CATTLE CROSSING
Lowetide
September 23 2012 07:50AM
Back when the NHL played in arenas across North America, we could talk about games and statistics and trades and things. Nowadays, the subject involves lockouts and buildings, and "hockey" talk has given way to business and empre building. This week, a couple of missteps at least gave us something else to discuss.
This is one of my favorite books. In it, Jimmy Devellano painstakingly details the errors he made while representing the Detroit Red Wings as General Manager. He also reveals how Mike Illitch--the owner--at some point decided to move Jimmy D as far from the levers of power as possible. He FURTHER explains how Illitch did it, without ever giving the reader the impression that he--Devellano--saw it happening to him, then or now. Devellano and Illitch formed a relationship and stuck by it, and succeeded the moment Illitch started bringing people in to handle things like procurement and coaching decisions.
Devellano is a delight for fans, because--at 69--he's reached a point in his life where 'filter' is a part of his car. Jimmy D says what he thinks, and this week he lightened the Illitch pocketbook with two grand quotes. Lets take them one at a time.
- Jimmy D:“The owners can basically be viewed as the ranch, and the players, and me included, are the cattle. The owners own the ranch and allow the players to eat there. That’s the way it’s always been, and that(’s) the way it will be forever. And the owners simply aren’t going to let a union push them around. It’s not going to happen.”
The great thing about Devellano here is that you know he isn't being a sinister dick, he's just stating the facts as he sees them. It's a wonderful look into the 30-man gentlemen's club that is NHL ownership and their entourages. It is also a major tell about where this season is headed--down the toilet. The NHL owners know that the NHL players have no desire to lose a season and are acting in kind. In a negotiation, indifference to the outcome is the gold standard for positioning. NHL owners have reached that point and may have talked themselves into another lost season with little input from the players. Hey, who's to know what 30 quirky rich guys can come up with in 7 years?
- Jimmy D: “There is a hard cap in place as we all know. You can’t go over that .... period. If Weber gets this much, then another player gets less. Now does that mean it’s right for another team to do that? My answer is this: They (the Flyers) operated within the CBA and it’s totally legit to do. Having said that, I will tell you there is an unwritten rule that you don’t do that, but they did, and just like everything else in life, some people are great to deal with, some aren’t.
This is Devellano discussing the Weber deal and he's probably a little sour grapes on the entire summer (his ranch didn't get Suter or Weber, meaning a bad winter for all the cattle). The problem is that he's made public what everyone knew but couldn't prove--NHL teams don't use offer sheets because of a gentlemen's agreement. Now, I'm not smart enough to get that quote and build a thread from it to collusion, but you know who is? Donald Fehr.
Anyway, Jimmy Devellano is more entertaining that the owners and God love him for running his mouth this week.
MEANWHILE BACK AT THE RANCH
The Edmonton Oilers official twitter had this up last night:
I know it's just a retweet, and I've generally stayed out of this debate, but "loss of nhl club" on their timeline is a bad idea from here. Old timers like myself know all about being threatened, and there's some sensitivity at this point in time. I don't believe for a second the Oilers are leaving town and don't think Daryl Katz is manning the retweet button on a Saturday night,
Still, I think the Oilers would be wise to avoid doing this for the near future. Just my two cents.
WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
The NHL is forcing us to find our own entertainment. Quick--can you think of anything?
DSF, you amaze me. Commuting up and down the west coast on your nuclear powered hover craft, cheering for your Canucks and hobnobbing with your high falutin' connections all over North America, and yet you still make time to keep us poor disadvantaged ON plebes in the know about how awful our poor benighted city is. Thank so much for taking the time out of your busy day to put us in our place. You truly deserve a public service award. Bless you, sir! May we have another?
Oh, DSF. You're the human rain delay. First of all, I think it is established the city will build a new arena. Second, although I agree Katz may sell the team (it's an option) that doesn't seem to be his end game.
Seattle might end up being an NHL city, but I don't see any evidence that Edmonton will be the victim. The only thing these two items have in common is they are taking place on parallel lines.
@DSF
A couple of logistic questions:
If it is 74 miles from Victoria to Seattle, as the crow flies presumably, how do you get there in less than 1 hour? Can't drive, ocean is in the way. Ferry takes 2.5 hours. That leaves flying. A quick look shows prices for flights ranging from $350 to $480. Doesn't seem like a practical commute for a hockey game.
And speaking of impractical, the last time I travelled in the pacific north-west Seattle to Bend, Oregon was about a 7 hour drive. Maybe your business associate has a really fast car that can go 350 miles in 1 hour? Regardless, it is awesome that your bud will buy season tix. Now Seattle only has to find 17,999 more people willing to shell out to watch something as familiar to them as it was to Atlanta residents. Good luck.
As for a market like Seattle supporting an expansion team, with the liklihood that they won't win a lot in the first 5 years, an optimistic comparable might be Vancouver. Similar size and climate but Vancouver has a hockey tradition that Seattle lacks. How did the Canucks draw when they had a weak team? Prior to the sister's arrival, not great, and going back to the mid '80s really bad as in less than 11,000 per game. So, I am not convinced that Seattle will be a success, even though the market is 3.5 million strong. If market size was the most important criteria, why not move the oil to Mexico City with a population equal to Canada?
...i'm gonna start to juggle again
I might be in the minority, but the Ranch/Cattle comment doesn't bug me in the least. He's right. Those 30 rich guys own the show, not the performers.
Now the Twitter thing, that does bug me. It's like the Oilers refuse to acknowledge that they need the public to support them. Has nobody told these guys that if they want public funding they need THE PUBLIC behind them? To think of all the good will they p*ssed away recently is maddening. They even had the mayor of the city rooting for them at one point and its devolved into threats.
They ought to fire the dummy who made the tweet and the dummy that let it happen. The Oiler twitter feed has always been uninteresting, but things just got stupid.
If the arena has been agreed upon by the end of the lease, another season or two in Rexall wouldn't hurt. I know this is viewed as insane, but Rexall could sustain the club for a few more years without anyone dying of anything.
As for Seattle, fill your hat. But why Edmonton is part of the conversation is beyond me. Either people are reading one story and marrying it to another, or evil forces are at play in order to influence people.
I can't imagine the latter to be true.
Are the Oilers profitable today? Yes.
But that has NEVER been the driving force behind getting a new arena built, has it? It's tomorrow's profit margins. And can anyone honestly say with a straight face that if the Oilers are stuck in one of the smallest, oldest buildings in the NHL as of today, already paying the 4th highest in average ticket prices, throwing games left and right onto PPV to eke out a few extra bucks, and paying out salaries that do nothing but continue to rise, that this team has much of a chance to maintain that?
There isn't a doubt in my mind, and I've been watching this team since their WHA days, that if that lease expires and there's no building on the way to replace it, that the Oilers will be sold and moved...and you're living in denial if you think for a second that the NHL would do a single thing to get in the way.
When I was younger, that possibility would've bothered me greatly. Now, I couldn't care less where they play. They'll still be the Oilers to me no matter what city they're in, and I'll have just as easy a time cheering a team with Hall/Eberle/RNH/Yakupov/Hemsky on it if they're playing in Seattle than Edmonton.
If Edmonton lets this opportunity get past them, good luck getting anybody else to come here and deal with the gong show that is this city. And guaranteed ANY move of another team to here would require that a new building be part of the deal.
It amazes me how some Oiler fans are so smug and complacent about where they rate in the grand scheme of things. "The Oilers would never leave!"? Yeah, keep on believing that.
...ok so i go to puck daddy after reading the claim and reply asking for proof and there it is ... in future at least credit the source of claims you make instead of letting [me] us think you're something you're not...
flake
Switched over to Shaw this week just so I can watch more Oil Kings games. Shaw telecasts some of the games. I don't know how many yet but it was one more than Telus had on this week.JD remarks are true. An we the fans are the fodder. We feed the "cattle" that live on the ranch, Without the fodder there are no cattle, and there is no ranch. We line up faithfully at the local hockey shrines and faithfully pay our hard earned dollars watching a boys game.We are so clannish in our devotion to our teams that we live and die with every win and loss. The players are set apart and receive our adoration and genuflection. I am like most, guilty of all these sins and would willingly throw even more dollars into the coffers if asked to buy the owners and players just to receive my fix of hockey spirituality.I am sick. At 47 I have worshiped at Hockey shrine for well onto 40 years. I am addicted to hockey that in no way can measured or quantified. Its part of my fabric of being. The"Ranchers" prey upon men and women like me to continuously fill their coffers. And we willingly do so. We can't help ourselves. JD shouldn't be fined. He should be applauded for telling the truth. In Detroit they call it "Hockeytown". In Edmonton we call it "Oil Country". Whatever you call it it equals money. Until the "fodder" stops coming to the "Ranch" to feed the "cattle" we'll all just have to make do with WHL and AJHL and AHl to feed our hockey lovin souls.
I think one of the most galling things is how Katz keeps claiming he WON'T negotiate through the media. He's always negotiated through radio/media mouthpieces (even when he was negotiating to buy the team in the first place.) It's like Charles Manson saying he doesn't have to kill people, he just thinks it. Sure he doesn't threaten to move the team, he doesn't have to, a half dozen people are lined up to imply it for him.
I'm starting to see why he doesn't speak very often. He might have a good heart and good intentions, but he has a way of turning believers into non-believers.
And I'm someone that really wants a new arena!
Fort McMurray?
;-)
The Oilers are a very valuable property. He can keep it and make money or sell the team and make money. The next crossroads from what I can tell will come when it is time to renew the lease at Rexall.
Should he choose not to do it--and that's what he's said all along--that will force the issue. That's the real deadline, the Rexall lease.
What bothers me is people saying "Edmonton is a great hockey market".
While they do sell out every game, the real revenue comes from broadcast rights and corporate support. In that vein, Edmonton is a small market team.
There's far less corporate potential here than in places like Toronto, Vancouver or even (shudder) Calgary. And I've seen TV media buys for other market teams. Edmonton is far cheaper by comparison.
While fans fill the building, corporate suites and TV revenues fill the coffers. Don't dismiss cities like Seattle. They have both in spades.
And he would make it back in spades.
The TV revenue alone in that market would dwarf anything Edmonton could offer never mind the corporate sponsorships, bigger arena and merchandise sales in a huge market.
The NHL is a second tier sports league. The Edmonton Oilers according to Forbes is in the top 5 teams wrt net operating income of 17.3 million. Only Toronto, New York Rangers, Montreal, Vancouver generate more EBITA. Also the Edmonton Oilers are in the top 15 wrt current estimated value. So in summary the Edmonton Oilers are doing excellent business in a second or third tier sports league. Katz could move the team and no replacement team could come in but more probably there would be another team come in. http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/
If it came down to it I'm becoming more of the mind Katz would sell the team rather than relocate. $17 Million before tax considerations is not nearly enough to get excited about for a guy like Katz if owning the team causes as much grief as it seems to be doing.
@common sense
"there would be another team come in"
And who would own it and where would they play?
Forbes numbers are almost fantasy.
They have no access to NHL books.
Do you actually believe the Oilers are in the same league as Toronto, Montreal, NYR, Boston, Vancouver, Calgary, Philly and Chicago?
The Forbes numbers, for example, show the Flames with revenue of 105 million and operating income of only $1.1 million.
That compares to the Oilers revenue of 96 million but operating income of 17.3 million.
How do you account for the difference?
Also, bear in mind, the Oilers are the only team in the the league that does not receive non-hockey revenue from the arena.
Changes the picture drastically.
If there is no perceived possibility to the Oilers ever leaving, why would the city have insisted upon a 35 year location agreement as part of the arena deal?
His option, as I understand it, would be to offer the team for sale to local buyers. If there is none available, then he would be free to relocate. But I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.
Either way, I do believe that talk of Katz moving the team is designed to create a certain amount of panic in the city. I don't think panic is warranted.
jmo.
Panic is warranted!?
AAAAA!
Phoenix and Seattle aren't at all comparable as sports markets...especially for hockey.
Phoenix is a dreadful bandwagon town. The Cardinals of the NFL are 26th in the league in attendance at only 94% capacity.
Seattle is 17th but at 101% of capacity.
The Mariners have been dreadful for years but they still fill 45 percent capacity.
The Seattle Sounders of the MLS average over 42,000/game. The next closest MLS team is Montreal at 23,000/game.
The Phoenix Suns are 21st in the NBA at only 84 percent capacity.
You say Edmonton is not a small market team with 1.75 million in northern Alberta but metro Seattle has 3.5 million and the team's market area would draw fans from Vancouver to Portland...potentially a much larger market area.
Surprised you left out the part of Delvanno's comment about the players showing a bit of respect for how they are treated. I thought it was the best part.
As per TSN,
Devellano also said that players should take 43 per cent of the revenue, instead of the current 57 per cent, and let the owners manage the rest of their expenses.
"Yes, they are billionaires," Devellano said. "Good on them, they deserve it, but they also make their employees millionaires. Not a bad tradeoff for a guy like (Milan) Lucic getting what, $6 million a year? I mean good on him too, but he should be grateful. Understand, though, that these players want for nothing ... it's first class this, first class that, meal allowances, travel money on the road, the whole shebang."
As a fan, I understand players going to Russia for a scare to the Owners but like it or not, that plane crash last year and the death of Cherapanov on the bench has scared anyone other than Russians from going to the KHL for good. It's one thing to make good money and fly and travel with the best in North America. It's another to deal with the tax free money and Russian Airways.
Delvanno nailed it on the head. I just plead indifference. As a young parent I don't have the money to go to games anymore anyways. I watch all my stuff on TV and buy a couple hundred dollars of licenced merch every year cause I like how it looks. THey want to fight over who gets the money out of the sale, their business their right. I won't lie and say I won't watch it when it's not back on. I get the business. I also get on with my life.
For everyone on hear saying they are going to forget the league when this lockout ends. I find it funny. You will hate it when its back but spend every day on a blog site about the product until it returns.
The market is huge.
Soccer is a niche sports and draws almost 45K/game in Seattle.
The most the Oilers can fit in Rexall is 16K.
No problem surpassing that in Seattle when drawing from Vancouver, Seattle, Tacoma, Redmond, Olympia, Portland, etc.
Hell, I live on Vancouver Island and can be in the arena district in Seattle in less than an hour from Victoria. It's only 74 miles. That's closer than Red Deer is to Edmonton.
For a weekend trip, I can take the Victoria Clipper ferry, downtown to downtown, and be in Seattle in two and a half hours.
I can take the ferry, hotel for one night in Seattle included for $136.00.
I'm in.
I have a Canadian business associate living in Bend, Oregon who is a huge hockey fan. His son goes to the University of Washington.
He's already indicated he'll buy season's tickets
Jason Gregor's first article in the Edmonton Journal is up. I'd like to extend congratulations.
Now two ON writers have made their way to the Journal's pages. I bet Wanye never saw that coming when this site was started.
Actually, Toronto, Winnipeg and Montreal all charge more for tickets than the Oilers while Vancouver, Calgary, Philly and the Rangers are all within $5/ticket but have much larger seating capacity.
If Seattle charged league average for tickets ($57.10) in a 19,000 seat arena, they would generate $44,480,000 in ticket revenue for a 41 game season.
The Oilers charge an average of $70.00 in an arena that seats 16,500 or $47,355,000 for a 41 game season.
Given that luxury box revenue, corporate sponsorships, television revenue and lower tax rates would be beneficial in Seattle, this isn't even close.
If Edmonton builds a new arena, they win.
If they don't, they lose.
Um, you are assuming that Seattle will sell out every game. I don't think you can simply assume that. we have evidence that Edmonton will sell out for a loosing team. The non traditional hockey markets don't seem to be such a sure thing
Also, thanks to LT for the Raquel Welch blast. Hubba,hubba. My old man had a puzzle of Ursula Andress when I was a kid. Nude from the front on one side of the puzzle,from the back on the other side. Anyone remember those 'Reversible Ursula' puzzles?
reginald dunlop...well played sir...a total geography lesson...i started smelling something fishy when the 74 miles to the rink district in seattle was mentioned in such classic condescending d s f fashion...
DSF...this time...you ARE the weakest link !!!
best busted DSF ever!!! right in front of LT calling DSF a human rain delay...good times!
AND no HUG required!
You know we are slowly going Lockout crazy when we actually entertain ourselves by replying to that knob DSF....for gods sakes call his mom and have her yank his internet access...
the real question is: did they make it from victoria to seattle in under an hour?
The Rebels are playing the Oil Kings today at 2pm. Let's talk about that.
Arch: I imagine the person who retweeted has been moved to another another job within the organization.
I do agree that the Katz strategy is something of a mystery at this point, but the rt was a hiccup imo.
@Lowetide
Well I hope they at least fire the training staff ;)
Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but a young Mandelbaum just got out of college. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS3NsSUIDfo
The team won't move but there some possibilities. Katz sells team. Katz keeps team at Rexall and Oilers become a cap floor team.
Meh. The Oilers are a team that makes money, and as long as the dollar doesn't dive to 85 cents things should roll along no matter the owner.
Daryl Katz badly needs some PR help. Beyond that, there's nothing to worry about for Oiler fans.
Ya, Katz is subtle in his negotiating tactics. A lot like this guy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW9MlYu31g&feature=related
MattL: You've perfectly framed the issue. A week ago (or so), many Edmontontians were not happy with the deal but were willing to proceed.
Now? About the only thing the Katz group has done is make mayor Mandel look like the voice of reason, and I know that wasn't their intent.
I suspect he's getting terrible advice.
Why wouldn't they move? Companies don't have conscience or loyalty on their balance sheets. Especially not NHL franchise owners. Case in point - Lockout 2004, lockout 2012. What the fans want is of no consequence. Were the Jets and Nordiques fans any less rabid than Edmonton ones? Say what you will about Katz. But there is no question he is an astute businessman. And you don't get where he is without a certain amount of ruthlessness. How many excellent offers do you expect him to turn down? Surely he's got wind of a few already.
Dawn: Why would Katz leave Edmonton--an exceptional NHL market--for a lesser one? Where is the available city that is superior to Edmonton? And don't say Seattle because it isn't a better hockey market.
LT: Why wouldn't he sell if he could sell at a healthy profit?
sure. But he'd sell to Edmonton interests, not Seattle interests. He would have to exhaust all avenues in Edmonton, at least that's been the NHL policy in the past.
Sorry. Answered a question with a question. I wasn't talking about him personally moving the team. Just wondering what compelling reason he has to keep it. The only reasons I can imagine would be emotional. And call me cynical, but I doubt he makes too many business decisions based on emotion.
I recently criticized Jay Feaster for some of the character issues that have arisen in the Flames organization over the past few years. Notably, that tweet mocking the Hemsky signing, as well as a few other public statements that bordered on patronizing and confrontational.
I'm afraid that here is the same issue. Twitter is a phenomenal social media and public relations tool. The media and fans are addicted to it without an organization having to do one second of selling. It comes as a ready-built marketing tool.
So why is it that so often an organization like a sports team allows idiots to man the helm? Wesley Crusher was never allowed to steer the ship, and with good reason.
Perhaps the Oilers staff put in charge of these tools are younger generation workers entering the labour landscape. They might lack some of the discretion that experience and time will offer.
Or maybe the manager meant to oversee social media interactions had a massive brain cramp?
Either way, the Katz Group is not being well-served by their advisers and marketing consultants in this regard.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by stepping closer to the territory previously held by Peter Pocklington.
I'm an unabashed supporter of building an arena. Make it big, make it beautiful, make it the best arena in the NHL and so fantastic that Calgary will have to wrack it's brains to try and compete.
That being said, statements like this really tick me off and push me towards the stance that the city needs to take the Katz group to task over this.
Katz isn't moving the Oilers. There is no way on this Earth that the NHL would allow a team to leave Edmonton, if only because there are five or ten other American franchise owners who would want to move their clubs first.
Abandoning a Canadian market with a captive fan base would be beyond stupid, which, on second thought, I suppose means that it is something the NHL might consider.
LT, booted upstairs perhaps? Say to Director of Hockey Operations?
;)
You're missing the point entirely.
If an arena doesn't get built, Katz won't move the team...he'll sell it.
I would think he'll first offer it to any local buyer foolish enough to think he can make a go of it in Rexall Place for the foreseeable future.
If no local buyer is forthcoming...he'll sell the team.
At that point, Don Levin would but the team and move it to Seattle or Quebecor will buy it and move it to Quebec.
And.
Seattle WITH a new arena IS a better hockey market than Edmonton WITHOUT a new arena.
1) 3000 additional seats
2) Significantly more luxury boxes
3) Much larger corporate presence
4) Much larger television market from Vancouver to Portland
5) Zero investment in new arena.
6) Potential benefit of non-hockey revenue depending on lease terms
Oh, LT, you're such a Pollyana.
If, you're correct that the city will build a new arena (despite not having a deal in place and still missing $100 million) all will be well.
Bettman has been very clear that Edmonton must build a new arena or its game over.
Katz has been very clear he will not play in Rexall Place beyond the end of the lease.
Katz "end game" is obviously to get a new arena built in Edmonton but there are now TWO viable options for re-location.
There is tremendous motivation for the developers to get an NHL team in Seattle since city funding for the arena increases by $80 million if the the developer lands BOTH an NBA and NHL team.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/potential-nhl-seattle-owner-talks-relocation-vs-expansion-181402759--nhl.html
$80 million is a lot of coin.
Money talks....you know the rest.
@ DSF/Lowetide:
You know who else doesn't see Edmonton as the victim of a Seattle team? Don Levin. Levin's publicly stated that he does not expect to land a team via relocation.
He has to say that Jon to keep in the NHL's goods books.
Bettman doesn't like poachers.
The article I linked to above has some other speculation.