TIGHTEN UP

Lowetide
December 24 2013 10:09AM

Sam Gagner has had a miserable six months. In late September, the young Oilers center suffered a significant injury and it has taken him forever to come back to something resembling normal. In fact, I'd wager most fans would agree with me in saying last night was the first time we got to see Gagner in his typical role: creative, offensive center with an ability to make plays and contribute to offense. It's been a long road.

IN THE BEGINNING

During the summer, new GM Craig MacTavish identified Gagner as a well-respected man about the Oiler room. This was an issue because there were some bad vibes in the locker room:

  • MacTavish: “It’s incumbent on everybody in that locker-room to really work to provide the type of working environment we want. The type of productive, hard-working, non-complaining culture we want. And I’m going to be diligent in my decision-making in terms of weeding out the complainers.”

The problem with Gagner has never been attitude or offense, but rather defense. After returning too early from the injury, Gagner was the culprit on a legion of goals-against and seemed to be ignoring responsibility and turning away from the slot while allowing free looks for opposition snipers. Galling for fans, and this had to be a major problem for the organization.

I mean, riddle me this: what action DO you take with a player known for intelligent play who is making simple, basic errors? The Oilers were extremely patient—too patient—before relegating him to limited duty on the fourth line. The play didn't improve, but the negative impact was reduced because he was now far from the important part of the game. 

Gagner's Corsi For % this season (5x5) is 47%, a smart improvement over last season's 42.9% (source: Extra Skater) which means he's heading in a better direction when on the ice, but these damn massive breakdowns are causing a frigging in the riggin'.

TIGHTEN UP 

Sam Gagner has never been known as a strong defensive center, and the problems he is encountering this season are his natural weakness. Last night, for the first time this season, Gagner wasn't wearing anything that might reduce his comfort and visibility.

It looked better. In my opinion. And I'm not alone.

  • Bruce McCurdy, Cult of Hockey: #89 Sam Gagner, 7. Strong 200-foot game that included some effective & committed own-zone play. Scored a beauty on a tic-tac-toe play. 11/18=61% on faceoffs.

That's a wonderful bit of prose, well-earned and a long time coming.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

I've always believed the worst time to give up on a player is when he's underperforming because of injury or another identifiable reason (I had to throw that in there because once upon a time Ron Low/Miro Satan). Gagner's performance last night suggests the new free range Gagner is back to last season's levels.

I remain convinced the Oilers should keep Gagner, although perhaps a move to wing is a better option than keeping him at center. Agree?

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Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
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#1 Big Dummy
December 24 2013, 10:29AM
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He's had a different head coach every year he's been in the league and he still (somehow) manages to progress. His jaw has clearly been an issue all year, he'll be a heluva player yet, I think it should happen when he's still on my team.

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#2 MessyEH!
December 24 2013, 11:42AM
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Gagner is a turd, you just keep polishing him Lowetide.

I'd rather see him shipped out. His contract is what prevents him from being a second, or third line winger. Too much cash for a one demensional player. If he was 4 million instead of 5 I could see it. I would sign Hemsky to 4 million for 2 more years and trade Gagner for some reasonably priced depth players.

We need to trim the fat to afford a #1 Dmen. We also need some more actual NHL players who make less then 2 million a year.

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#3 Serious Gord
December 24 2013, 12:10PM
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Should have traded his a$$ two years ago.

MacT should have traded him the day he (officially) became GM but instead he declared him to be a cornerstone player and signed him to a millstone contract.

Putting him on the wing is worse than useless - he's too small to dig for the puck. Third line centre on a top tier team at best.

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#4 Saytalk
December 24 2013, 06:23PM
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This team has been abysmal for four going on five years now and you're still serving the KoolAid LoweTide. If we keep small one-dimensional players and pay them $4.8M while the first overall picks keep getting $6M handed to them, how do you expect this team to ever climb out of the toilet?

47% Corsi for any second line player on a big contract is not an improvement, it is grounds for a buyout. Hold this team to a higher standard for at least one article.

Center or winger, Gagner simply isn't good enough to play for a contending team in the NHL. Trade him for whatever you can get and make room for someone else. Upgrading from this crap wouldn't be that hard.

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#5 a lg dubl dubl
December 24 2013, 12:47PM
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Gagners FO % is what it is because he had wingers that don't help dig for the puck when it isn't won clean, I think this year is the first year since 06, that the wingers are helping the centerman to. Even RNHs FO% is up this year...or should we trade his ass too, y'know, because...

If Gagner can have a career of 60 pt seasons Im ok with that. Its Hall, Eberle, and Yak that I want to have 80-100 points years every year

Gagner, IMO should have been named captain. I like Ference but for a new guy coming into a new dressing room, seemed off.

Should he be on the wing, maybe, but until the Oilers can get the 6'2 220lb center that EVERY team wants, Frodo does the job on my books.

Merry Christmas ON!!

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#6 ColourMeImpressed
December 24 2013, 10:12AM
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I am going to require more than a good performance against a struggling team on its second night of a back-to-back on the road, before I reverse my condemnation of Gagner.

He flat out cheated for points last year, not even trying defensively, to get his contract.

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#7 Ivan Drago
December 24 2013, 10:21AM
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Sure. Gagner can play on my team. On the wing. On the third line. At a reduced salary. Decent one-dimensional player. Not a fit for the needs of the team.

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#8 Eberle4MVP
December 24 2013, 10:50AM
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Id keep Hemmer over Gags. He isnt good enough to be on this team long term. He has talant and skill that another team would strongly benefit from, as an addition to a team with size, but we need to move some of the smurfs for some skilled size. He cant get anyone off the puck along the boards like Hemsky can, and a one-game sample of him actually back-checking is not a career made. He simply sucks defensively, and we need better characters to be able to defend since our blueline isnt exactly strong.

We are all guilty of wanting to run Hemsky out of town, but since hes shown that his shoulders are no longer made of glass, he is very much a great part of this team. Secondary scoring, fantastic hands, and a willingness to go into the rough areas, something maybe one or two other Oilers are willing to do.

Trade Gags, or dont re-sign him is my opinion. His role needs to be replaced with some more size.

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#9 David S
December 24 2013, 01:04PM
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I'll go on record right now as saying the Gagner you'll see at the end of the year will be a player you cheer for every night. A gritty buzz bomb that'll get you 50-60 points a season, be around 50% on the dot and figure out the D part of the rink enough to become one of our core players. And then you'll all go ballistic when he throws in a Gagner scrap™.

Hey. It's the internet. You can get away with almost anything here. Am I right or am I right?

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#10 Citizen David
December 24 2013, 10:17AM
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Gagner playing his best is an effective player that can play on my team. The problem is our list of players we want to keep is getting really long which means that help will have to come from free agency, OKC, and personal development.

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#11 Spydyr
December 24 2013, 12:56PM
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BLAKPOO wrote:

Say what you want about Gagner, just don't back up your argument with +/- stats.

It cheapens us all.

Ummmm ,Stats=career minus sixty something

To be exact career -63 this year -15

It does mean something. It means he hurts his team more than he helps his team.

Yeah he is a keeper alright.

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#12 Ducey
December 24 2013, 01:38PM
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Spydyr wrote:

If you cannot see Gagner is weak defensively nothing anyone says can change your opinion of him.

And if you can't figure out the problems with +/- then you won't change yours either.

Here are a few hints:

1) Gagner came into the league as an 18 yr old. Young players struggle with defense. This tends to improve over time.

2)Gagner has played on a team intentionally trying to tank for rebuild purposes.

3) Gagner has played with other young players. See point 1.

The question is whether he will improve defensively. I think he will. His dad became a very good all round player after also being considered too small to play in the NHL.

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#13 D
December 25 2013, 12:13AM
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David S wrote:

Sam Gagner was NEVER going to be a 80-100 point player. Taylor Hall MIGHT be one. Maybe.

Throwing up unrealistic performance goals to prove your point is just dumb.

Your rejoinder is an amateur mistake in logic David (specifically denying the antecedent and post hoc ergo propter hoc).

(Denying the antecedent) - If Sam Gagner has an 80-100 point season, then the statement "he maxed out his potential" would be incorrect. If as you say Sam Gagner was never going to be an 80-100 point player, then the statement that he maxed out his potential is entirely correct, hence no fallacy of the inverse.

(Post hoc ergo propter hoc) - Because Sam Gagner has maxed out his potential "B", move him as part payment for another piece of the puzzle "C". Nowhere was it stated that because Sam Gagner did not score 80-100 points "A", therefore move him for a piece of the puzzle "C". But since your response relies on "if A then C", you have relied on a post hoc fallacy in criticizing my comment.

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#14 John Chambers
December 24 2013, 11:58AM
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Gagner costs too much for a 2nd or 3rd line C.

I wouldn't trade him if the return was nothing, but in agreement with LT we need a different look for #2 C.

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#15 Cynic
December 24 2013, 06:12PM
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Citing plus-minus cheapens an argument? With a fanbase that thinks Peter Gabriel's Volhammer, Closed Fenwicks, and the Queen's Relative's Corgis are real stats? That's funny.

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#16 Ducey
December 24 2013, 10:28AM
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I'd leave him at center until they can upgrade with someone better. And no, Arcobello is not that player.

Your top 4 wingers going forward have to be Perron, Hall, Ebs, and Yak. They are all more dynamic players than Sam.

Ultimately, he is likely the guy that gets traded. Might as well let him build his value for the rest of the season.

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#17 David S
December 24 2013, 11:55AM
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Gagner's defensive liabilities wouldn't be near the problem we're seeing this year if we even had league average D. The fact we don't is simply magnifying his natural Achilles heel.

However D can be taught and from what I've seen, he's trying within the limits of a (very) difficult injury. As the season goes on and the new systems become instinctual and he fully heals, just watch him improve.

First night without the dog collar and he's a far better player. Yeah, small sample size but the difference was noticeable. Where did he score his goal last night? That's right, in the "high danger/greasy" part of town. And how many players do we have that'll go to those areas, you know, where most goals are scored?

All you guys are hot to trade a high value player (yes, he is), but if his game comes back and improves (which it will - he's 23 FFS) you better be sure you get fair value for the player he can be, not the player he's been for half an injury throttled season.

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#18 They're $hittie
December 24 2013, 01:47PM
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Spydyr wrote:

If you cannot see Gagner is weak defensively nothing anyone says can change your opinion of him.

Has he ever played on a good team?

Here are a list of other players on the oilers that suck defensivly

Hall, Eberle, Hemsky, Yakupov, Jones, Gazdic, Jonesuu, J Schultz, Potter, Grebeshkov, Larsen, N Schultz,

Get the idea, There are not many players on the oilers who are plus since being here.

Also, Two years ago Sam lead the oilers in plus minus. I think it was his best season defensively. Was he the best forward defensively that year? Maybe but if you think not than your argument doesnt stand up.

Plus minus = dumb stat

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#19 Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)
December 24 2013, 10:40AM
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Play him at 2C....shelter his minutes.....then when he's hitting his stride. ....trade him at the deadline like you should have done with Hemsky last year!....Not because they aren't good players, but because they are redundant on our team and when they are healthy and playing well they have some value in the trade market.

However, I think that Oilers brass are a little desperate because of the current state of affairs (29th place team) and will not have the good sense and courage to trade a good player while he's playing good. On the bright side, we have no hope for a playoff push, so there is no need to retain veterans to support a playoff run like we did for that dismal 10 game stretch at the end of last season

So no LT, I do not agree. I sometimes think that the stats guys want to win the CORSI Cup while I want to win the Stanley Cup.

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#20 David S
December 24 2013, 12:12PM
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Spydyr wrote:

With a career minus sixty something?

Not 5 million.

A goal prevented is worth as much as a goal scored. There are better options on the Oilers to score. Not so many options in preventing them.

So what you're saying is you know more than MacT or he's basically unmovable, in which case this argument is moot.

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#21 Spydyr
December 24 2013, 12:09PM
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David S wrote:

Just curious. What's the average value of a 2LC who can bring you 50 points or so?

With a career minus sixty something?

Not 5 million.

A goal prevented is worth as much as a goal scored. There are better options on the Oilers to score. Not so many options in preventing them.

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#22 Spydyr
December 24 2013, 12:13PM
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David S wrote:

So what you're saying is you know more than MacT or he's basically unmovable, in which case this argument is moot.

Everyone is movable.

Gagner should have been moved years ago.

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#23 BLAKPOO
December 24 2013, 12:26PM
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Spydyr wrote:

With a career minus sixty something?

Not 5 million.

A goal prevented is worth as much as a goal scored. There are better options on the Oilers to score. Not so many options in preventing them.

Say what you want about Gagner, just don't back up your argument with +/- stats.

It cheapens us all.

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#24 MessyEH
December 24 2013, 01:03PM
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Agree completely, Gagner is over paid for what he is. Has never scored more then 50pts. Is not great at FOs, Defensively suspect, and paid one million too much. Better off trading him for real 3rd and 4th liners. Maybe we can get Cogs.

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#25 season not played
December 24 2013, 11:22AM
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Should have traded his rights this past summer. His defficiencies as a player have been well documented.

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#26 Slyers
December 24 2013, 09:37PM
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Saytalk wrote:

This team has been abysmal for four going on five years now and you're still serving the KoolAid LoweTide. If we keep small one-dimensional players and pay them $4.8M while the first overall picks keep getting $6M handed to them, how do you expect this team to ever climb out of the toilet?

47% Corsi for any second line player on a big contract is not an improvement, it is grounds for a buyout. Hold this team to a higher standard for at least one article.

Center or winger, Gagner simply isn't good enough to play for a contending team in the NHL. Trade him for whatever you can get and make room for someone else. Upgrading from this crap wouldn't be that hard.

Agreed! LT. You say "a player known for intelligent play" this might be one of the most ridiculous comments ever! Gagner? the man is lost In his own zone and often makes plays in the offensive zone that lead to odd men advantages. When I think of intelligent players I think Pecca, Pronger, Gretzky, Patrice Bergeron, never, never, NEVER Gagner!!!!! Wow !

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#27 Former Noter Dame Hound
December 25 2013, 08:08AM
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Saytalk wrote:

This team has been abysmal for four going on five years now and you're still serving the KoolAid LoweTide. If we keep small one-dimensional players and pay them $4.8M while the first overall picks keep getting $6M handed to them, how do you expect this team to ever climb out of the toilet?

47% Corsi for any second line player on a big contract is not an improvement, it is grounds for a buyout. Hold this team to a higher standard for at least one article.

Center or winger, Gagner simply isn't good enough to play for a contending team in the NHL. Trade him for whatever you can get and make room for someone else. Upgrading from this crap wouldn't be that hard.

I could not agree more with Saytalk...Gagner has for sure lost his mojo just like Ben Eager did when he got clocked...Gagner is so sh## scared to hold the puck that he just dumps it blindly..and more often than not to one of his own players who is covered and gets decked...if I was a fellow OILER I would refuse to play when Gag_me is on the ice...trade...trade...give away....fire him for being so abysmal...

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#28 Al 77
December 24 2013, 11:12AM
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Sorry Lowetide one good game doesn't erase the 5 or 6 years worth of a sample size of bad face off %,and at best questionable decision making on the defensive end we have seen his entire career so far

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#29 The Soup Fascist
December 24 2013, 12:41PM
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David S wrote:

And I'm not talking about the average value of a 2LC regurgitated from the discard pile who might, MIGHT be as good as the one we already have.

And no, Arco at 20 or so games in isn't going to be the answer alot of you guys think he might be. At least not to a NHL GM making the call.

This. ^

Good on Arco for his performance so far this season. But small sample size does not begin to cover it. Over the long haul I suspect we need a 2C with a bit more jam.

BTW. At what point does Social Services get called in when you abandon your young son two Christmases in a row? Maybe the Oilers have made me cynical but I am beginning think the basic premise for the Home Alone series of movies is not all that plausible.

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#30 Spydyr
December 24 2013, 01:12PM
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BLAKPOO wrote:

But it doesn't include special teams contributions, or specify line mates and match ups.

+/- is a garbage stat.

If you cannot see Gagner is weak defensively nothing anyone says can change your opinion of him.

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#31 bwar
December 24 2013, 03:06PM
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I've been asking for Gagner to get moved to the wing all year. Will it happen? Absolutely not. Why? Because he was drafted as a center therefore must play center until the end of time.

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#32 Spydyr
December 24 2013, 12:06PM
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Trade him as part of a package for either a top four defensmen or a real 2C.

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#33 Rama Lama
December 24 2013, 11:17AM
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Eberle4MVP wrote:

Id keep Hemmer over Gags. He isnt good enough to be on this team long term. He has talant and skill that another team would strongly benefit from, as an addition to a team with size, but we need to move some of the smurfs for some skilled size. He cant get anyone off the puck along the boards like Hemsky can, and a one-game sample of him actually back-checking is not a career made. He simply sucks defensively, and we need better characters to be able to defend since our blueline isnt exactly strong.

We are all guilty of wanting to run Hemsky out of town, but since hes shown that his shoulders are no longer made of glass, he is very much a great part of this team. Secondary scoring, fantastic hands, and a willingness to go into the rough areas, something maybe one or two other Oilers are willing to do.

Trade Gags, or dont re-sign him is my opinion. His role needs to be replaced with some more size.

Hemmer is certainly a polarizing figure.........I love when he shows up, but because he plays an individual game, this is unreliable and hard to predict.

If Hemmer could add some upper body strength, he could really be more effective along the boards........right now there is too much pick pocket hockey in his game. We know he can take the punishment........I would like to see him give it for a change?

Maybe we could play him with Gazdic for added muscle and confidence?

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#34 David S
December 24 2013, 12:07PM
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John Chambers wrote:

Gagner costs too much for a 2nd or 3rd line C.

I wouldn't trade him if the return was nothing, but in agreement with LT we need a different look for #2 C.

Just curious. What's the average value of a 2LC who can bring you 50 points or so?

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#35 OilClog
December 24 2013, 12:37PM
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Gags on the wing wouldn't be equal or an improvement to what we already have on the wing.. I would prefer he's moved to a new area code.

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#36 BLAKPOO
December 24 2013, 01:07PM
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Spydyr wrote:

Ummmm ,Stats=career minus sixty something

To be exact career -63 this year -15

It does mean something. It means he hurts his team more than he helps his team.

Yeah he is a keeper alright.

But it doesn't include special teams contributions, or specify line mates and match ups.

+/- is a garbage stat.

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#37 David S
December 24 2013, 03:28PM
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Ed in PV wrote:

To me a "buzz bomb" is a player who is very quick as you notice him darting around the ice. Are you expecting Santa to deliver him a new set of legs?

The games I was at last year when he was healthy and on the way to 38/48, he was ripping all over the place. He's alot faster than it looks like on TV. Maybe not Taylor "Cannonball" Hall fast, but pretty damn speedy all the same.

My prediction stands. You guys are gonna be surprised how much he's got it together at the end of this season. It'll be just about the time the annual Weber fantasy trade talks really hit.

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#38 Manfly
December 24 2013, 08:10PM
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if the Oilers can get a good 2nd line center in a trade or UFA signing and they feel he's an upgrade on Gagner, i'm all for moving him....out!

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#39 gcw_rocks
December 24 2013, 09:44PM
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Beware small sample sizes. A sample size of one is especially suspect. Until he puts together a run of 15 or 20 games of solid defence, and he does it against real competition and not the weak sisters of the league, I am not sure why we would assume anything has changed.

Slow news day I guess.

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#40 Walter Sobchak
December 24 2013, 09:54PM
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@David S

Re-Comment # 14

Good points Dave, I usually agree with a lot of your entries, but I think we’re going to have to disagree on this.

The first point, how is the Defensemen responsible for Gagner’s man? How does the defenseman actually play into Gagner’s defensive decisions or play?

My issue is this, Gagner’s goes to the wrong man constantly, almost without fail.

He rarely is in the right position in his zone for a center, has repeatedly picked up the wrong man on cycles, is far too easily boxed out by other players & his player positioning is terrible for a center, (he’s always on the wrong side of the puck).

His back checking is as bad, His overall defensive stats are always weak, MC79 has done some great work on this, one thing that’s has been consistent is Gagner’s weak defensive play.

Second point –agree & disagree here, You can only teach defense to players that want to learn defense, there is also some inherent skill in being able to anticipate and read coverage quickly, some have it, other don’t, that instinct can’t be taught. After 7 years the one thing that has been consitant is his weak defensive play, do you think in his 8th year he’ll have an epiphany?

Third point – So the one night they beat the hell out of a tired team with arguable the worst NHL goalie is enough of a sample size to tell you Gagner is going to start playing in the paint?? In 7 years have you ever seen Gagner consistently play that way? I’ve been an Oiler fan since the inception into the NHL; I have never witnessed Gagner as a crease crasher? Not even comparable to a player like Perron, let alone a player like Smyth.

Lastly, even leaving this season out of it, his stats in the NHL for defense is weak, very weak. I do think he’s a really good offensive player, one of our best & most consistent, I won’t argue that.

My take on it – The Oilers need a solid two way center, one that can match up to Thornton, Kopitar, Toews , Backes without being completely dominated.

The Oilers have to get bigger, faster, and stronger. This is not Gagner’s best attributes; they can lose Gagner’s offense to gain a better defensive player.

Management has to decide if they want players that will make the team better or players that have great character & are great people to be around.

Enjoy your holidays.

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#41 wintoon
December 25 2013, 08:53AM
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Gagner is not a 2C capable of helping the Oilers win the Stanley Cup. Many of us know he can't win face offs, can't play defensive hockey, can't play in the corners, the paint or along the boards. He is, however capable of some offense and is a good guy in the room.

Having said this, the Oilers are at a point where they should be trading him for any asset they can get in return. They should also be aware of the top C prospects in the 2014 draft. The way the team is playing we may just get another lottery pick.

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#42 nunyour
December 24 2013, 11:03AM
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I will cut him some slack for the broken jaw,but that didn't stop him from back checking,he is to inconsistent,just like Hemsky,every once and awhile you see their A game,you need players that bring it every nite,especally when they make 5 mil a year.Watched a show last night,the coach was giving the team crap,said it's not my job to motivate you,motivate yourself!!!

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#43 Sizzay
December 24 2013, 11:16AM
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LT,

I respectfully disagree on gagner. There are things to like but not at the point of keeping him. I wanted him traded At his high point last year.

Our top 6 is too small and similar. Nuge, hall, ebs, gagner, yakupov and Perron

We need a two way centre. It doesn't have to be an all star just a responsible player that can contribute 40 to 50 points, like gagner but also play D and add size.

I would much rather ship gagner out then yak or ebs.

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#44 K_Mart
December 24 2013, 01:14PM
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Good game gags. Show me 40 good games and I'll care. Many of these players have had good games. Not many have played well for several in a row.

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#45 Fred
December 24 2013, 03:25PM
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This is off topic, but why is DD ranked 177 in the NHL's top 200 fantasy players?

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#46 RexHolez
December 24 2013, 06:24PM
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Cynic wrote:

Citing plus-minus cheapens an argument? With a fanbase that thinks Peter Gabriel's Volhammer, Closed Fenwicks, and the Queen's Relative's Corgis are real stats? That's funny.

Every stat except wins/losses is valuable around here!

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#47 Spydyr
December 25 2013, 05:48AM
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Ducey wrote:

And if you can't figure out the problems with +/- then you won't change yours either.

Here are a few hints:

1) Gagner came into the league as an 18 yr old. Young players struggle with defense. This tends to improve over time.

2)Gagner has played on a team intentionally trying to tank for rebuild purposes.

3) Gagner has played with other young players. See point 1.

The question is whether he will improve defensively. I think he will. His dad became a very good all round player after also being considered too small to play in the NHL.

He has been in the NHL over seven years and you think he will improve defensively?

Hope you get your Christmas miracle.

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#48 Andy P
December 25 2013, 05:19PM
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Can anyone on this board define at what point of height challenged does a player become a Smurf?

The Oilers have 1 D under 6', and that D won a Stanley Cup and got to a Stanley Cup Final series playing as a #1D pairing with Zdeno Chara.

At forward the Oil has 1 Player at 5'8", 3 at 5'11", and all of the rest are 6" or over. Are these 3 Smurfs? That would be Eberle, Yakupov and Gagner.

Does weight come into the equation of not being pushed around? When does heavy start equalling fat or slow?

Does a person need to be over 200 lbs not to be pushed around? If that is the case, then are Eberle, Nuge, Hemsky, Lander, Yakupov, Smyth and Perron all pushed around as a result of being too light?

If we're going to set a standard, then let's see some point south of the median height of all NHL Forwards or Defensemen as being "too light" and validate that standard by taking a look at the relevant stats of those players.

It seems to me that while the Oilers are not a heavy team, It seems ridiculous to me to call this team a bunch of Smurfs. We only have one player who is less than 5'11", and I would have that player on my team all day long.

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#49 Death Metal Nightmare
December 26 2013, 10:59AM
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Gagner is rarely creative. he is a vulture offensive player that depends on chaos already generated by others to operate in broken defensive situations. show me every single play he has had where he was the one generating the chaos and i'll be that dudes #1 fan if you can find 10 plays this year where he was the one "carrying the water" in goal scoring situations.

that dudes game is bulls**t and always has been

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#50 David S
December 24 2013, 12:10PM
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And I'm not talking about the average value of a 2LC regurgitated from the discard pile who might, MIGHT be as good as the one we already have.

And no, Arco at 20 or so games in isn't going to be the answer alot of you guys think he might be. At least not to a NHL GM making the call.

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