him as much as doing the real thing here every day. It's not all about the gametime he sees with the Oilers. Every practice, every optional skate, he gets better here than he would doing similar things elsewhere. It sucks that we'll have to pay him more down the line maybe a year earlier, but he's going to be better a year earlier because of it.

None of this, by the way, has anything to do with Patrick Thoreson's situation. Apples and oranges.

Sheldon Souray agrees with this post.

~Damn it; then I have to rewrite it.~

Seriously, I don't think anyone honestly believes that playing in junior is good for Souray's game. He's there because he's being punished, not because he's being groomed. If the Oilers could have found a way to make him play with rocks in his skates, I think they would have.

Thats why his foot speed is shot. Practising at level 10.

Well, I'm glad I don't have to be impartial like the MSM. Logic of the situation and justifications aside, I giggle my ass off every time I think about the impending demise of Souray's career. Reap what you sow, Souray, you arrogant bastage.

I thought the "Paajarvi Should've Been Held Back a Year" reference was appropriate for one reason:

When constructing an article based on opinion, it's important for the author to make explicit what is their opinion, and what is fact. Framing your point of view with phrasing such as "In my opinion", "based on these facts I conclude", or "the evidence suggests", posits that you are conveying your point of view.

However, boldly stating things like "Penner is fat", "Tambellini is dumb", "Chinese Walruses can't play hockey", evidenced by the title to your Paajarvi article, or several points that appear in the above article, you display your opinion as being a fact. This is why myself and BaggedMilk seem so compelled to debate your "facts".

I like your articles, Willis. Several of them have made me re-think the way I see the game or evaluate players. But I think you can be a better journalist by staying clear of broad-sweeping claims like "Paajarvi should've ...", and rather pose a question such as "Should Paajarvi have been held back", then provide support for your position.

"Could we see Patrick Thoresen back in the NHL based on his performance in the KHL?" would've been a better thesis.

I have to say Souray made this what it is. Its not the Oiler's fault that no one wanted to trade for him and its still not their fault that no one is willing to take him for half of his salary. Even when/if the oilers buyout his contract, will there be any team willing to sign him?

Perfectly stated.

I didn't say they were there while inferior players were playing on the club. What I meant is that Detroit seems not to insert their young players into their lineup until they have had some seasoning.

Datsyuk: Drafted in 1998, played a year with the Wings in 2001/2002

Zetterberg: Drafted in 1999, played a year in 2002/2003

Abdelkader: Drafted in 2005, played a year in '07/'08

Hudler: Drafted in 2002, played 12 games in '03/'04, played a year in '06/'07

Kronwall: Drafted in 2000: Had a couple of stints with the big club in '03/'04 and '05/'06 but not a regular shift until '06/'07

They were brought along slowly. People still complain that Gagner and Cogliano were brought in too soon. With the rookies in the lineup already this year, Pääjärvi could have developed playing top minutes in th AHL this year.

He is on the team now, and doing well and in no way am I saying his development was stunted coming straight here. His TC said he needed a shot here. I think Omark had some benefit from the AHL this year.

I'm not criticizing the article because I want to be an ass. I'm criticizing it because I know Willis can be better.

Young hockey players, journalists, CEO's, etc can all benefit from a challenge, or some insightful criticism. It's not always a pissing contest. This however was not a strong piece.

I'm not convinced that Patrick Thoresen, after proving his offensive abilities in every league except the NHL is really going to come back and take the world's best league by storm. Willis is. We differ in opinion. I only ask that as a budding journalist he take a position and be prepared to debate his. That to me seems to be a fair and responsible goal for an editorialist.

I've read a few people asking what the NHL equivalencies of his numbers are. I don't know Babs, but I do know this: he's tied for second in league scoring. He's outscoring Yashin, Jagr, every other KHL player your care to name except Radulov or Cervenka. This does not mean he will light up the NHL, but it is clearly an impressive accomplishment.
You could argue the time doesn't need more small players, you could argue that there's no way that he could be worse than Fraser, but I don't see how you could argue that a solid defensive player with a great attitude and skill on the dot doesn't put himself in contention for an NHL job when he ties for second in the world's second best league's scoring race. Forget what you think about Paajarvi, or Willis- try to argue that the player I just described doesn't deserve a few looks this summer. I'd love to hear it.

I really hope Thor finds a job in the NHL, just not with the Oilers.

But did you think about Jozef Vasicek JW? He's posting pretty good KHL numbers too, specially in the faceoff circle.

He's much bigger than Thor and he's a czek. Could probably help Hemsky to want to stick around a little longer.

Never did I say Thoresen would take Paajarvi's spot or anyone else on the roster, how are you coming to that conclusion? My connecting the Paajarvi article to today's Thoresen piece is a "here we go again" look at what you've written lately. Stop getting so offended when someone disagrees with you.

Yes Willis, I'm personally attacking you on the Internet to invalidate your opinion. Now you're reaching, but hey, which straw did I get? I'm guessing if you're playing too, it's the short one.

Fair. I just think that guys who don't make it in the NHL don't make it for a reason. The KHL is a different league with a different style of game. There's a different amount of time and space and you only have to read Paajarvi's recent comments about how much the smaller rink changes the game from the way he played in Sweden to know what I'm talking about.

Is it impossible for a guy to do well in both leagues? Of course not. Do I think Patrick Thoresen at age 27 has suddenly developed the skize and skills to score 20 goals in the NHL in anything short of a "Petr Prucha scoring 30 goals on a power play with Jagr" situation? I do not.

What did Willis do to get such antagonistic snotty comments directed his way. I can't figure it out.

The guy gets paid to write his opinions; he writes them. We can agree or disagree and carry on with our lives. I love the debate. I like thinking about possibilities.

I disagree that Paajarvi should have been put into the minors this year, but i don't resent the fact that JW disagrees with me. I just figure that it's an interesting discussion.

We are all fans of the same team here, folks. Keep your stick on the ice. Tip a glass, eat some popcorn, and chill out.

You may think this but you are wrong. 100% of the top players in the KHL would be quality NHL players. There is no such thing as a KHL star who can't play in the NHL.

@ Jonathan and Baggedmilk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js_32tdy2kQ

Good thing someone pointed out the obvious. Thanks.

Wow JW you must have pissed a few people off about something. Right from the beginning it seemed to me that you were being attacked. Just to clarify this is only MY OPINION!!

On Thor, why not give the guy a shot. Whats the worst that can happen. I don't know if people have noticed but we suck basketballs!

This place is getting very negative i hope the people that figure debating equals attacking grow up. It a feckin blog people!

No, to another Patrick Thoresen stint..this team doesn't need Patrick Thoresen...this team needs Ben Eager, Chris Neil, Zenon Kenopka, Kevin Bieksa

Maybe someone out there can use Patrick Thoresen, but I highly doubt Thoresen will bring much more to the NHL than he brought before...

After reading extensively JW's many opinions my feeling is, with a guy who berated the Oilers for not resigning Fernando Pisani, not bringing Souray back here even after his me first atttitude and complaining that the Oilers didn't sign Dominic Moore I'm inclined to think that Thoresen would likely be a bust back in the NHL.

You don't think Dominic Moore would help this team? Well you're crazy, but that's no sin.
You're making the same mistake Bagged Milk is: you're writing off this new opinion because you didn't like some past ones. Anyone who is a good skater, defensive player, face-off man and energy guy who is capable of dominating in KHL can play in the NHL. No one is saying he'll make all-star teams, and he might not fit in Edmonton, but he can play.

Are you not writing off our opinions? My opinion is Patrick Thoresen does nothing to help this team get better.

I'm not making any mistake, I gave you my opinion. So it's ok for JW to have an opinion but mine is not valid?

My opinion is Thoresen will not have any impact of note on any team in the NHL despite whatever it is he does in the KHL. I think you're a bit loony to think he would.

And no, I don't think Dominic Moore would have done thing one for this team. He would have been another Colin Fraser, only older. Another smallish forward who is bad defensively, doesn't hit, doesn't fight, doesn't score, isn't a set up guy. What has he done with Tampa, a strong team no less? Check out his minus 16 rating.

That would have worked out well here.

Yes seriously,

The Oilers don't need to be wasting their time with reclamation projects and need to move on to the things they really need.

No grit isn't the only thing, they need a good d-man or two as well....They are set up nicely going forward with skill forwards and are about to add another one at the June draft. A bit more nasty and a d-man or two and things will be looking up.

What could they possibly lose by signing Thoresen? Oh how about they would be bringing in someone who can't cut it in the NHL and has proven as much. Thus he would be taking a spot away from someone who really needs it (ie: Paajarvi) or from someone who would actually make the team better.

Thoresen would not make the team better and he is yet another smallish forward who wouldn't help the team from having their show run one iota.

Talk about taking this team backwards or at the very best, sideways....brilliant.

Does not the KHL use the bigger European Ice Surface? Playing on smaller ice is harder than playing on bigger, the game is marginally slower in Europe. Its taken Paajarvi and Omark time to get used to the more crowded NHL ice, to say nothing of the hitting.

How do you figure larger ice and less hitting into Thoresen's better play? And what quality of faceoff men has he faced?

Huh?, internet hero? Ok, if you say so.

Perhaps you didn't notice, Thoresen already played here and in other NHL cities and he was a joke...so you want to replace guys that are a joke with a guy that is a joke...

Nice

We'll see how many teams are lined up to get Thoresen....my bet is the list is short.

What you do to get out of being last is address your needs, not add more junk.

Well Moore does have six times as many points as Fraser, and while I will admit to having missed most of the Tampa games this year, when Moore was with the Habs he hit, hustled and scored. He was also one of the best players on a bad Leafs team a couple years ago, and he's played 400+ games. I think that makes him more qualified than Fraser. You're right about him not being a difference maker though.
It seemed like your problems weren't with JW's current opinion, it was with his past ones. My problem with your opinion is that its wrong, all on its own. Not dramatically wrong; Thoresen might not be great, but he's obviously at least the tenth best forward on this team.

How was he a joke? Why are you ignoring that he is dominating a very good league? How many fourth liners would go to the KHL and do that?