ST's Summer: Pass or Fail?

Lowetide
July 28 2011 03:43PM

When it comes to the relationship between an Edmonton Oilers GM and the fanbase, it can be a rocky road. What's that old song? Thin line between love and hate? What if we took all the anger, fury and confusion out of the conversation and looked at each transaction in a detached fashion? What would it look like?

In order to understand the summer of Tambi, we need to agree on a few facts. This is an enormous summer for the GM, as the future is promised to no man. Just as Tambellini felt a need to flush MacT and Quinn in order to get Tom Renney behind the bench, the Oilers need to improve in a lot of areas in the next 12 months or the night of long knives might have a sequel spring 2012. It's a cruel business. He passed the early tests (like not trading next year's first round pick) but there was a long way to go. With the summer almost done and holidays either underway or in full bloom, it's time to see how well Mr. Tambellini did re-working the roster.

We could see the areas of need a mile away. Let's list them:

  1. A veteran winger to help with PK/PP and guide the kids at evens.
  2. Truculence.
  3. One or more NHL veteran defensemen.
  4. A faceoff man to help with PK and to balance the C position.
  5. A legit option for the moment when goaltending becomes an issue.
  6. Make certain OKC is a strong AHL team again in 11-12

STAYING ON TASK

Tambellini addressed some and ignored others. Let's review the moves one at a time:

  • March 8: Oilers sign NCAA defender Taylor Fedun from Princeton. Addresses OKC and possibly helps the club's defensive depth at the NHL level. He's certainly young enough and offensively talented enough to be considered a legit prospect. Qualifies as a solid move for category 6.
  • March 19: Oilers sign NCAA center Tanner House from Maine A very good signing in a couple of areas. He improves the center position at the pro level and has a scouting report that suggests a nice range of skills. Qualifies in category 4 (should he spend time in the NHL) and category 6.
  • March 30: Oilers sign QMJHL goaltender Olivier Roy to an entry level contract. I don't think this qualifies under any category, just the business of an NHL team deciding to give a player the chance to turn pro in their system. He's unlikely to be much better than a replacement level AHL goaltender.
  • March 31: Oilers sign CIS L Hunter Tremblay from UNB. Qualifies under category 6, although he is a bit of a wildcard. Could surprise.
  • April 1: Oilers sign C Mark Arcobello to a contract. He'll be relied on heavily to deliver points in OKC this season. Qualifies under category 6, and should he have another impressive season there's a chance he'll get some NHL time.
  • April 13: Oilers sign R Tyler Pitlick to an entry level deal. This is a high draft pick who when signed looked like a lock for OKC. However, injuries and a slow recovery make it possilble he stays in junior for another year. Therefore, I'm putting him in the same category as Roy: doesn't qualify in any category.
  • April 18: Oilers sign L Curtis Hamilton to an entry level deal. He's the blue chipper likely to be a Baron in 11-12. Blocked on LW at the big league level by Hall, MPS, Smyth, Hartikainen and others, it'll be Hamilton's job to stay healthy, learn to grind against men and chip in enough offense to be a legit callup option. Qualifies under category 6.
  • April 21: Oilers sign R Cameron Abney to an entry level contract. Big man is very raw and I don't think he qualifies under category 6. He'll probably play much of his rookie season in the ECHL. However, Abney does address category 2 and we should remember that the Oilers value his player type.
  • April 25: Oilers sign D Martin Marincin to an entry level contract. This could be one of those signings we look back on and smile about, although I don't know if he'll play pro or junior this year. A quality prospect with a nice range of skills, possibly qualifies under category 6.
  • April 28: Oilers sign C Anton Lander to an entry level contract. Lander is a perfect fit for the Oilers, with the only gap being the time it takes for him to establish himself as an NHL player. Qualifies in categories 4 and 6.
  • May 29: Oilers sign W Ryan Jones to a two-year deal. Jones got a solid payday for an impressive season based on role and playing time. There is some doubt he can repeat it based on underlying numbers but he's got a contract and a job. Addresses categories 1 and 2.
  • June 15: Oilers sign F Lennert Petrell to a contract. Veteran Finn has the reputation of being an impressive checker and aggressive penalty killer. Qualifies under categories 1, 2 and 6.
  • June 15: Oilers sign F Antti Tyrvainen to a contract. Another Finn! This one is smaller and more truculent. Qualifies under categories 2 and 6.
  • June 26: Oilers acquire L Ryan Smyth from Los Angeles. A trade that took some time to finalize (and still isn't completely out of the woods--we're on day 33) is the centerpiece of summer. Ryan Smyth addresses categories 1 and 2 plus offers the possibility of moving over to center should RNH make the team and need faceoff help. And he's an excellent mentor. The best trade of Tambellini's time as Oilers GM.
  • June 30: Oilers sign D Ladislav Smid to a 2-year deal. This is a signing that addresses categories 2 and 3, and we should credit the organization for not sending him away (to Chicago) at the deadline.
  • July 1: Oilers sign L Ben Eager to a three year contract. Signing that effectively ended the Oiler careers and JF Jacques and Zack Stortini. Addresses category 2.
  • July 1: Oilers sign L Darcy Hordichuk. A very similar signing to the Eager deal, in that the incoming player is an upgrade on the previous player (MacIntyre). Hordichuk is a depth signing but he can play well enough to be a clear upgrade on MacIntyre. Addresses category 2.
  • July 1: Oilers sign D Cam Barker. Edmonton took a risk in signing Barker but he has draft pedigree and should he work out the risk should reward the team richly. Addresses category 3.
  • July 1: Oilers sign C Eric Belanger to a three year deal. A strong free agent signing that gives the roster balance, depth and some hope for the future. Addresses categories 1 and 4 plus he helps in the mentor role I talked about in regard to Ryan Smyth.
  • July 1: Acquired D Andy Sutton from Anaheim. Also subtracted Kurtis Foster in this trade. Sutton is a huge defender, and his acquisition addresses categories 2 and 3 plus he has a history of helping out on the penalty kill.
  • July 1: Oilers sign D Corey Potter. This is one of those under the radar signings that often turns out being much larger than it first appears. Potter is a right-hander with experience, he's interesting in that he's mobile and has size. A player to watch in pre-season.
  • July 3: Oilers sign L Josh Green. Strictly an OKC signing, Green helps out in category 6.
  • July 4: Oilers sign D Theo Peckham. A solid young defender who may have enough ability to move up the depth chart as he matures. Qualifies under categories 2 and 3.
  • July 5: Oilers sign G Yann Danis. Signed as OKC's starter, I believe this player may end up playing a much larger role for the organization. Should DD or NK falter or suffer injury, Danis is the only safety valve available to the organization. The chances of Danis playing more than 20 NHL games this season is very high. Qualifies under categories 5 and 6.
  • July 5: Oilers sign R Ryan Keller. A minor league signing but an important one. Big time AHL scorer could help in the NHL if required but was hired to push that Baron team to a playoff position. Qualifies under category 6.
  • July 12: Oilers trade Andrew Cogliano. The return (2nd rd pick in 2013) is reasonable and the contract Cogs signed in Anaheim suggests that the Oilers were unlikely to come to terms with him. When you consider what Belanger cost the Oilers, an outstanding transaction.
  • July 15: Oilers sign D Taylor Chorney. Puck moving defender still on a learning curve defensively, he qualifies under category 6.
  • July 15: Oilers sign C Ryan O'Marra. Young veteran qualifies under categories 4 and 6. He can help in a depth role and does have some NHL experience.

Let's take a quick look at the categories one more time:

  1. A veteran winger to help with PK/PP and guide the kids at evens. I think they addressed this situation ably by dealing for Smyth. You could also give credit for bringing back Jones and hiring the Finn Petrell. Nice additions across the board, plus they added guys like Josh Green who could play the same role (the Cameron Stewart role from a year ago). I think it's reasonable to suggest the GM gets a passing grade here.
  2. Truculence. No less than 9 additions above have a real edge to their game. Eager and Hordichuk are the obvious ones, but Smyth and defender Sutton are solid additions. I'm not including rfa's like Smid and Peckham but signing them (and sending away a Cogliano) sends a clear message about how difficult this team will be to play against next season. Again, I think a passing grade is in order.
  3. One or more NHL veteran defensemen. Oilers added Barker, Sutton and Potter while retaining Smid, Peckham and Chorney. Added to incumbents Whitney, Gilbert and Petry, I think it's reasonable to suggest that the Oilers have come up short in this area. Depth additions like Sutton married to risk signings like Barker and Potter (risky in that he might not be good enough for NHL play) leave the Oilers without enough quality and depth at a very important position. Still time this summer, but this gets a failing grade.
  4. A faceoff man to help with PK and to balance the C position. Big fly here. Eric Belanger replaces Cogliano and gives the team a veteran hand who can help Horcoff in handling the tough opponents and be a big part of the penalty kill. The organization also added Lander which may be more important to adding balance at the position over the long haul. A definite passing grade.
  5. A legit option for the moment when goaltending becomes an issue. Oilers added veteran Yann Danis and signed Olivier Roy to his entry level deal. I believe Danis could be a pleasant surprise but this position is in dire need of help. If they don't plan on improving the NK-DD duo at the NHL level, then surely the team will add an AHL calibre veteran to the minor league depth chart. Another fail, and again at a vital position.
  6. Make certain OKC is a strong AHL team again in 11-12. With the exception of goaltending, I like the OKC Barons. The blue should be Chorney, Potter, Colten Teubert, Alex Plante, Taylor Fedun added to OKC top man Bryan Helmer. Motin, Martin Marincin and guys like Brandon Davidson are also in the mix. The forwards who should have an impact include Keller, Green, Lander, O'Marra, Petrell, Arcobello added to kids like Teemu Hartikainen and Chris Vande Velde. The team will be young but talented and if they can ride Danis in goal all season they should be a contender for the second season. I won't give it a pass (because of the goaltending) but don't think it's a fail either.

Conclusion: In 6 categories, Tambellini gets 3 passing grades, 2 fails and one tie. Has it been good enough? I don't think so. We find out in the fall (or late summer if they decide to address G and D).

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
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#51 Robin Brownlee
July 28 2011, 10:27PM
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@Quicksilver ballet

OK. Now I'm clear on how it actually works.

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#53 DSF
July 28 2011, 10:51PM
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Those of you lauding Steady with landing Smyth should also bear in mind for that "trade" to be successful Smyth will have to outperform the guy he replaced....Penner.

Sure, in the long run, the Oilers may have won those two transactions if Teubert turns into an actual NHL player, but Smyth is reaching his best before date and Penner could leave Smyth in the dust.

At the end of the day, which team is better?

Smyth, Belanger, Sutton and Hordichuk are nothing more than placeholders on a rebuilding team.

If they help the Oilers to finish 12th instead of 15th...who really cares?

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#54 Max Powers - Team HME Evans
July 28 2011, 11:05PM
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"June 30: Oilers sign D Ladislav Smid to a 2-year deal. This is a signing that addresses categories 2 and 3, and we should credit the organization for not sending him away (to Chicago) at the deadline. "

Smid almost went to Chicago? for what, a 2nd? Don't remember hearing about that.

edit: I am also of the mind that people give Tambo a little too much credit for the Smyth trade, or at least you do LT. I'm trying to sound as un-ignorant as possible here, but I think I coulda made that trade and woulda looked like a genius to Wanye and every other Oiler fan.

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#55 Saytalk
July 28 2011, 11:22PM
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ST gets a pass for this summer, but he passed a very easy test. It's easy to fill holes when there are so many, it's easy to improve a last place team, and it was ST that (to some extent)put them in this awful situation in the first place. Even if this pass was a B+, it would bring ST's GPA as Oilers GM up to a D-.

I really liked the Smyth acquisition, adding Belanger and dumping Cogliano, drafting RNH and two good d-men, signing Barker... but there are still plenty of problems to resolve: cap problems with Horcoff, Gilbert, Khabibulin; a timid defence; a lousy coach; no starting goalie; plateau'ing wuss forwards who are only kept because of their draft pedigree. Let's see what ST does over the course of the year to solve some of these problems.

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#56 Millertide
July 28 2011, 11:34PM
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Just finished watching gm6 scf 2006. Can someone please hold me and tell me the oilers will look that good again? So much will and grit. I promise I will appreciate every minute of it this time.

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#57 Millertide
July 28 2011, 11:36PM
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DSF wrote:

Those of you lauding Steady with landing Smyth should also bear in mind for that "trade" to be successful Smyth will have to outperform the guy he replaced....Penner.

Sure, in the long run, the Oilers may have won those two transactions if Teubert turns into an actual NHL player, but Smyth is reaching his best before date and Penner could leave Smyth in the dust.

At the end of the day, which team is better?

Smyth, Belanger, Sutton and Hordichuk are nothing more than placeholders on a rebuilding team.

If they help the Oilers to finish 12th instead of 15th...who really cares?

Yup you got a point

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#58 Harry
July 28 2011, 11:59PM
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@DSF

Although you are correct that the team most likely hasn't significantly improved, I must say that as a season ticket holder -- I care about moderate improvement. The team won 13 games on home ice last year. If they move up to 12th instead of getting 62 points again, it matters to me. Watching the team win a few more games makes a difference, which may be difficult for some people to understand when they don't go to the games.

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#59 andrewmk20
July 29 2011, 12:15AM
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@DSF

It's not necessarily about where they finish so much as that they are competitive on a night in night out basis. Which means that they aren't completely outclassed which they were in almost 3/4 of the games last year.

I agree though that right now they aren't there yet. I think Oiler fans would obviously be in a better place if Tambi had acquired someone like Emery/Ersberg and a defenceman in the vein of Hannan/Campoli who could fill a role in the top 4, then obviously buy out Khabi and Brule. But it doesn't seem likely that will happen.

I also have a beef with the amount that they signed Barker to. At 2.25M for a buyout player that kind of sucks. A GM should try to get those players at discount so if they do have a good year they're not paying a premium on that player because if Barker plays 80+ games and puts in 30+ pts and plays 20+mins/game then he'll probably command anywhere from 3.5M and up. Whereas if he was on a discount contract ST might have been able to sign him for 2-3M in the range of a Sekera contract because the amount that a player gets as a raise has to be reasonable in negotiations unless they're elite, a la Doughty/Stamkos/Parise etc.

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#60 ed in mada
July 29 2011, 04:02AM
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speeds wrote:

With Khabibulin specifically, it's very tough for fans to know/accurately guess the Oilers internal thoughts on Khabibulin, because they were the ones that signed him to his contract to begin with.

So how do fans know which represents the current thoughts of Edmonton's management?

(a) he's not the goalie they thought they were getting, but you have him and what are you gonna do?

(b) whether they still think he has it in him to be a solid #1?

Actions speek louder than words. DD was the #1 goalie by the end of last year because he was playing better and we shouldn't be so naive as to think the Oil brass don't know that. But they are stuck with NK for the next two years and they have to make the best of it. If they were expecting to be a playoff contending team they might feel a need to do something with NK. So what is left except try to boost his confidence and hope for an unlikley improvement.

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#61 SurfacetoAirMissile
July 29 2011, 06:21AM
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andrewmk20 wrote:

It's not necessarily about where they finish so much as that they are competitive on a night in night out basis. Which means that they aren't completely outclassed which they were in almost 3/4 of the games last year.

I agree though that right now they aren't there yet. I think Oiler fans would obviously be in a better place if Tambi had acquired someone like Emery/Ersberg and a defenceman in the vein of Hannan/Campoli who could fill a role in the top 4, then obviously buy out Khabi and Brule. But it doesn't seem likely that will happen.

I also have a beef with the amount that they signed Barker to. At 2.25M for a buyout player that kind of sucks. A GM should try to get those players at discount so if they do have a good year they're not paying a premium on that player because if Barker plays 80+ games and puts in 30+ pts and plays 20+mins/game then he'll probably command anywhere from 3.5M and up. Whereas if he was on a discount contract ST might have been able to sign him for 2-3M in the range of a Sekera contract because the amount that a player gets as a raise has to be reasonable in negotiations unless they're elite, a la Doughty/Stamkos/Parise etc.

The Oilers can not buy out Khabi because his contract is a +35 deal which states that his salary counts against the cap reguardless if he plays in the minors or retires. So at this point signing another NHL goalie this offseason was not in the cards for Tambo. The Oilers just have to hope Khabi can bounce back this year enough that he can at the very least back up Duby.

As far as buying out Brule, that is still a mystery to me. If Brule was taken out of the Smythe trade because he still has lingering concusion problems and thus can't be bought out then Tambo's hands were tied there too. However, I thought I read he was cleared to play so I am still confused on Brule.

You bring up an interesting point with the Barker contract but I think it is a risk worth taking. If he has a bad year then it is only one year and don't qualify him next year. If he plays well enough to deserve another contract then sign him to a reasonable contract. If it is like you say and the dollars he commands become more than the Oilers think he is worth then trade him for another asset as we got him for nothing and he is still an RFA and Oilers property.

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#62 cableguy - 2nd Tier Fan
July 29 2011, 06:33AM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

Calm down there Daveed.

I said we had all our eggs in this one basket as far as this summers draft is concerned. In admittedly a week draft on the top end this summer, the Oilers may have been better served grabbing both Hopkins and Larsson, lowering the risk of not getting an impact player at the top end of this draft. If that appears greedy then who cares, the Oilers need more GM's wizzed off at the like Lombardi is right now. Tambellini is in the business of building the Oilers a better hockey club and not making buddies league wide. Screw the idea of friendships.

do you just forget the ~~ alot when you post?

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#63 book¡e
July 29 2011, 06:42AM
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DSF wrote:

Those of you lauding Steady with landing Smyth should also bear in mind for that "trade" to be successful Smyth will have to outperform the guy he replaced....Penner.

Sure, in the long run, the Oilers may have won those two transactions if Teubert turns into an actual NHL player, but Smyth is reaching his best before date and Penner could leave Smyth in the dust.

At the end of the day, which team is better?

Smyth, Belanger, Sutton and Hordichuk are nothing more than placeholders on a rebuilding team.

If they help the Oilers to finish 12th instead of 15th...who really cares?

Wrong - here is a more accurate portrayal of how you determine who 'wins' the two trades.

One year of Smyth, Many years of Teubert, many years of Klefbom, and many years of a 3rd round draft pick in 2012.

need to out perform.

One year of Penner and one year of Fraser.

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#64 SurfacetoAirMissile
July 29 2011, 06:42AM
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Saytalk wrote:

ST gets a pass for this summer, but he passed a very easy test. It's easy to fill holes when there are so many, it's easy to improve a last place team, and it was ST that (to some extent)put them in this awful situation in the first place. Even if this pass was a B+, it would bring ST's GPA as Oilers GM up to a D-.

I really liked the Smyth acquisition, adding Belanger and dumping Cogliano, drafting RNH and two good d-men, signing Barker... but there are still plenty of problems to resolve: cap problems with Horcoff, Gilbert, Khabibulin; a timid defence; a lousy coach; no starting goalie; plateau'ing wuss forwards who are only kept because of their draft pedigree. Let's see what ST does over the course of the year to solve some of these problems.

If it is so easy to improve a last place then why have the Islander's sucked for so long? LOL

Lousy coach.... you jest! Take any coach in the league and throw him into the fray last year and watch no improvement happen right before your eyes.

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#66 Chris
July 29 2011, 08:01AM
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My goal for this year is that the Oilers win the last game of the year. Then we don't have to look at that damn "Last Game" losing score in the sidebar of this website ALL summer. Last summer it was a loss to the Flames that sat on the side of my screen for 6 months. I can't take it another summer....

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#67 MrCondor
July 29 2011, 08:36AM
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It takes 2 teams to make a trade, and players have to agree to a signing. Sure there are still a lot of holes in the team, but would anyone here be happy if Tambo grossly overpaid to fill them?

We are a 30th place team in a City that doesn't rank highly on the desirable list. What can you really expect?

Tambo knows what needs to be done, but doing it without overpaying or selling the future can't be easy. It's not like he's going to the store to buy eggs.

I think he made quality moves, but I'm not going to judge him on moves he didn't make.

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#68 LoDog
July 29 2011, 08:40AM
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Lowetide wrote:

14-7 to start the season isn't reasonable. Robin Brownlee's post above helps give us some perspective. 19 points and then 16 points after 21 games the last two seasons.

22 points after 21 games? Is that reasonable for this team? If they post 25 points in 21 games people will be thrilled imo.

I was agreeing with Brownlee. At least I thought I was. :)

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#69 DSF
July 29 2011, 08:41AM
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book¡e wrote:

Wrong - here is a more accurate portrayal of how you determine who 'wins' the two trades.

One year of Smyth, Many years of Teubert, many years of Klefbom, and many years of a 3rd round draft pick in 2012.

need to out perform.

One year of Penner and one year of Fraser.

I did mention that, if Teubert turns into a real hockey player and that would also apply to Klefbom, Steady might be perceived as winning those transactions. A third round draft pick is virtually worthless.

However, since that hasn't happened yet, you can't credit Tambellini with the win and, if Penner lights it up in LA, the pendulum could swing the other way pretty quickly.

Since we are grading THIS offseason, is the team really better with Smyth over Penner?

Maybe...likely not.

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#70 TKB2677
July 29 2011, 08:41AM
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I disagree with Lowtide on not giving Tambo a passing grade on the defence. Here is why.

How many teams would you say could use help on defence? 50% maybe more? The free agent market was extremely week this year especially on defence. With that being said, how are the Oilers supposed to upgrade with little to no free agents to choose from and with at least 50% of the NHL looking for defence. Pretty tall order. Secondly, the subtract of Foster and the addition of Sutton in his place is a huge upgrade in my opinion. Sutton doesn't have a bomb, who cares especially when Foster can't hit the side of a barn with it. But Sutton is an upgrade on everything else over Foster. He is big, nasty, physical, tough, hard to play against, will block shots, can kill penalties and can actually defend. Cam Barker is a bit of a gamble but in my opinion, not much of a gamble. The Oilers defence wasn't very good last year. Even if Barker plays ok, he still upgrades the defence. I agree the Oilers defence is still not championship caliber but it is better than last years. Absolutely it is. So saying Tambo ignored it or fail him doesn't seem fair to me.

The goaltending. I agree he failed so to speak but unless the Oilers are going to bury Habby in the minors for the next few years, there isn't much they can do at the NHL level.

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#71 Snagapuss
July 29 2011, 08:42AM
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alittle off topic but Weber still unsigned, what Chorney,Gibert,Gagnerand a 2nd for Weber and Ellis.

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#73 Snagapuss
July 29 2011, 08:59AM
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Alittle off topic what about like i said Gilbert,Chorney,Gagner and a 2nd round pick for the rights to Shea Webber and Dan Ellis. If need sweeten the pot with another prospect. It would give us our defenceman with a big shot and future one also. Shea WEBBER WOULD COMAND 7.5 MILLION A YEAR FOR SIX YEARS. Your thought on this are?????????????????????

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#74 book¡e
July 29 2011, 08:59AM
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DSF wrote:

I did mention that, if Teubert turns into a real hockey player and that would also apply to Klefbom, Steady might be perceived as winning those transactions. A third round draft pick is virtually worthless.

However, since that hasn't happened yet, you can't credit Tambellini with the win and, if Penner lights it up in LA, the pendulum could swing the other way pretty quickly.

Since we are grading THIS offseason, is the team really better with Smyth over Penner?

Maybe...likely not.

The same argument about THIS season could be made if the trade was Penner for a dozen first overall picks. You need to consider all assets returned in a trade.

Also, a trade should be evaluated for the value of the return at the moment of the return. If Penner has a heart attack tomorrow or Klefbom becomes a superstar it is irrelevant to the trade. You trade for the 'chance'. Its like an unscratched lottery ticket - it's value must be considered to be one dollar because nobody knows what is underneath.

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#75 Rick
July 29 2011, 09:10AM
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I am not seeing the connection between judging the Smyth trade on what Penner does.

There is no evidence that Tambellini was even looking for a Penner replacement and certainly evidence that Tambellini wasn't looking at Smyth when Smyth ended up falling into his lap.

Smyth playing the same position as Penner is as much a coincidence as anything.

....

On a separate topic, have any of the ON Insiders heard anything on Staios or Moreau?

Would Staios be a guy to consider bringing back for the Strudwick role?

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#76 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 09:10AM
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Snagapuss wrote:

Alittle off topic what about like i said Gilbert,Chorney,Gagner and a 2nd round pick for the rights to Shea Webber and Dan Ellis. If need sweeten the pot with another prospect. It would give us our defenceman with a big shot and future one also. Shea WEBBER WOULD COMAND 7.5 MILLION A YEAR FOR SIX YEARS. Your thought on this are?????????????????????

no deal. maybe that much for weber only.

it is my belief that due to our high drafting as of late all of these talented kids are gonna say "show me the money" after three cheap years.

we are gonna require some work by committee on the back end not a high end talent, who wants brinks truck, to fill out the squad and keep us out of cap pergatory.

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#77 Horcsky
July 29 2011, 09:12AM
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I'm confused. I thought Khabbi was not going to tent city.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/07/28/nikolai-khabibulin-to-sample-arizonas-tent-city-jail

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#78 Talbot17
July 29 2011, 09:17AM
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@ Snagapuss:

Go make that trade on NHL 11, the GM there would laugh at you. No one wants all that loose change for one of the best D's in the league

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#79 Talbot17
July 29 2011, 09:23AM
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And I would like to add, Smyth's heart and dedication alone > Penner and what he brings altogether. Not only did they bring in a Vet, an old oil, but Smyth also went to the Cup with us, understands the organization and whats expected of you on and off the ice. This is the intangibles you want the young players to develop now.

I also think Teubert is a steal. This guy in person is a blue collar hard working kid and has a lot of potential.

The goalie situation could be decent, you never know. You got somewhat stronger on the back end from last year and if DD can succeed more then last year, could have a decent outcome.

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#80 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 09:26AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

no deal. maybe that much for weber only.

it is my belief that due to our high drafting as of late all of these talented kids are gonna say "show me the money" after three cheap years.

we are gonna require some work by committee on the back end not a high end talent, who wants brinks truck, to fill out the squad and keep us out of cap pergatory.

Just so we're clear you think the Oil that should turn down a trade of Gilbert+Chorney+Gagner+2nd+ for Weber?

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#81 D-Man
July 29 2011, 09:27AM
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TKB2677 wrote:

I disagree with Lowtide on not giving Tambo a passing grade on the defence. Here is why.

How many teams would you say could use help on defence? 50% maybe more? The free agent market was extremely week this year especially on defence. With that being said, how are the Oilers supposed to upgrade with little to no free agents to choose from and with at least 50% of the NHL looking for defence. Pretty tall order. Secondly, the subtract of Foster and the addition of Sutton in his place is a huge upgrade in my opinion. Sutton doesn't have a bomb, who cares especially when Foster can't hit the side of a barn with it. But Sutton is an upgrade on everything else over Foster. He is big, nasty, physical, tough, hard to play against, will block shots, can kill penalties and can actually defend. Cam Barker is a bit of a gamble but in my opinion, not much of a gamble. The Oilers defence wasn't very good last year. Even if Barker plays ok, he still upgrades the defence. I agree the Oilers defence is still not championship caliber but it is better than last years. Absolutely it is. So saying Tambo ignored it or fail him doesn't seem fair to me.

The goaltending. I agree he failed so to speak but unless the Oilers are going to bury Habby in the minors for the next few years, there isn't much they can do at the NHL level.

I agree with you... Considering we're still in the 2nd year of the rebuild - I believe Tambo is going to keep a close eye on OKC to see if Teubert/Plante/Chorney/Petry emerge as viable NHL options. With the additions of Sutton and Barker, I'm not 100% sure Petry will start as an Oiler. He needs 18 to 20 minutes a game to continue his development and he won't get that with Whitney/Gilbert/Barker/Smid/Peckham ahead of him on the depth chart. Tambo also has Marincin and Klefbom in the wings - I think he's going to wait this year and see how his pipeline of d-men develops...

Khabby's contract is what ties Tambo's hands... Ray Emery is available, which would be a decent backup option to DD, but I don't think Tambo is willing to bury Khabby in OKC yet. After Khabby repays his debt to society - the magnifying glass will be on him big time... If he can regain a save percentage of .900 to .910 and keep his goals against below 3; we'll see him play 35 - 40 games this year. If not, I think we can see him in OKC for the last year of his contract.

Tambo gets a B for the "Summer of Steve" part deux, in my opinion.

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#82 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 09:33AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Just so we're clear you think the Oil that should turn down a trade of Gilbert+Chorney+Gagner+2nd+ for Weber?

newman!

if it means that we need to sign weber to a 5+ year contract at over 7.5 then yes. anything less then no i do not think it is a bad deal..definite sweetner needed.

how in the world are we going to sign hall, eberle, rnh, mps, lander, musil, klefbom etc...and still have a long term contract at high cap hit?

i like weber but, yes, i do think that we are better off at keeping the offense high end and the back end committie based.

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#83 DSF
July 29 2011, 09:34AM
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book¡e wrote:

The same argument about THIS season could be made if the trade was Penner for a dozen first overall picks. You need to consider all assets returned in a trade.

Also, a trade should be evaluated for the value of the return at the moment of the return. If Penner has a heart attack tomorrow or Klefbom becomes a superstar it is irrelevant to the trade. You trade for the 'chance'. Its like an unscratched lottery ticket - it's value must be considered to be one dollar because nobody knows what is underneath.

You also need to take into account the relative positions of the teams involved in the trades.

With LA just entering their window to win, none of Teubert, Klefbom or the included third round pick have much value to them anytime soon.

In effect, the two transactions provided LA with Penner and, with Smyth gone, the cap room to trade for Mike Richards so it's pretty tough to argue they didn't improve their team.

For the Oilers, one year of Smyth is likely not an upgrade on one year of Penner so the value is in Teubert and Klefbom.

In your scenario, Teubert and Klefbom are worth a dollar.

Can't say I disagree with that.

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#84 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 09:58AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

newman!

if it means that we need to sign weber to a 5+ year contract at over 7.5 then yes. anything less then no i do not think it is a bad deal..definite sweetner needed.

how in the world are we going to sign hall, eberle, rnh, mps, lander, musil, klefbom etc...and still have a long term contract at high cap hit?

i like weber but, yes, i do think that we are better off at keeping the offense high end and the back end committie based.

Interesting.

I wouldn't worry too much about potentially losing the Landers, Musils, Klefboms if we were bringin in Weber.

~How on earth did teams like the Wings and Bruins keep high end depth when they were paying an elite dman 7+ million???.... with a lower salary cap~

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#85 book¡e
July 29 2011, 10:16AM
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@DSF

So, you are saying that its basically Klefbom, Teubert, and a 3rd round draft pick for Fraser?

Sounds good to me.

As per the relative positions of the team, that affects the relative value of the assets to each of the teams involved, but it does not affect the absolute value of the assets traded.

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#86 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 10:16AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

Interesting.

I wouldn't worry too much about potentially losing the Landers, Musils, Klefboms if we were bringin in Weber.

~How on earth did teams like the Wings and Bruins keep high end depth when they were paying an elite dman 7+ million???.... with a lower salary cap~

sarcasm duly noted...i wish i could get you to approve my opinion before i post it. ~being wrong sucks~

so what do you think the value of those players i mentioned are worth? 2-3 mil a year or 4-5 per player?

the wings have payment by committee. they have self imposed ceiling and the players have live within that if they wish to stay in detroit.

if savard wasn't on long term where would the cap be for them?

i happen to be thinking about the potential as very good for our prospects therefore being worth a certain amount of money in due time.

i'd like to see what those young d-men can bring us.

i simply don't put as much value in the big money dman as you do...i think we got potential.

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#87 Ender
July 29 2011, 10:22AM
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Horcsky wrote:

I'm confused. I thought Khabbi was not going to tent city.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/07/28/nikolai-khabibulin-to-sample-arizonas-tent-city-jail

No one was sure where he was going - just that it was to be an "Arizona jail". People assumed that meant he was looking to arrange a more hospitable set of accommodations.

Even with the Journal article cited here, I don't know if it's set in stone. They've got some quotes from the Sheriff that runs the place and a former inmate, but nothing from Khabbi, his lawyer, or a judge confirming the destination. Could be a reporter jumping the gun to get first crack at the story.

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#88 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 10:23AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

sarcasm duly noted...i wish i could get you to approve my opinion before i post it. ~being wrong sucks~

so what do you think the value of those players i mentioned are worth? 2-3 mil a year or 4-5 per player?

the wings have payment by committee. they have self imposed ceiling and the players have live within that if they wish to stay in detroit.

if savard wasn't on long term where would the cap be for them?

i happen to be thinking about the potential as very good for our prospects therefore being worth a certain amount of money in due time.

i'd like to see what those young d-men can bring us.

i simply don't put as much value in the big money dman as you do...i think we got potential.

A good chunk of the players you posted will be busts or role players so their value will be neglible or 0.

I think it's funny how many people think adding an elite big ticket player is a bad thing.

All the top teams have multiple players earning big dollars.

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#89 Love Monkey
July 29 2011, 10:24AM
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Not a big Olivier Roy fan, eh Lowetide??

On the defense issue, while I agree that there's more work to be done, my barometer for Tambellini’s performance is really “did the team get better at the position?” I think they did improve the back end. Maybe they only improved from ‘worst in the NHL’ to merely ‘bottom third of the league’. At this point in the team’s progression, I can live with that while our stable of solid prospects hone their skills for a couple years.

Next year, I’ll expect more improvement and over the next couple years, I’ll expect to see a high-level, emerging squad that includes several of our in-house talents starting to make a splash.

I think asking for Tambellini to completely turn around the D-corps is an unreasonable expectation. But expecting him to make them better is reasonable and I think he accomplished that and now we’ll wait to see if Sutton and Barker vindicate Tambi.

As for the other categories, I think he made pretty good moves across the board and it was refreshing to see him be so active and decisive.

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#90 Love Monkey
July 29 2011, 10:27AM
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@Ender

The judge ruled that he could serve his time in tent city's more luxurious wing and that he'll be "free" (presumably to train) on a work release program from 9am to 9pm on weekdays.

He apparently does have to serve the entire weekends in the prison but he will avoid wearing the famous pink undies as long as he follows all of the prison rules, etc.

Nice work Mr. Lawyer!

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#91 DSF
July 29 2011, 10:29AM
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book¡e wrote:

So, you are saying that its basically Klefbom, Teubert, and a 3rd round draft pick for Fraser?

Sounds good to me.

As per the relative positions of the team, that affects the relative value of the assets to each of the teams involved, but it does not affect the absolute value of the assets traded.

That's is a simplistic way to look at it.

The absolute value of Klefbom and Tuebert is currently zero since they are not NHL players and I would argue Fraser isn't either.

If you stand back and assess which team is better now than before those transaction I think you have to give the nod to the Kings since they gave up assets of no value to them and ended up with Penner and Richards.

Of course, they gave up assets to get Richards but they could not have swung that trade nearly as easily with Smyth's contract on the books.

Pretty tough to argue the Oilers are a better team in the near future unless Smyth's intangibles have significant impact.

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#92 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 10:30AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

A good chunk of the players you posted will be busts or role players so their value will be neglible or 0.

I think it's funny how many people think adding an elite big ticket player is a bad thing.

All the top teams have multiple players earning big dollars.

i don't remember saying i am anti-elite big ticket player...hmmm...hall won't be big ticket one day?

where we are today as a team it doesn't make sense to me...rosters and standings are fluid so my opinion could change. if that's ok?

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#93 TigerUnderGlass
July 29 2011, 10:37AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

sarcasm duly noted...i wish i could get you to approve my opinion before i post it. ~being wrong sucks~

so what do you think the value of those players i mentioned are worth? 2-3 mil a year or 4-5 per player?

the wings have payment by committee. they have self imposed ceiling and the players have live within that if they wish to stay in detroit.

if savard wasn't on long term where would the cap be for them?

i happen to be thinking about the potential as very good for our prospects therefore being worth a certain amount of money in due time.

i'd like to see what those young d-men can bring us.

i simply don't put as much value in the big money dman as you do...i think we got potential.

I'm confused. What does Savard have to do with the Wings or their cap situation?

As for the idea of a "big money dman" - Hasn't history demonstrated nicely that it's harder with win a cup without one? A few teams have managed, but the bulk of teams winning it all have a high en defender eating minutes.

Here is a question for you - if Klefbom turned into as good a player as Weber would you trade him away, for a deal like the one you suggested the Oilers should turn down, to avoid having to pay so much money to a high end defender?

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#94 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 10:52AM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

I'm confused. What does Savard have to do with the Wings or their cap situation?

As for the idea of a "big money dman" - Hasn't history demonstrated nicely that it's harder with win a cup without one? A few teams have managed, but the bulk of teams winning it all have a high en defender eating minutes.

Here is a question for you - if Klefbom turned into as good a player as Weber would you trade him away, for a deal like the one you suggested the Oilers should turn down, to avoid having to pay so much money to a high end defender?

savard was in relation to the bruins query.

yes you are correct history has demonstrated as such in some cases. i never said anything anywhere thats states i am opposed to this approach, but what i did say and what i am saying is that currently today i don't think weber long term, IMO, works.

klefbom is will be an in house solution, potentially, and possibly grow into that end role when the team needs him the most. would i pay him weber money if that is the case? sure, maybe ,possibly, not sure...ask me again when it matters.

i'm cool with the debate, i actually enjoy it. it is good to learn from smart people. what i realize and everyone else needs to realize tho is that i am an everyday guy with no GM experience or high end hockey skill that has a plethora of experience use in my assessments...i'm just a guy who LOVES hockey and the OILERS. it't just my opinion and i'm entitled to it.

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#95 TigerUnderGlass
July 29 2011, 11:01AM
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@mayorpoop

i'm just a guy who LOVES hockey and the OILERS. it't just my opinion and i'm entitled to it.

Nobody has disputed your right to you opinion.

Why do people suddenly jump to "It's my opinion" when people disagree? When you post your opinion in a public forum people have a right to, and will, disagree with it, knowing full well that it is "just your opinion".

It's just a conversation about hockey, please don't take disagreement personally.

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#96 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 11:03AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

i don't remember saying i am anti-elite big ticket player...hmmm...hall won't be big ticket one day?

where we are today as a team it doesn't make sense to me...rosters and standings are fluid so my opinion could change. if that's ok?

I don't rember it either, however I do remember you imply that you were anti-adding elite big ticket player.

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#97 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 11:05AM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

I'm confused. What does Savard have to do with the Wings or their cap situation?

As for the idea of a "big money dman" - Hasn't history demonstrated nicely that it's harder with win a cup without one? A few teams have managed, but the bulk of teams winning it all have a high en defender eating minutes.

Here is a question for you - if Klefbom turned into as good a player as Weber would you trade him away, for a deal like the one you suggested the Oilers should turn down, to avoid having to pay so much money to a high end defender?

This exactly sums up what is so intersting about this topic.

"if Klefbom turned into as good a player as Weber would you trade him away, for a deal like the one you suggested the Oilers should turn down, to avoid having to pay so much money to a high end defender?"

It seems we always way over value whats already here vs what we could have.

For example I bet most would hesitate using an RFA offer of 4 x 1st to aquire Tavares, yet those same people would prefer to lock up Hall rather then lose him for 4 x 1st.

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#98 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 11:08AM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:
i'm just a guy who LOVES hockey and the OILERS. it't just my opinion and i'm entitled to it.

Nobody has disputed your right to you opinion.

Why do people suddenly jump to "It's my opinion" when people disagree? When you post your opinion in a public forum people have a right to, and will, disagree with it, knowing full well that it is "just your opinion".

It's just a conversation about hockey, please don't take disagreement personally.

sorry. that wasn't meant like that or at least certainly towards you.

that is a statement directed at anyone who gives the ol'~~ about someone else's opinion.

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#99 mayorpoop
July 29 2011, 11:10AM
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OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F wrote:

I don't rember it either, however I do remember you imply that you were anti-adding elite big ticket player.

you read that i implied such. let's clear this up...i AM anti-weber right now.

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#100 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
July 29 2011, 11:17AM
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mayorpoop wrote:

sorry. that wasn't meant like that or at least certainly towards you.

that is a statement directed at anyone who gives the ol'~~ about someone else's opinion.

I didn't ~~ your opinion.

I ~~ the notion that we wouldn't be able to afford other talented players because of one, big ticket Dman.

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