Vande Velde Van Gogh In the FO Circle

Lowetide
April 03 2011 07:30AM

EdmontonOilers2

Chris Vande Velde arrived in pro hockey with a reputation for being a quality performer in the faceoff circle. He's performed well in the discipline in college, the American League and now in a small NHL sample. How valuable is the skill? Will it secure the Dutchman NHL employment?

When he was a junior and then college player, Vande Velde was a go-to guy in the faceoff circle and played the center position with aplomb. His draft day scouting report implied quality, and the earliest glimpse of the type of player we've seen recently in Edmonton:

  • Redline report: He has an incredibly long reach and is uncanny playing in traffic. When he got his skating legs going, he was nearly impossible to push off the puck, in an almost Keith Primeau–like fashion. Like Oshie, North Dakota has VandeVelde slated for the fall of 2006, and until then, he'll skate for the Lincoln Stars.

When Vande Velde turned pro last fall, I felt he'd be the first of the new pro's to emerge (based on age). However, Vande Velde's numbers (62gp, 12-4-16 -17) are not good and the number of minor leaguers recalled ahead of him (Reddox, Omark, O'Marra) suggested there was much to learn.

Doritogrande will be a well known name to Oilogosphere readers and he offered some exceptional insight into Vande Velde in OKC here. Quoting a portion of the post:

  • Chris VandeVelde was pegged as the de-facto checking center tonight, and was given the linemates befitting a player that the coaching staff wants in a defined role. He was able to saw-off the Moose top line of Hodgson-Volpatti-Shirokov with a little help from his friends. He showed good hustle, average speed and good skills in the faceoff dot.

This fits with Todd Nelson's (OKC's coach) viewpoint on the player:

  • His adjustment was learning the pro game. Up until Christmas, he was okay for us. But after Christmas he took it upon himself to play well in his D zone. Along with that, with the more responsibility he got, he began to improve offensively. He's been good for us, he's been excellent in the faceoff circle. He's 1-2 every night, it's either him or O'Marra.  

The entire interview is here. Vande Velde's rookie AHL season has him tied for 105th among rookies in that league, so he's going to have to bring other elements to his game. And that's where we can talk about his size (6.02, 204) and his ability in the faceoff circle.

In a very small sample size (8 games), Vande Velde is 56.7% on the dot (in 97 sorties). He's also gaining the confidence of the coach.

  • Tom Renney: “He’s very reliable. To a point, you expect what he delivers and he does. He’s a little bit predictable in that way, which is a good thing. I’m just tying to give him an opportunity to play in a number of different circumstances and he’s done well.”

The Renney quote (along with more on Vande Velde) is here.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

Vande Velde is building enough of a resume to be "in the mix" for NHL employment in 11-12. A good bet would be more AHL time but perhaps an earlier recall when injuries or slumps force roster moves. I'd estimate he fits this way into the center depth chart at the pro level:

  1. Shawn Horcoff
  2. Sam Gagner
  3. Andrew Cogliano
  4. Colin Fraser
  5. Chris Vande Velde
  6. Ryan O'Marra
  7. Anton Lander (unsigned)
  8. Milan Kytnar

There are all kinds of things that could change (drafting RNH, moving Hall to center) but as it stands that 4line job should be an interesting contest during TC in the fall. Vande Velde's spring audition puts him in the mix, and his faceoff ability--in a small sample size--may make him a favorite.

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Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
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#101 Peterborough
April 04 2011, 12:59PM
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ricky p wrote:

Are you stupid? So no one knows Perry's upside, yet you think all the Oiler drafts are gold. Lose for another stud, give me a break. It's stupid people like you that got this draft thing as our future. Your future buddy is to pull your head out of your a$$.

. . . So not wanting to abandon the "plan", that virtually everyone agreed was the best choice of action after one year; after its done exactly what it's supposed to do: That makes you stupid?

Do me a favour go to this site:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/

Take a good look at our kids. Then take a look a the guys who are new to it since this whole "Oil Change" started. Now take a look at the other 30 teams and what they have. Add to that no team has a better group of picks than we do in the draft.

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#102 rickithebear
April 04 2011, 01:25PM
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madjam wrote:

Calgary remains competitive every season despite the draft and one cannot count them out just yet for this season . Their chances are slim , but like most veteran squads need little to get them back in contention for next season . Oilers on the other hand have a huge gap in player imbalance and quality between good NHL veterans and youngsters . Erixon -teammate of Larsson , looks like he'll be a good one for Flames as early as next season . Flames shouldn't have to worry about gutting their team to remain competitive in other words . The quality of our veterans is also not very high or even acceptable by last two seasons finishes .

I wouldn't be worried about the veteran squads as they have far less to worry about the draft than we do . There comes a point where we have to many youngsters and little space left for veteran balance . I am beginning to wonder if we are to oversaturated with youth already ? Veteran AHL talent is not helping an awful lot in comparison to clubs with a solid NHL caliber squad core .

We found more what doesn't work , but when are we headed toward a balance that seems to be working every where else ?

You do not get it. Short term give me my pleasure now guy is the folly of fools. We are were we are because we selected: 1996 Devereaux 6th Descoteaux 19th 1997 reisen 14th 1998 Heinrich 13th 1999 rita 14th 2000 mikhnov 17th 2001 hemsky 13th 2002 Ninimaki 15th 2003 pouliot 22nd

Fraser and Pendegast were brutal.

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#103 dawgbone
April 04 2011, 01:31PM
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Peterborough wrote:

. . . So not wanting to abandon the "plan", that virtually everyone agreed was the best choice of action after one year; after its done exactly what it's supposed to do: That makes you stupid?

Do me a favour go to this site:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/

Take a good look at our kids. Then take a look a the guys who are new to it since this whole "Oil Change" started. Now take a look at the other 30 teams and what they have. Add to that no team has a better group of picks than we do in the draft.

All kids look good until they are 5 years older. Hell, Sam Gagner is already trade bait because half the fans think he's no good, and he's what, 21?

The problem with the build through the draft philosophy is that for Every Chicago there is an Atlanta. For every Pittsburgh there is a Florida.

The problem with building through the draft is that you are picking an 18 year old to play in a league dominated by 27 year olds. The best 18 year old isn't always the best player 7 or 8 years down the road.

Part of "the plan" should include adding players to make the team better in the short term. There's enough decent NHL players floating around every summer that you should be able to go from a lottery team to playoff team in a season or two.

Providing the Oilers only look at the draft option, they are going to miss out big time.

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#104 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 02:31PM
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Why do people keep saying that patience = using the draft as our one and only source of player procurement?

Why does trading a pick for a 22 year old player who is 4 years further along the development path and has proven he can play equal "giving up on the rebuild?" It doesn't.

Why does signing a veteran to a 2 year deal to show all the kids the ropes equate to abandoning the plan? It doesn't.

There are more ways to build a team than "draft and pray." Good teams figure that out.

You all want to be Chicago and Pittsburgh, well guess what...both of those teams had vets to play with their kids. Both of those teams signed players to free agent contracts. Both of those teams made trades to try and improve.

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#105 Peterborough
April 04 2011, 02:45PM
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dawgbone wrote:

All kids look good until they are 5 years older. Hell, Sam Gagner is already trade bait because half the fans think he's no good, and he's what, 21?

The problem with the build through the draft philosophy is that for Every Chicago there is an Atlanta. For every Pittsburgh there is a Florida.

The problem with building through the draft is that you are picking an 18 year old to play in a league dominated by 27 year olds. The best 18 year old isn't always the best player 7 or 8 years down the road.

Part of "the plan" should include adding players to make the team better in the short term. There's enough decent NHL players floating around every summer that you should be able to go from a lottery team to playoff team in a season or two.

Providing the Oilers only look at the draft option, they are going to miss out big time.

Are you really comapring the programs they have in Atlata and Florida to those in Pitt and Chitown??? Thats just plain irresponsible and surface skimming. Why has Atanta failed repeatedly??? Trading away prospect like Coburn for vets like Zhitnik in a "win now mentality"

Show me were Chicago or Pitt did that or traded away they're top picks like Florida did. To build by the draft right you need a good system to develope the kids we have that now. Those successful draft builders did too. The failures did not. Get where this is going?

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#106 Peterborough
April 04 2011, 02:58PM
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No one is saying that. Its the lets trade picks and prospects talk thats crazy. We're not there yet. A couple of UFA on two contacts would be lovely. Scotty Upstall to play with Hemsky would make me crazy happy. But we are at a add value or trade at max value point in the process. Who can we get max value for??? With the the injuries have gone this year the answer is no one right now. So make a trade a make us weaker??? No one short of Bob Flanagan: Super Masochist is going to like sucking next year . . . However the alternative is to become the next Toronto, is that what you want?

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#107 Quicksilver ballet
April 04 2011, 03:10PM
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The Pens did move one of their higher end picks, they sent 5th overall Ryan Whitney to Anaheim for Kunitz and Eric Tangradi, so they aren't completely without sin.

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#108 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 03:37PM
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Peterborough wrote:

Are you really comapring the programs they have in Atlata and Florida to those in Pitt and Chitown??? Thats just plain irresponsible and surface skimming. Why has Atanta failed repeatedly??? Trading away prospect like Coburn for vets like Zhitnik in a "win now mentality"

Show me were Chicago or Pitt did that or traded away they're top picks like Florida did. To build by the draft right you need a good system to develope the kids we have that now. Those successful draft builders did too. The failures did not. Get where this is going?

Chicago had 9 players over 30 play at least 25 games during Kane and Toews rookie season.

During their, what you would have us believe was a completely draft based rebuild they signed players like Campbell and Huet because of their "win now attitiude." Not to mention other promising youth such as Handzus, Perrault and Lang. They traded for Pahlsson around that time as well.

The year before Kane they carried more youth on their roster like Bondra, Smolinski, Cullimore, Aucoin and Lapointe. This ignores a few other vets too, but you get the idea.

The point is that they didn't sit on their hands waiting and praying that their draft picks were going to all pan out. Don't pretend they did.

This so called "strategy" is nothing but an excuse for losing so they can all keep their jobs for another 4-6 years without doing anything to earn their keep.

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#109 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 03:39PM
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Peterborough wrote:

Remember when we started this tear down and everybody said we had to rebuild the farm first and get a stock of prospects??? Well after this draft we will have the deepest propect pool and Well stocked AHL club. Thats phaze one and its almost done.

IE WORKING

We have never tried to build though the draft before, now you want to give up after one year???

Do me a favour sell me your Oilers gear and go buy some flames stuff. You sound like a flames fan already!!!

Or be patient and build a winner like Chicago did like Pittburge did like. . . or we could say $%#* it and be Columbus. . .

Thank God its not up to you!!!!

No, No, I completely, 100% disagree.....

.....He sounds like a Leafs fan

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#110 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 03:41PM
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@Peterborough

Its the lets trade picks and prospects talk thats crazy.

No it isn't.

A rational debate about the merits are fine, but when someone suggests moving the number one pick for a well established prospect or good young player people react like they suggested trading it for Ethan Moreau.

We have never tried to build though the draft before.

This is absurd. Are you suggesting the Oilers have traded away all their picks until now...or do you just mean that we haven't been so bad that we had top 5 picks before?

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#111 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 03:52PM
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Peterborough wrote:

Remember when we started this tear down and everybody said we had to rebuild the farm first and get a stock of prospects??? Well after this draft we will have the deepest propect pool and Well stocked AHL club. Thats phaze one and its almost done.

IE WORKING

We have never tried to build though the draft before, now you want to give up after one year???

Do me a favour sell me your Oilers gear and go buy some flames stuff. You sound like a flames fan already!!!

Or be patient and build a winner like Chicago did like Pittburge did like. . . or we could say $%#* it and be Columbus. . .

Thank God its not up to you!!!!

By what measure is the plan working? We're going to get a high pick this year, yes, but if that's your goal it's a pretty difficult thing to mess up.

I've got no objection to the rebuild, but there's a joke about the '93 provincial election. The voters, frustrated as all hell with the deficits the P.C. government ran up, fumed up the ballot box and said "Those bastards got us into this mess, it's their job to get us out."

If you're laughing and you support the Lowe/Tambellini regime, I feel some cognitive dissonance coming on.

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#112 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 03:53PM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

Why do people keep saying that patience = using the draft as our one and only source of player procurement?

Why does trading a pick for a 22 year old player who is 4 years further along the development path and has proven he can play equal "giving up on the rebuild?" It doesn't.

Why does signing a veteran to a 2 year deal to show all the kids the ropes equate to abandoning the plan? It doesn't.

There are more ways to build a team than "draft and pray." Good teams figure that out.

You all want to be Chicago and Pittsburgh, well guess what...both of those teams had vets to play with their kids. Both of those teams signed players to free agent contracts. Both of those teams made trades to try and improve.

I agree that they need some capable veterans. It is hard to find those players though, through free agency especially. Those young promising players won't sign with the 2nd least desirable team in the league to player for.

Trades are arguably a better way to do it, but how has that worked for the Flames or Leafs?

There does seem to be a plan in place and it started with establishing an AHL team and stockpiling draft picks.

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#113 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 03:55PM
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dawgbone wrote:

All kids look good until they are 5 years older. Hell, Sam Gagner is already trade bait because half the fans think he's no good, and he's what, 21?

The problem with the build through the draft philosophy is that for Every Chicago there is an Atlanta. For every Pittsburgh there is a Florida.

The problem with building through the draft is that you are picking an 18 year old to play in a league dominated by 27 year olds. The best 18 year old isn't always the best player 7 or 8 years down the road.

Part of "the plan" should include adding players to make the team better in the short term. There's enough decent NHL players floating around every summer that you should be able to go from a lottery team to playoff team in a season or two.

Providing the Oilers only look at the draft option, they are going to miss out big time.

What was the last team to go from a lottery pick to a playoff berth in 2 seasons?

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#114 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 03:57PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

I agree that they need some capable veterans. It is hard to find those players though, through free agency especially. Those young promising players won't sign with the 2nd least desirable team in the league to player for.

Trades are arguably a better way to do it, but how has that worked for the Flames or Leafs?

There does seem to be a plan in place and it started with establishing an AHL team and stockpiling draft picks.

Yet over each of the last 2 summers capable vets have sat at home waiting for a contract well into the summer.

I love how you list the Flames and the Leafs. What about all the playoff teams that have made trades?

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#115 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 03:58PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

What was the last team to go from a lottery pick to a playoff berth in 2 seasons?

Colorado - Last year.

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#116 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 04:00PM
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@Wax Man Riley

Tampa's doing it this year. Toronto has an outside chance of doing it in one year, just as Colorado and L.A. did last year.

(Though you could always disqualify the Leafs on the basis that they didn't actually have a lottery pick.)

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#117 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 04:21PM
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@Wax Man Riley

I agree that they need some capable veterans. It is hard to find those players though through free agency especially. Those young promising players won't sign with the 2nd least desirable team in the league to player for.

I'm not sure how to respond here because it's a bit disjointed. Are we talking about veterans or young players?

There does seem to be a plan in place and it started with establishing an AHL team and stockpiling draft picks.

So finally doing what other teams do and getting a farm team and then planning to lose as much as possible to get high picks and then hope they all work out counts as a plan to you?

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#118 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 04:25PM
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Article about the youth in Columbus that might have some bearing on some of the Gagner discussion:

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/04/03/its-not-too-late-for-voracek-and-brassard.html?sid=101

Link courtesy of commenter Marc on Lowetide

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#119 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 04:31PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Colorado - Last year.

Good point, I was seriously asking because I didn't know. It hasn't seemed to work out so well for Colorado this year though.

Tampa is pretty much doing it. I don't want to look up all the stats, but I wonder what they did differently (trades, free agents etc...), because it seems to be working for them. Drafting a player that turns into a 50-goal scorer helps I'm sure. I'd bet if Hall scores 50 next year, the Oil are close to the playoffs.

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#120 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 04:32PM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

Article about the youth in Columbus that might have some bearing on some of the Gagner discussion:

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/04/03/its-not-too-late-for-voracek-and-brassard.html?sid=101

Link courtesy of commenter Marc on Lowetide

As a side note:

"Voracek is seen by the organization as the player with the most upward potential, but he's a restricted free agent and contract talks with agent Peter Svoboda could get sticky."

Might open up a deal centerd around Hemsky for Voracek.

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#121 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 04:32PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Yet over each of the last 2 summers capable vets have sat at home waiting for a contract well into the summer.

I love how you list the Flames and the Leafs. What about all the playoff teams that have made trades?

Which capable veterans do you mean?

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#122 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 04:34PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Good point, I was seriously asking because I didn't know. It hasn't seemed to work out so well for Colorado this year though.

Tampa is pretty much doing it. I don't want to look up all the stats, but I wonder what they did differently (trades, free agents etc...), because it seems to be working for them. Drafting a player that turns into a 50-goal scorer helps I'm sure. I'd bet if Hall scores 50 next year, the Oil are close to the playoffs.

I'll break the bad news to you. TB traded for and signed capable support vets.

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#123 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 04:34PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Which capable veterans do you mean?

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2010-nhl-unrestricted-free-agents-by-position/

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#124 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 04:50PM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:
I agree that they need some capable veterans. It is hard to find those players though through free agency especially. Those young promising players won't sign with the 2nd least desirable team in the league to player for.

I'm not sure how to respond here because it's a bit disjointed. Are we talking about veterans or young players?

There does seem to be a plan in place and it started with establishing an AHL team and stockpiling draft picks.

So finally doing what other teams do and getting a farm team and then planning to lose as much as possible to get high picks and then hope they all work out counts as a plan to you?

I meant that finding those promising free agents is tough because of...

I'm not going to defend the idiots that decided they didn't need their own farm team. That is a choice that I could never understand. They had to get an AHL team, and they want to stock picks in order to make that farm team an actual farm team.

You state it quite dirty, but you know what? That's kind of the plan.

Here is how I would state it:

1. "Not having an AHL team has damaged this organization. We need to establish a farm team in order to be able to use it as a development step for our players. We need more picks so we can produce a competitive atmosphere where players must fight for their ice time. We have a few prospects coming up, but to help this team long-term, lets stock up on prospects. It will be a tough few years as our existing prospects develop, but that will help in our goal of getting more prospects."

"As those prospects learn and grow, we will look to possibly trading some of our picks/prospects that we have been building up, or try to sign the bigger free agents to ice a competitive team. As that team competes, we will have the farm team stocked up already so if/when the injuries come, we will have capable players to fill in as well as an avenue for our picks that weren't first overall."

Arguably a different way of saying:

2."Uhhh... lets plan to lose as much as possible to get high picks that we hope will work out."

The first option sounds like a plan, and I'll bet is closer to what is happening than the second option.

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#125 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 04:55PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

I'll break the bad news to you. TB traded for and signed capable support vets.

You aren't breaking bad news if I ask the question.

Here is a conversation to think about:

Agent - "So you're on the UFA market and people are getting signed quick. You can go to Edmonton or Florida."

Player - "Is Tampa Bay the second least desirable team to play for?"

Agent - "No"

Player - "Both are losing teams, but one has St. Louis and a 50 goal scorer and is in Florida? Hmmm..."

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#126 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 05:02PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2010-nhl-unrestricted-free-agents-by-position/

Thanks for the link, but what players are you signing off of that list? Modano? Madden? Marleaau? Jason Williams?-His 25 games he played this year would help out.

Plekanec? for 5 mil a year?

Primeau? His 8 pts in 59 games would help this team win a cup this year.

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#127 Peterborough
April 04 2011, 05:25PM
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Steve Smith wrote:

Tampa's doing it this year. Toronto has an outside chance of doing it in one year, just as Colorado and L.A. did last year.

(Though you could always disqualify the Leafs on the basis that they didn't actually have a lottery pick.)

Tampa is an interesting example. They had two top two picks in a row improved signifgently the next season, then made it. Big difference is the support. Tampa has the core vets that we don't St. Louis and Vinny are miles ahead of Horcoff and Hemsky. We simply have more needs and have no, repeat: no realistic chance of aquiring the 1D or 1C we need other than developing them ourselves.

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#128 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 05:43PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Thanks for the link, but what players are you signing off of that list? Modano? Madden? Marleaau? Jason Williams?-His 25 games he played this year would help out.

Plekanec? for 5 mil a year?

Primeau? His 8 pts in 59 games would help this team win a cup this year.

It's a long list, theirs litteraly a dozen+ guys that would have been a great fit.

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#129 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 05:44PM
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Peterborough wrote:

Tampa is an interesting example. They had two top two picks in a row improved signifgently the next season, then made it. Big difference is the support. Tampa has the core vets that we don't St. Louis and Vinny are miles ahead of Horcoff and Hemsky. We simply have more needs and have no, repeat: no realistic chance of aquiring the 1D or 1C we need other than developing them ourselves.

Draft 1C this year, put out an offer sheet to Weber or Yandle.

Fill in the blanks role players.

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#130 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 05:49PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

It's a long list, theirs litteraly a dozen+ guys that would have been a great fit.

Again, though. See the above post with the agent talking to his player. Players do not want to come to a rebuild. No player says:

"Hey, you know, I want to go to an inexperienced team that is in a rebuild and is going to lose for the 2 years that I sign. The poor performance of the team could possibly hurt my chances at another good contract since my stats will suffer."

These are real people that we are talking about with real egos and real feelings of entitlement.

This isn't NHL '09

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#131 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 05:51PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Draft 1C this year, put out an offer sheet to Weber or Yandle.

Fill in the blanks role players.

Fill in the blanks role players is what they did this year and the last 30 posts have been bashing them.

I'm still torn as to whether this is the year for an RFA offer sheet. I'd give it one more year because those are a lot of picks to give up. It could be 4 first round picks. Sounds pretty expensive.

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#132 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 06:01PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Again, though. See the above post with the agent talking to his player. Players do not want to come to a rebuild. No player says:

"Hey, you know, I want to go to an inexperienced team that is in a rebuild and is going to lose for the 2 years that I sign. The poor performance of the team could possibly hurt my chances at another good contract since my stats will suffer."

These are real people that we are talking about with real egos and real feelings of entitlement.

This isn't NHL '09

Flat out lie.

The NYI have made some nice signings the last few years.

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#133 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 06:02PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Fill in the blanks role players is what they did this year and the last 30 posts have been bashing them.

I'm still torn as to whether this is the year for an RFA offer sheet. I'd give it one more year because those are a lot of picks to give up. It could be 4 first round picks. Sounds pretty expensive.

Theirs a big difference between bringing in another teams 5th line center, and real live proven bottom 6'ers.

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#134 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 06:05PM
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The Oilers pursued Manny Malhotra, which is exactly the kind of thing that they should have done. The trouble is that their plan B was Colin Fraser, which is sort of like finding out that you can't afford the filet mignon, and in response going out back to gnaw on something from the dumpster.

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#135 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 06:21PM
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@Wax Man Riley

Losing to pick high is not a plan, it's failure. Chicago missed the playoff 9 of the 10 years before they drafted Kane. It took 10 years for enough draft picks to pan out to contend. Do you believe thus was their plan?

Pittsburgh needed to win the Crosby lottery to turn it around.

"Hey, you know, I want to go to an inexperienced team that is in a rebuild and is going to lose for the 2 years that I sign. The poor performance of the team could possibly hurt my chances at another good contract since my stats will suffer."

or

"Hey, you know my role and playing time were partially limited on that really deep team I played for last season. Maybe a rebuilding team will give me a good chance to get more ice time in a more prominent role so I can demonstrate my value, increase my numbers, and get myself a better contract."

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#136 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:25PM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Flat out lie.

The NYI have made some nice signings the last few years.

Speculation maybe, but no lie.

A lie would be claiming that The Oilers' management have no idea what they are doing and that they are running the organization to the ground on purpose.

Do you actually think that is what is happening? That they hate Katz and this city so much that they want to waste his money and embarrass Edmonton?

Even me, in my limited hockey knowledge, would place a call to every agent on July 1st. Claiming that Tambo and Lowe looked at who is available and decided to go to the bottom of the list is rediculous

Sometimes I just feel like this in here

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#137 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 06:27PM
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@Wax Man Riley

I think only the most conspiracy-minded think that Oilers management is running the team into the ground deliberately. The rest of us adhere to the old "cock-up over conspiracy" view.

(Actually, most of the people who think they're doing it deliberately are the ones who assure us that it's all part of the plan.)

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#138 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:32PM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

Losing to pick high is not a plan, it's failure. Chicago missed the playoff 9 of the 10 years before they drafted Kane. It took 10 years for enough draft picks to pan out to contend. Do you believe thus was their plan?

Pittsburgh needed to win the Crosby lottery to turn it around.

"Hey, you know, I want to go to an inexperienced team that is in a rebuild and is going to lose for the 2 years that I sign. The poor performance of the team could possibly hurt my chances at another good contract since my stats will suffer."

or

"Hey, you know my role and playing time were partially limited on that really deep team I played for last season. Maybe a rebuilding team will give me a good chance to get more ice time in a more prominent role so I can demonstrate my value, increase my numbers, and get myself a better contract."

Hmmmm... you mean like Fraser or Foster?

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#139 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 06:34PM
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@Wax Man Riley

Foster's actually a good example (Fraser isn't, because he was acquired by trade). Now the Oilers just need to apply the same philosophy to players who i. fill a team need, and ii. don't suck.

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#140 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:36PM
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Steve Smith wrote:

I think only the most conspiracy-minded think that Oilers management is running the team into the ground deliberately. The rest of us adhere to the old "cock-up over conspiracy" view.

(Actually, most of the people who think they're doing it deliberately are the ones who assure us that it's all part of the plan.)

Cock-up? Fan of Scottish poetry are you ol' Johnny Lad?

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#141 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 06:39PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Hmmmm... you mean like Fraser or Foster?

Yes! Players like that!

Only those two were clossal failures, which means the guy whos job it was to identify and bring them in also failed.

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#142 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 06:41PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

Speculation maybe, but no lie.

A lie would be claiming that The Oilers' management have no idea what they are doing and that they are running the organization to the ground on purpose.

Do you actually think that is what is happening? That they hate Katz and this city so much that they want to waste his money and embarrass Edmonton?

Even me, in my limited hockey knowledge, would place a call to every agent on July 1st. Claiming that Tambo and Lowe looked at who is available and decided to go to the bottom of the list is rediculous

Sometimes I just feel like this in here

Lie probably wasn't the best word, grasping at straws probably fits better.

You said:

"Players do not want to come to a rebuild"

History tells us that isn't correct.

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#143 Steve Smith
April 04 2011, 06:46PM
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@Wax Man Riley

"Cock-up" gets 4.96 million Google hits. It's a perfectly modern (and cromulent) phrase. But anyway, I was just quoting Bernie Ingham (who is, it's worth noting, also not an old Scot).

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#144 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:50PM
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@Steve Smith

I have never heard that expression before. It just reminds me of the Robert Burns (who is, it's not worth noting, is a Scott) poem "Johnny lad, cock up your beaver"

Best. Title. Ever.

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#145 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:51PM
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@OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F

2 sides to every coin because history tells us that it is correct. Just 2 tiny examples are Malhotra and Guerin.

Something about a kettle being black needs to go here when talking about straws.

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#146 Wax Man Riley
April 04 2011, 06:56PM
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My point to all of this is not to defend TambaLoweni. It is to highlight the challenges of trying to sign players to a rebuild. It isn't as easy as just picking the name and clicking the button.

Once again, we are dealing with real people, with real egos, and real feelings of entitlement.

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#147 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 07:06PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

2 sides to every coin because history tells us that it is correct. Just 2 tiny examples are Malhotra and Guerin.

Something about a kettle being black needs to go here when talking about straws.

Your 2 examples show that not EVERY FA would sign with rebuilding teams, however no one is saying otherwise.

Enough FA's DO sign with rebuilding teams to show that your excuse is weak at best.

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#148 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
April 04 2011, 07:07PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

My point to all of this is not to defend TambaLoweni. It is to highlight the challenges of trying to sign players to a rebuild. It isn't as easy as just picking the name and clicking the button.

Once again, we are dealing with real people, with real egos, and real feelings of entitlement.

Yet lots of other rebuilding teams are able to do it.

Identifying and signing the proper players is a huge part of his job, thus far he's been a colossal failure at it.

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#149 TigerUnderGlass
April 04 2011, 07:12PM
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Wax Man Riley wrote:

My point to all of this is not to defend TambaLoweni. It is to highlight the challenges of trying to sign players to a rebuild. It isn't as easy as just picking the name and clicking the button.

Once again, we are dealing with real people, with real egos, and real feelings of entitlement.

That's nonsense. You're using the fallback of everyone without a valid point - "it's not NHL 2010".

Every year players sign with rebuilding teams. The half dozen guys who said no to the Oilers does not count as history. The problem is that Tambellini targets a player and if it doesn't work out he falls to pieces.

When players say no it's not because of the rebuild, it's not the weather, it's because of Tambelini and Lowe. Even then there are options, and we can count on our management to choose the worst ones.

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#150 dawgbone
April 04 2011, 07:14PM
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Peterborough wrote:

Are you really comapring the programs they have in Atlata and Florida to those in Pitt and Chitown??? Thats just plain irresponsible and surface skimming. Why has Atanta failed repeatedly??? Trading away prospect like Coburn for vets like Zhitnik in a "win now mentality"

Show me were Chicago or Pitt did that or traded away they're top picks like Florida did. To build by the draft right you need a good system to develope the kids we have that now. Those successful draft builders did too. The failures did not. Get where this is going?

Atlanta is failing repeatedly because they traded Coburn for Zhitnik?

Florida picked in the top four 3 years in a row and didn't trade one of them away for 7 years and still never made the playoffs once.

And what on earth do you mean that we have a good system to develop kids? What on earth gives you that impression? Has there been anything done that suggests this system is Chicago/Pitt style rather than Florida/Atlanta?

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