FIRST, THE GOOD NEWS . . .

Robin Brownlee
October 16 2012 05:37PM

It's nice to see Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr finally put an end to all the dick measuring that's gone on during the NHL lockout by way of today's news the NHLPA finally has a new proposal to contemplate.

While the offer put forward by Bettman after a protracted period in which both sides seemed content to let the other make the first move, resulting in zero meaningful discussions, likely won't be embraced with open arms by Fehr and the PA, it's at least a talking point.

Bettman's offer, notably featuring a 50-50 split in hockey related revenue – is there a truer definition of a partnership than 50-50? – and a full-season of 82 games with a Nov. 2 start (I don’t see it getting done that fast), will take some massaging to get the PA to capitulate, but there seems to be a willingness to talk now. That's the good news.

The bad news, speaking of dick measuring, is today's word that Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz has no intention of appearing before city council to meet the Oct. 17 deadline imposed by mayor Stephen Mandel – Katz made that clear in a letter today, leaving the mayor and councilors to follow up on what was basically a "meet with us or else" edict.

I imagine we'll find out the "or else" in the next few days – hands up fans willing to let Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins blow town in the hope what's left of the Phoenix/Florida/Columbus roster will move here after the city builds an arena on its own -- but that's a whole other item.

LET'S MAKE A DEAL

"From what I read on twitter I think it’s a good sign," Oiler captain Shawn Horcoff told Jim Matheson of The Journal when discussing the proposal put forth today.

"It’s a start. I really think it’s their (owners) first real showing of interest in getting a deal done. The chances of us taking this one right now and signing off on it is pretty unlikely…that’s not the way it works, but hopefully it’s the grounds for a counter-proposal and more talk on the issues."

At this point, meaningful negotiation and grounds for a counter-proposal by the NHLPA is about the best fans can ask for. At the very least, today's news provides a shred of hope, even if talk of a Nov. 2 start and a full schedule seems optimistic in the extreme, after weeks when there's been very little.

I was busy slapping in windshields in my shop today and hadn't taken a glance at my phone or the internet when I got an e-mail from a staunch Oilers fan I know. "Hockey is back (maybe)," he wrote, which got my attention.

The return the NHL remains a very big "maybe" and there's still an awful lot of negotiating to do, but today's CBA news seemed a ray of light compared to what we're hearing on the downtown arena front.

Talk is good, even if it's cheap. No talk? Not so much.

Listen to Robin Brownlee Wednesdays and Thursdays from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. on the Jason Gregor Show on TEAM 1260.

Aceb4a1816f5fa09879a023b07d1a9b4
A sports writer since 1983, including stints at The Edmonton Journal and The Sun 1989-2007, I happily co-host the Jason Gregor Show on TSN 1260 twice a week and write when so inclined. Have the best damn lawn on the internet. Most important, I am Sam's dad. Follow me on Twitter at Robin_Brownlee. Or don't.
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#1 Dave
October 16 2012, 07:47PM
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Sanaa Montana wrote:

Judging from my expierence and gathered knowledge, people who run this city and spend its money are idiots. Im with Katz on this one. Move the team, then we'll see how the city will generate income from its drunks.

Were you drunk when you put out this blog ?

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#2 boxman
October 16 2012, 09:51PM
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DSF you are truly special and one of a kind. I so wish you could be cloned. That way one of you could live with Bettman. One of you with Horcoff. One of you with Katz. One of you with Mandel. Oh and one of you to live with you so you can quickly, if somewhat painfully, comprehend what it is like enduring your negativity.

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#3 v-man
October 17 2012, 12:07AM
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Morgie99 wrote:

With all due Respect Robin, do you honestly think Katz has been a fair negotiator?

Yes, it would be ideal if they came to an agreement that made sense, but Katz' actions and comments time and again, reveal he has not been IMO

How do you come to an equitable agreement when one side is unreasonable?

Just simply cave, and give them everything they want?

I think council has bent over backwards to make this work, and put a lot of political goodwill on the line in the process

It comes time in any negotiation to say, we can't go any farther, and it's up to the other partner to agree or move on.

I believe that stage has been reached.

And the city building the whole thing isn't an answer either, since the big thing for NHL teams is to manage a building, and reap all the revenues.

By managing a building or sharing it with another pro team like the NBA, those NHL teams can deduct up to 35% of their share of HRR to the NHL. the Calgary Flames for instance get to deduct up to 20 mill from their share of HRR since they Manage their building.

As well, even if the Oilers moved and we attracted another NHL team, they too would want all arena revenues.

To me that is nonsensical for the city to pay all the construction costs and hand over all arena revenues too an NHL team, but that's the NHL model. Too rich for my liking

M-99 You may be willing to tie yourself into a binding deal for 35 yrs with zero cost certainty but I doubt Katz will. He didn't get to where he is by being stupid and allowing a bully-boy city council to out-gun him and a provincial gov't to put him and Edmonton on the pay-no-mind list.

The whole attitude of the city would give me pause entering into such a partnership. Frankly, Edmonton doesn't deserve to be on any map. This is not a forward thinking city. The anti-business administrations past and present have kept Edmonton in the shadows behind Calgary's growth and what seems to be to me,, at least, a more progressive outlook. The ghosts of Pervis and Jan Reimer will haunt this city for ever.

Soldier on me hearties. This brain-fart performance by council may be E-town's epitaph.

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#4 Russ99
October 16 2012, 05:45PM
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Nobody's moving into a cut-rate city built arena run by Northlands. That's what got us into this mess.

I hope the mayor/city council and Katz do some negotiating toward a deal benifitting everyone that both can live with rather than all this negotiating and posturing in the press which helps nobody.

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#5 mouthbreather
October 16 2012, 05:45PM
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Not during the lockout!

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#6 nathan
October 16 2012, 05:53PM
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At the end of the 2nd period stupid empty bluffs are now: Katz 1 Mandel 1

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#7 Fresh Mess
October 16 2012, 06:15PM
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The NHLPA won't agree to this very fair proposal, we're talking about Donald Fehr here.

The owners have already budged too far, if they give anymore they will pretty much be setting up the next labour stoppage to fix the problems within a decade.

Hopefully this is the end of the arena deal. It was a horrible deal for the Edmonton taxpayers to begin with, and was just going to get worse. Even the Seattle deal is much better for the taxpayer in comparison, although still unethical.

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#8 Dave
October 16 2012, 06:26PM
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Russ99 wrote:

Nobody's moving into a cut-rate city built arena run by Northlands. That's what got us into this mess.

I hope the mayor/city council and Katz do some negotiating toward a deal benifitting everyone that both can live with rather than all this negotiating and posturing in the press which helps nobody.

Yes I agree that Northlands really screwed up by suggesting a renovated Northlands. They should have been willing to scuttle Rexall Place for the right to manage the new facility.

My view is that if the city owns the Arena then the Oilers should be a tenant. I have never been a fan of Northlands ,,, but they deserve a shot at running the new Arena.

I see that Bob Stauffer wants Bettman to come in and save the day for Katz ... not going to happen . Katz has zero political clout left.

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#9 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 06:28PM
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Katz - "Before we can sign a 35 year location agreement and invest more than a quarter of a Billion Dollars into a new Arena that the city will own, we need a solution that makes economic sense" "With more time and political leadership, this project can still be saved" What on Gods green Earth is Katz talking about, it is frankly borderline delusional at best! He suggests he's investing $250 million into an arena, how? By my account Katz has or is to spend the following: - 30 mill for land purchase of greyhound station (not an arena investment) - sold arena land to the city for 79 mill (not an arena investment) - is pledging 25 mill for a pedway (Arena investment) - paying rent of 5.5 mill for 35 years, subsidized in the first ten years by 2 mill from the city for advertising (Arena investment) - responsible for Capitol expense and maintenance (arena investment but not for initial construction) - wants a subsidy of 6 mill/year (not an arena investment) - receives naming rights revenue for building (not an arena investment) - receives all profits for building except for a month for CFR (not an arena investment) So how is Katz investing $250 mill into the arena? From what I see, he's making money off that deal, gobs of it! Is he counting capitol expense and cost to run the facility over it's length, despite ignoring he's getting 100% of revenue? Is he counting the development and land costs for greyhound station area, where he is building a property he can make money from? Is he counting the purchase price of the hockey team for $200 million, making it an asset he can own, and sell for a profit to someone else at anytime? Where's the $250 mill investment? If the city gets no revenue from building, what is the advantage of owning it, especially after 35 years? Did council take notice of the Seattle arena deal, which has the developer buy back the arena from the city so they aren't stuck with a 35 year old decrepit building? Katz suggests he's providing some advantage to the city, which he isn't, and that the city is benefiting by owning it despite getting no money from it, ridiculous! Katz suggests he wants a fair deal for himself, yet he's putting very little money into the project, compared to the overall cost of building the facility, almost none of it up front, and now wants us to pay him a susbsidy to reap all the profits, while the city is also building an LRT station, etc. The man truly is delusional! So what now? Let this project die or build an arena ourselves? If the city built the arena themselves, it isn't lucrative for Katz, unless he gets to either manage the building or receive all the revenues from it. In fact, if Katz moved the Oilers, the NHL revenue model would expect the city to hand over 100% of profits to that NHL team as well! The way NHL Hockey Related Revenue works or HRR, is it allows teams to deduct up to 35% of revenues from HRR, if they share the building with another pro team, or they manage the building themselves. For example, the Calgary Flames get to deduct 20 mill from their HRR contribution to the NHL to split with players since they manage their building. Consequently, Katz won't be interested in just paying rent, HE WANTS IT ALL. The City would be foolish to build an arena themselves and hand over all profits to Katz for rent. Political leadership, who is Katz kidding. I haven't agreed with the original deal, but can admit there has been HUGE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, that is a slap in the face by Katz and simply untrue. He had a fair deal, and wants more. It seems to me, this project has to mercifully end and die. The NHL expects way too much, and as a sports fan I'm out growing the NHL at this rate.

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#10 DonDon
October 16 2012, 06:30PM
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On the bad news story -- Just when things seemed to be looking up, Katz tosses a hand grenade into the negotiations for a downtown arena. Wow!

Katz seems tone-deaf on how to deal with municipal politicians and get the support of the public. No clue.

Makes one wonder what his end game is. I don't believe there is a deal available in North America that would suit Katz. It happened once in Pittsburgh, but this is now. There is no fairy Godmother casino deal anywhere. With the economy, it is difficult or next to impossible for municipalities to substantially finance new sports facilities for pro team owners.

City Hall should build the downtown arena and let Katz go fishing for a new home. By the time the downtown arena is completed the NHL may consider either transferring a sunbelt team to Edmonton or offer it an expansion team. Or get a new owner. The City should talk to Bettman.

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#12 boxman
October 16 2012, 07:18PM
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I have been an oiler supporter since the WHA days. I had 4 season tickets in the heydays and gave them up because of Peter Pocklington's ethics. Now instead of being allowed to be a fan again I am dealing with arrogant players and owners. Frankly if Mr. Katz can get a better deal elsewhere I say go for it. No blame. Just go. I will not bet my mood on this greedy group anymore and I think many feel the same. Players, enjoy tax free Russia. Mr. Katz go enjoy your grand opportunities elsewhere. All of you take your incredible feelings of entitlement and please leave. People who think Edmonton will be a shell of its former self need to get lives!!!

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#13 Tarus
October 16 2012, 07:22PM
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@Robin Brownlee

Won't be Columbus.

They just got a sweetheart "no rent" deal from the city/state as part of the sale that made the arena a publicly owned venue.

They also agreed to stay till 2039.

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#14 Sanaa Montana
October 16 2012, 07:23PM
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Judging from my expierence and gathered knowledge, people who run this city and spend its money are idiots. Im with Katz on this one. Move the team, then we'll see how the city will generate income from its drunks.

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#15 Reality Check to the head
October 16 2012, 07:25PM
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@ Morgie99

Its called a return key, try using it to frame your thoughts.

In reading the letter from Katz today, I have to say that I was surprised that there seemed to be some digging at the political leadership of the city. Being a politician is hard, you have to way the interests of your entire populace with the interests of the city moving forward. I guess they call that fence sitting.

It is my hope that the city moves forward with this ownership group in building the arena, watching the Oilers be the worst team in the league for the last 3 years in a row was terrible, but watching them walk out of town will be unbearable.

I will be interested in a watching the players reaction to this proposal. Truthfully, a 50/50 revenue sharing agreement is a true partnership. The deal will never get done in time to start the season Nov 2nd. I see a 65-60 game schedule being implemented, starting near the end of November or early december.

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#16 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 07:26PM
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Robin Brownlee wrote:

So, screw Katz? See ya, RNH, Hall and Eberle etc? No worries. Edmonton (maybe) gets . . . Phoenix . . . CBJ, Florida?

Not my idea of a suitable outcome when there's no need for it if both sides would get down to business.

With all due Respect Robin, do you honestly think Katz has been a fair negotiator?

Yes, it would be ideal if they came to an agreement that made sense, but Katz' actions and comments time and again, reveal he has not been IMO

How do you come to an equitable agreement when one side is unreasonable?

Just simply cave, and give them everything they want?

I think council has bent over backwards to make this work, and put a lot of political goodwill on the line in the process

It comes time in any negotiation to say, we can't go any farther, and it's up to the other partner to agree or move on.

I believe that stage has been reached.

And the city building the whole thing isn't an answer either, since the big thing for NHL teams is to manage a building, and reap all the revenues.

By managing a building or sharing it with another pro team like the NBA, those NHL teams can deduct up to 35% of their share of HRR to the NHL. the Calgary Flames for instance get to deduct up to 20 mill from their share of HRR since they Manage their building.

As well, even if the Oilers moved and we attracted another NHL team, they too would want all arena revenues.

To me that is nonsensical for the city to pay all the construction costs and hand over all arena revenues too an NHL team, but that's the NHL model. Too rich for my liking

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#17 Sanaa Montana
October 16 2012, 07:39PM
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Reality Check to the head wrote:

@ Morgie99

Its called a return key, try using it to frame your thoughts.

In reading the letter from Katz today, I have to say that I was surprised that there seemed to be some digging at the political leadership of the city. Being a politician is hard, you have to way the interests of your entire populace with the interests of the city moving forward. I guess they call that fence sitting.

It is my hope that the city moves forward with this ownership group in building the arena, watching the Oilers be the worst team in the league for the last 3 years in a row was terrible, but watching them walk out of town will be unbearable.

I will be interested in a watching the players reaction to this proposal. Truthfully, a 50/50 revenue sharing agreement is a true partnership. The deal will never get done in time to start the season Nov 2nd. I see a 65-60 game schedule being implemented, starting near the end of November or early december.

Being politician is not hard, it is one of the easiest jobs in the world. Weight the intrest of your entire populace? How many people ride their bikes for how many months in the city? How many take a drive down Whytemud to look at shiny balls?

NHLPA and its members are a bunch of goofs and manginas anyway, they'll just waste time and think they're special for one reason or another. Players like Horcoff, Heatley, Lecavalier and so on, should only be allowed to have a say in the matter when they have played up to their worth of the contract. They want the owners to honour the contracts, I cant remember when they last time Horcoff played 7 million dollars worth of hockey or Lecavalier for his 10.

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#18 Sanaa Montana
October 16 2012, 07:54PM
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@Dave

No, I was horny and masterbating. Why?

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#19 Dave
October 16 2012, 07:57PM
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@Sanaa Montana

No problem then ...

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#20 TonyT
October 16 2012, 08:06PM
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The city should just build it and be done with it. Went to Calgary last week for the first time in years, and frankly I'm annoyed with what they've been able to accomplish in the last 5 years. City Council get something done!

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#21 TigerUnderGlass
October 16 2012, 08:29PM
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TonyT wrote:

The city should just build it and be done with it. Went to Calgary last week for the first time in years, and frankly I'm annoyed with what they've been able to accomplish in the last 5 years. City Council get something done!

What is it you imagine Calgary has accomplished in the last 5 years? Calgary is a constant disaster.

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#22 Butters
October 16 2012, 08:37PM
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I am not certain why Katz decided to alienate his allies on council. Now I am not certain he has any. Regardless, we need a new arena, so let's get after it.

Option 1, make a deal within the agreed framework with some give and take.

Option 2, the city goes at it alone and concedes game day revenue and a 1 dollar lease to the Oilers/Oil Kings.

Option 2 isn't that sexy as somewhere down the line, Katz or a new owner will ask for all the revenue.

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#23 DSF
October 16 2012, 08:46PM
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Morgie99 wrote:

Katz - "Before we can sign a 35 year location agreement and invest more than a quarter of a Billion Dollars into a new Arena that the city will own, we need a solution that makes economic sense" "With more time and political leadership, this project can still be saved" What on Gods green Earth is Katz talking about, it is frankly borderline delusional at best! He suggests he's investing $250 million into an arena, how? By my account Katz has or is to spend the following: - 30 mill for land purchase of greyhound station (not an arena investment) - sold arena land to the city for 79 mill (not an arena investment) - is pledging 25 mill for a pedway (Arena investment) - paying rent of 5.5 mill for 35 years, subsidized in the first ten years by 2 mill from the city for advertising (Arena investment) - responsible for Capitol expense and maintenance (arena investment but not for initial construction) - wants a subsidy of 6 mill/year (not an arena investment) - receives naming rights revenue for building (not an arena investment) - receives all profits for building except for a month for CFR (not an arena investment) So how is Katz investing $250 mill into the arena? From what I see, he's making money off that deal, gobs of it! Is he counting capitol expense and cost to run the facility over it's length, despite ignoring he's getting 100% of revenue? Is he counting the development and land costs for greyhound station area, where he is building a property he can make money from? Is he counting the purchase price of the hockey team for $200 million, making it an asset he can own, and sell for a profit to someone else at anytime? Where's the $250 mill investment? If the city gets no revenue from building, what is the advantage of owning it, especially after 35 years? Did council take notice of the Seattle arena deal, which has the developer buy back the arena from the city so they aren't stuck with a 35 year old decrepit building? Katz suggests he's providing some advantage to the city, which he isn't, and that the city is benefiting by owning it despite getting no money from it, ridiculous! Katz suggests he wants a fair deal for himself, yet he's putting very little money into the project, compared to the overall cost of building the facility, almost none of it up front, and now wants us to pay him a susbsidy to reap all the profits, while the city is also building an LRT station, etc. The man truly is delusional! So what now? Let this project die or build an arena ourselves? If the city built the arena themselves, it isn't lucrative for Katz, unless he gets to either manage the building or receive all the revenues from it. In fact, if Katz moved the Oilers, the NHL revenue model would expect the city to hand over 100% of profits to that NHL team as well! The way NHL Hockey Related Revenue works or HRR, is it allows teams to deduct up to 35% of revenues from HRR, if they share the building with another pro team, or they manage the building themselves. For example, the Calgary Flames get to deduct 20 mill from their HRR contribution to the NHL to split with players since they manage their building. Consequently, Katz won't be interested in just paying rent, HE WANTS IT ALL. The City would be foolish to build an arena themselves and hand over all profits to Katz for rent. Political leadership, who is Katz kidding. I haven't agreed with the original deal, but can admit there has been HUGE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, that is a slap in the face by Katz and simply untrue. He had a fair deal, and wants more. It seems to me, this project has to mercifully end and die. The NHL expects way too much, and as a sports fan I'm out growing the NHL at this rate.

Oh, Jesus.

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#24 DSF
October 16 2012, 08:49PM
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boxman wrote:

I have been an oiler supporter since the WHA days. I had 4 season tickets in the heydays and gave them up because of Peter Pocklington's ethics. Now instead of being allowed to be a fan again I am dealing with arrogant players and owners. Frankly if Mr. Katz can get a better deal elsewhere I say go for it. No blame. Just go. I will not bet my mood on this greedy group anymore and I think many feel the same. Players, enjoy tax free Russia. Mr. Katz go enjoy your grand opportunities elsewhere. All of you take your incredible feelings of entitlement and please leave. People who think Edmonton will be a shell of its former self need to get lives!!!

Edmonton is already a shell of its former self.

That's why all the head offices have moved to Calgary, Vancouver or Mississauga.

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#25 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 08:51PM
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Sanaa Montana wrote:

Being politician is not hard, it is one of the easiest jobs in the world. Weight the intrest of your entire populace? How many people ride their bikes for how many months in the city? How many take a drive down Whytemud to look at shiny balls?

NHLPA and its members are a bunch of goofs and manginas anyway, they'll just waste time and think they're special for one reason or another. Players like Horcoff, Heatley, Lecavalier and so on, should only be allowed to have a say in the matter when they have played up to their worth of the contract. They want the owners to honour the contracts, I cant remember when they last time Horcoff played 7 million dollars worth of hockey or Lecavalier for his 10.

oh it's called a return key, uh huh

geez thanks for solving that for me

as to WTF you're saying I have no clue, but i digress

that fact you support Katz suggest's you're one of those just Build it folk, don't worry about details

Maybe use that to frame your thoughts, bud!

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#26 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 08:55PM
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Morgie99 wrote:

oh it's called a return key, uh huh

geez thanks for solving that for me

as to WTF you're saying I have no clue, but i digress

that fact you support Katz suggest's you're one of those just Build it folk, don't worry about details

Maybe use that to frame your thoughts, bud!

Pardon me, that was meant for playoffbound 2013

Sorry Roid Freud

And DSF

Jesus is right, go watch em in Seattle with your buddy

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#27 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:01PM
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50/50 revenue share sounds great but relaize with teams being allowed to discount HRR by up to 35% due to sharing the arena with another team NBA or managing the building, Calgary

it is 50/50 of a discounted HRR

so when we hear players get 57 of HRR it is57% of a discounted HRR

considering where theonwers starting point was however, this does appear to be a big move

too bad we won't see that other than TV past 2014

Sad but true, the problem with a team being owned by one person versus a group

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#28 DonDon
October 16 2012, 09:02PM
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"NHLPA and its members are a bunch of goofs and manginas anyway, they'll just waste time and think they're special for one reason or another. Players like Horcoff, Heatley, Lecavalier and so on, should only be allowed to have a say in the matter when they have played up to their worth of the contract. They want the owners to honour the contracts, I cant remember when they last time Horcoff played 7 million dollars worth of hockey or Lecavalier for his 10."

Who authorized those contracts? The owners, the bunch of goofs and your manginas. Who negotiated those contracts? The players' agents and NHL GMs. Who gave Horcoff a $7 million annual contract? Kevin Lowe. Who guaranteed NHL players' contracts? The owners. Why are so many NHL teams at the top of the escalating hard cap? Because the respective owners agreed push the cap. Who offered RFA Shea Weber an unbelievably costly contract? The Philadelphia Flyers.

So, who are the dummies here?

And some of the players are special. We happen to have a few on the Oilers.

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#29 DSF
October 16 2012, 09:05PM
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Morgie99 wrote:

Pardon me, that was meant for playoffbound 2013

Sorry Roid Freud

And DSF

Jesus is right, go watch em in Seattle with your buddy

Will be happy to.

A ride on the Victoria Clipper, a night in a downtown hotel and 2 seats to watch the Totems should run me about $250.00.

I'm in!

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#30 boxman
October 16 2012, 09:10PM
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Robin, of course it would be better if council and Mr. Katz worked for the betterment of Edmonton. It also would be better if the NHL owners and the players cared just a tiny bit about the effect their greed is having on the fans and all the people who make their livings from businesses connected to NHL hockey. None of the above will happen intentionally although all sides will spin the truth as if we the people matter. We don't. Greed and self interest is all that matters. So Shawn Horcoff go wear your union sweater out of spite. Tell the world how badly you have been treated. NHL owners go on pleading for more and more. It fills our hearts that if we work harder we can somehow make you richer while you tell us you are taking our money to make the game we love better. I am so very tired of hearing people whining about a lack of food. I am tired of selfish old people crying because they can't afford housing. I am sickened by street people freezing to death because of their mental problems. Buck up all of you. Stop being so entitled. For gods sake get out there and collect bottles if that is what it takes to satisfy the money needs of our selfless players and our virtuous owners.

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#31 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:12PM
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Sanaa Montana wrote:

Being politician is not hard, it is one of the easiest jobs in the world. Weight the intrest of your entire populace? How many people ride their bikes for how many months in the city? How many take a drive down Whytemud to look at shiny balls?

NHLPA and its members are a bunch of goofs and manginas anyway, they'll just waste time and think they're special for one reason or another. Players like Horcoff, Heatley, Lecavalier and so on, should only be allowed to have a say in the matter when they have played up to their worth of the contract. They want the owners to honour the contracts, I cant remember when they last time Horcoff played 7 million dollars worth of hockey or Lecavalier for his 10.

ok you mean the enter key,

Well good point!

I did use it and it posted all sentences together and this website does not let me delete my entry and try again

I hope that satisfies you

no, i meant to put all my sentences together, rendering the post virtually unreadable Jesus!

thanks for your insight, NOT

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#32 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:13PM
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my computer is not attaching the right posts Roid Freud, I give up

meant for playoff bound 2013

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#33 5 Cups
October 16 2012, 09:18PM
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@Morgie99

.....and as a sports fan I'm out growing the NHL at this rate.

Bull Crap! Your a sheep like the rest of us and when the Arena is built and the Oil are playing you will be there. There isn't much I can guarantee in life, but i guarantee that.

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#34 Magic-Al
October 16 2012, 09:46PM
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Ok, so Katz is poised to make a bajillion more dollars from all of the development he plans on doing around the arena, why is he splitting hairs over a paltry 6 million per year?

I know the old saying mind your pennies, your dollars are big enough to take care of themselves, but really? Seriously? Seems to me he's getting a pretty good deal already along with positioning himself to make a ton more - so why turn the screws over what is effectively, "chump change".

Besides, with ever increasing prices for tickets, hotdogs, beers, jerseys and everything else, in a few years that 6 mil will be coming in anyway...

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#35 bmac
October 16 2012, 09:47PM
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You said "dick measuring"

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#36 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:48PM
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5 Cups wrote:

.....and as a sports fan I'm out growing the NHL at this rate.

Bull Crap! Your a sheep like the rest of us and when the Arena is built and the Oil are playing you will be there. There isn't much I can guarantee in life, but i guarantee that.

True! But only go when given a ticket for free, but I do drink many beers!

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#37 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:52PM
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boxman wrote:

Robin, of course it would be better if council and Mr. Katz worked for the betterment of Edmonton. It also would be better if the NHL owners and the players cared just a tiny bit about the effect their greed is having on the fans and all the people who make their livings from businesses connected to NHL hockey. None of the above will happen intentionally although all sides will spin the truth as if we the people matter. We don't. Greed and self interest is all that matters. So Shawn Horcoff go wear your union sweater out of spite. Tell the world how badly you have been treated. NHL owners go on pleading for more and more. It fills our hearts that if we work harder we can somehow make you richer while you tell us you are taking our money to make the game we love better. I am so very tired of hearing people whining about a lack of food. I am tired of selfish old people crying because they can't afford housing. I am sickened by street people freezing to death because of their mental problems. Buck up all of you. Stop being so entitled. For gods sake get out there and collect bottles if that is what it takes to satisfy the money needs of our selfless players and our virtuous owners.

THANK YOU!

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN AND PRIORITIES STRAIGHT

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#38 Morgie99
October 16 2012, 09:57PM
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DSF wrote:

Will be happy to.

A ride on the Victoria Clipper, a night in a downtown hotel and 2 seats to watch the Totems should run me about $250.00.

I'm in!

PERFECT! ENJOY!

And be a sure to rub it in our faces, i know you will! LMAO

I'm just glad my taxes won't be going up to support this BS and actually have a life, but for some Pro sports is everything

Grow the F up

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#39 Harlie
October 16 2012, 10:47PM
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DSF wrote:

Edmonton is already a shell of its former self.

That's why all the head offices have moved to Calgary, Vancouver or Mississauga.

this shell of a city is leading Vancouver in many economic areas. http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/03/27/vancouver-growth-to-slow-in-2012-grow-in-2013-conference-board/

And ask yourself this question, could BC sustain 2 NHL hockey teams?

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Publications/PeriodicalsReleases/EconomicStatisticsReport.aspx

Not a chance, that's why you are looking at Seattle.

http://www.tableaudebordmontreal.com/comparons/activiteeconomique/pibpercapita.en.html?mode=print

I trust they have free wifi on the Victoria Clipper? The scenic almost 3 hour journey, both ways, should give you ample time to bone up on some facts.

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#40 Oasis
October 16 2012, 10:57PM
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This is just Katz playing hardball to get the best deal he can get. Think about it.........if the city just caves and coughs up the extra 6 million dollars a year that he wants, that's one heck of a letter and the easiest 6 million dollars you can make. Not just six million, but six million a year for who knows how long?

Is it smart? You bet. Is it ethical? That's another story. They had a deal, then Katz wanted more, but he is not willing to tell the city why he needs more. Show us Mr. Katz. Or you just want us to trust you on this one? This is a big deal and Edmonton will do the right thing but what we need to see all the facts to make sure we are getting a fair deal. Katz didn't get where he is by smaking blind business decisions without details and trusting people, why should we?

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#41 Butters
October 16 2012, 11:38PM
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If Katz set out to create an appetite in Edmonton to build the arena ourselves, Mission Accomplished!

We can offer Katz or or or a $1 lease deal, and all game night concessions and parking and we are good to go.

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#42 TonyT
October 17 2012, 12:40AM
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TigerUnderGlass wrote:

What is it you imagine Calgary has accomplished in the last 5 years? Calgary is a constant disaster.

I've been raised in Edmonton for the last 28 years so believe me I am in no way a Calgary supporter. However, where as a mere few years ago a diehard Edmontonian could argue that at best Calgary and Edmonton were similar. I'll now admit that Calgary is a nicer city, and like I said that pisses me off. But at least Sherwood Park now has a larger Winners...

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#43 The Oilers Shot Clock
October 17 2012, 05:17AM
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Wow..does any fan in sports feel more like a hostage than an Oiler fan?...Michael Moore could do a documentary on our plight and he wouldnt even have to exaggerate this time. The lock out, the Arena fiasco, the loyal support of a last place team.... If the Oilers had a bandwagon, I picture it borrowing 5 bucks off you for gas, and then asking you to push when it brakes down half way to where its going.

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#44 mayorpoop
October 17 2012, 06:19AM
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did not council vote and approve a deal already that was endorsed by Katz? i believe yes. when did the dynamics of this deal so drastically change? why did it change?

i understand the displeasure people have with politics, beaucracy, and politicians in general i have at many times felt the same. angry at the lack of leadership, decision making, and political will to kick start...anything.

in this case, opposite to what Katz says, i think Mandel has shown terrfic leadership and being an absolute booster (only second to Oilers Now) to this project. in fact Katz is hurting this deal by negating that fact.

to the dolt that thinks being a politcian is easy, i dare ask if he/she has thrown one's hat in the ring. EVERYTHING is easier from the cheap seats. politics is less than glamorous and burdens one's whole family. although i may not always agree with politicians on anything, i do admire their gumption to stand in there and be mocked consistently. it is really not worth it.

Katz needs to show more leadership and is best to be more optimistic and less adversarial.

but then again i'm not expert.

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#45 Morgie99
October 17 2012, 06:46AM
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v-man wrote:

M-99 You may be willing to tie yourself into a binding deal for 35 yrs with zero cost certainty but I doubt Katz will. He didn't get to where he is by being stupid and allowing a bully-boy city council to out-gun him and a provincial gov't to put him and Edmonton on the pay-no-mind list.

The whole attitude of the city would give me pause entering into such a partnership. Frankly, Edmonton doesn't deserve to be on any map. This is not a forward thinking city. The anti-business administrations past and present have kept Edmonton in the shadows behind Calgary's growth and what seems to be to me,, at least, a more progressive outlook. The ghosts of Pervis and Jan Reimer will haunt this city for ever.

Soldier on me hearties. This brain-fart performance by council may be E-town's epitaph.

How you blame council is beyond me

Build at all costs?

Council bullied Katz? now that is rich

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#46 -30-
October 17 2012, 08:05AM
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WTF am I missing? Katz had agreed in principle to the Bettman brokered meeting last fall. Now everything has changed? Bait and switch is the oldest sales tactic every.

As for Stauffer suggesting Bettman come over and "help" again, Stauffer is the biggest Katz Group schill ever. Let's just say that when Bryan Hall passes, Edmonton will still have a really biased and out of touch sports personality.

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#47 Maverick
October 17 2012, 08:53AM
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So Katz can agree to a deal in principal with Edmonton. A better deal in Seattle comes along and the original deal is now not good enough in Edmonton.

As a season ticket holder I agreed in principal to receiving 4% on my season ticket money during the lockout (which seemed fair). The Minnesota Wild are now offering 10% to their season ticket holders.

Wonder if Katz would re-do my deal?

Maybe I'll write a letter, because that would solve anything........

Get this deal done Katz, stop playing the poor man card.

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#48 Rick
October 17 2012, 08:55AM
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It's time that Mandel comes out and says the Katz deal is on the back burner for the time being.

He also needs to instruct administration to investigate what a City built deal on a new downtown arena would look like.

After that, the final agreement will be what it is but atleast all the bullshat games being played should stop and it can return to being a straight up business deal.

If a City owned arena means Katz takes his team elsewhere, then so be it. But he won't.

If that means we wait for the Florida Panthers to move north, then so be it.

Any emotional attachment between that hockey team and this city is a one way street and it's soemthing Katz is banking all of his 'asks' on. The players don't care about the city, this owner tells us through his actions that he doesn't care about the city beyond his ability to garner a favourable deal and the league certainly doesn't care about any of the fans or the cities as shown through the the 4th work stoppage in 20 years (keeping in mind they were all in the name of every team being profitable).

Professional sports stopped representing your dad's favourite team - when sports were sports and business was business - a long long time ago and it's probably about time that us fans recognized that.

As for Katz's letter;

Considering the similarities between some of the items written to Mayor Mandel and some of the items written by Bob Black in the opinion section of the Journal yesterday I would bet 10 bucks that the letter to the mayor wasn't actually written by Katz but instead it was probably on his behalf by Bob Black. Not that it necessarily changes anything.

The so called cost over runs of the arena, it's your own doing so quite griping about it. If you have 450 mil to spend then don't design a 500 mil arena. The design and therefore budget is fully in your control. The fact that you blew it should be your problem to bare.

The talk of committing 1 billion to the surrounding area. It has nothing to do with the arena deal being made with the city. You are going to make a lot of money off of that project and the arena will play just as an important part of it's success as the development will play for the city as a whole. The truth is that even if Katz pulled the pin on that part of the development, other developers will lineup to take advantage. This is not a Katz empire sacrafice for the good of the city.

The Oilers viability in Edmonton. Edmonton will never be NY or Toronto when it comes to a hockey team making money but that doesn't mean that you can consciously run the team into the dirt and expect the citizens of Edmonton to make up the difference. The Oilers are a last place cap spending team. Does a team need to spend to the cap in order to finish last? Is it good business to pay for Lowe, Mactavish, Tambellini, Quinn, Renney (before he got another job) all for the results they have gotten? To pay for Souray to play in the minors?

It's tiring to hear on one hand how great it will be to have an owner that is willing and able to spend money and then on the other cry about not making enough. To hear about a promise to build a practice facility at the U of A and then tell the city they have to build the practice rink as a community facility. To threaten to build a rink in Enoch on his own if the city isn'tgoing to play ball and then cry that a negotiated deal with the city will lose him money. To put up with one, two and then three threats to move the team and then write a scripted apology to the fans for taking them for granted. To force the biggest arena booster in the city - Mayor Mandel - to stand front and centre to sell the citizens on the merits of the deal and and then pointedly tell him that there isn't enough leadership to get this done.

The dudes become the bi-popar owner and the schtick has gotten old.

Sorry for the length of the rant...

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#49 Hammers
October 17 2012, 10:00AM
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Hope you take Rexall with you when you leave Mr.Katz as the backlash will be there.

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#50 Walter Sobchak
October 17 2012, 10:08AM
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Katz and the city representatives came back from NYC with a partial deal brokered depending on a few stipulations.

As I understand it, it’s not Katz that’s playing hard ball it’s the city, which again, from what I understand took a couple of key issues off the table as well as the 15 others issues mentioned by Katz. The two big ones are Northlands becoming involved again, and the maintenance fee that was agreed upon in NYC.

Having said that, I’m not sitting here day dreaming that Katz or city council doesn’t have a steak in making money off this deal, If Bettman can help turn this around and help broker this deal then so be it.

As for the Katz bashers, think of what it would cost the city to build the arena themselves? Or if Katz does decide to move the team.

Why isn’t anybody freaking out this bad over a 350 million dollar museum that’s completely funded by tax payers that maybe will see a couple thousand people per year and contributes one tenth the revenue this project will?

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