Did Craig MacTavish move Ladislav Smid to Calgary just in time?

Jonathan Willis
January 14 2014 07:37AM

Something funny has happened since Craig MacTavish made the highly criticized trade that sent defenceman Ladislav Smid to the Calgary Flames in exchange for futures. Smid has imploded with the Flames, and that oh-so-weak Oilers defence seemingly hasn’t gotten any worse.

In fact, Smid’s departure appears to have marked bit of a turning point for the Oilers; after going 4-14-2 to start the year Edmonton won the first game post-Smid and has put together a still bad but much improved 11-14-3 record since.

As interesting as that won/lost record is, it’s nothing close to definitive. A lot goes into a win or a loss and often a team’s record with a given player on it is more luck than anything else. All it does is show that the sky hasn’t fallen in Edmonton post-Smid.

But other metrics show a lot more than that.

Ladislav Smid in Calgary

There’s something interesting that happens to Flames defencemen when they get paired with Smid: They get worse. Calgary gets out-shot by a 3:2 margin when Smid is on the ice, and no matter who he is paired with the partner has been better off with almost anybody else.

The following chart shows the percentage of all attempted shots taken by Calgary with a given defence pair on the ice. The break-even mark is 50 percent, with higher being better and lower being worse:

For pure puck-moving defencemen, like Mark Giordano and Dennis Wideman, the addition of Smid to their pairing hurt. In Giordano’s case – and he’s the guy most worth paying attention to since a) we know he is an exceptional defenceman and b) he’s played the most with Smid – the difference was roughly 3.5 shots out of every hundred. In other words, Calgary went from being out-shot 52-48 with Giordano and X on the ice to being out-shot 56-44 with Giordano and Smid.

For guys who aren’t puck-movers, Smid was kryptonite. We’ll ignore T.J. Brodie, since the sample size is so small, but Chris Butler and Shane O’Brien both go from being bad without Smid to being outshot 2:1 when paired with Smid.

In short: in Calgary, Smid has been worse than useless when paired with anybody other than an exceptional puck-mover, and even in the latter pairing he has dragged down the results of that puck-mover.

Ladislav Smid in Edmonton

There is an idea floating around that Smid – a big, tough, physical defenceman who knew what do in his own zone – was carrying regular partner Jeff Petry and that with Smid gone Petry has been exposed as a bad defenceman.

It isn’t a theory that harmonizes with available fact. Let’s start by looking at Petry’s numbers with various partners this year:

The idea that Petry’s a trainwreck just doesn’t work because almost everybody he partners with gets better in the process. Petry has played with five regular partners this year, and it’s not a fantastic list – he’s played with Andrew Ference against tough opposition or he’s played second-pair minutes with a rookie (Anton Belov, Martin Marincin) or the remains of Nick Schultz or Ladislav Smid, who we’re discovering has major holes in his game.

Unsurprisingly, Petry’s looked bad at times. More surprising is this:

  • Ference has been at his best with Petry.
  • The Oilers out-shot the opposition by a wide margin with rookie Belov on the ice with Petry
  • The Oilers out-shot the opposition by a wide margin with rookie Marincin on the ice with Petry

What about Smid’s Oilers numbers?

We’re looking at pretty small sample sizes here, but Smid was a disaster when not paired with Petry and this season he’s been a disaster with anybody other than Petry, Giordano or Wideman.

What to Make of It All

Ladislav Smid has been one of my favourite players to watch for a long time. In interviews he comes across as funny, upbeat and a consummate professional. On the ice, whatever his faults, I’ve never had any reason to doubt he was giving it his all. Blocking shots, making hits, taking hits, whatever; Smid was a guy who always showed up.

So it brings me no pleasure to say this: It looks like something has gone very wrong with the player. With numbers like he’s posting in Calgary, he’ll be lucky if he can hang on as a third-pair defender, and only then if he’s playing with a competent puck-mover. Maybe this is all temporary, and he’ll rebound (I hope so; I’ve always liked the way he plays) but this is an awful stretch of hockey for a guy who has three seasons left at $3.5 million.

As for Craig MacTavish, he was harshly criticized for the Smid trade. But right now, it looks like he cleared a bunch of money, added some prospects and moved a player who wasn’t furthering the cause. If trends continue as they have since the trade, that will be a monumental victory for Edmonton’s general manager. At the very least, it may be wise to tone down the rhetoric condemning him for making the unpopular move.

Finally: It isn’t easy to say nice things about Jeff Petry to Oilers fans. He’s a favoured whipping boy and he probably always will be. But it’s funny how good his partners always seem to look. First, it was Smid. Then it was Anton Belov – whose play fell off at right around the same time he got bumped to the third pairing. Now it’s Martin Marincin, a second-year professional in North America who miraculously seems to be handling second pairing minutes in his first dozen games in the majors. Maybe, just maybe, it’s time to ask whether Petry has something to do with that.

Recently by Jonathan Willis

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Jonathan Willis is Managing Editor of the Nation Network. He also currently writes for the Edmonton Journal's Cult of Hockey, Grantland, and Hockey Prospectus. His work has appeared at theScore, ESPN and Puck Daddy. He was previously founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue. Contact him at jonathan (dot) willis (at) live (dot) ca.
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#51 Zarny
January 14 2014, 10:44AM
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RMGS wrote:

Those who love MacT are loyal to no end. One way to read this analysis is as an ex post facto absolution of a poor trade by the Oilers. A 27-year-old bona fide NHL D is worth more than the marginal prospects gained.

A better way to read this analysis is that all of those who were crying and complaining about the Smid trade were flat out wrong and basing their analysis on years gone by.

Because it was clear to anyone who watched the games that Smid was playing like garbage.

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#52 Still Hopeful
January 14 2014, 10:46AM
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Wasn't Smid the product of the great Kevin Lowe trade moving Chris Pronger quickly after he wanted a trade and getting Smid and Lupul in return.

Where are they now? Not in Edmonton. Burke clearly won that trade.

You don't trade the one guy who pushed the Oilers to the cup final within two weeks unless you get a blockbuster. He jumped the gun.

This was just the start of How Bad Management of the Oilers is.

Make no mistake, this team is going nowhere until Lowe and MacT are gone.

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#53 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 10:48AM
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Still Hopeful wrote:

Wasn't Smid the product of the great Kevin Lowe trade moving Chris Pronger quickly after he wanted a trade and getting Smid and Lupul in return.

Where are they now? Not in Edmonton. Burke clearly won that trade.

You don't trade the one guy who pushed the Oilers to the cup final within two weeks unless you get a blockbuster. He jumped the gun.

This was just the start of How Bad Management of the Oilers is.

Make no mistake, this team is going nowhere until Lowe and MacT are gone.

Lowe got Eberle in that trade as well....

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#54 Still Hopeful
January 14 2014, 10:53AM
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@DigDeepNBleedBlue

No, they got a draft choice and Eberle was available. Doesn't count. They sent, arguably, the MVP of the playoffs and got a draft choice.

The other two players were dudes.

Again, poor management.

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#55 etownman
January 14 2014, 10:59AM
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DigDeepNBleedBlue wrote:

Lowe got Eberle in that trade as well....

Yes indeed, get all the facts before spouting off your hatred!

Even at the time of trade I said it was a good move for the Oilers! I never liked the $3.5m for a left side pairing only d-man who can block shots! Ference & Belov both play a better all around game than Smid in my opinion!

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#56 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:00AM
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Yes, you're right.

Lowe got a first rounder if the Ducks went to the final. Good pucking call, huh?

Then he drafted Eberle 22nd. Good pick too, huh?

But, no, please continue to tell us how you really feel! lol

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#57 etownman
January 14 2014, 11:01AM
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etownman wrote:

Yes indeed, get all the facts before spouting off your hatred!

Even at the time of trade I said it was a good move for the Oilers! I never liked the $3.5m for a left side pairing only d-man who can block shots! Ference & Belov both play a better all around game than Smid in my opinion!

Sorry DigDeep, wasn't directed at you! :-)

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#58 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:02AM
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etownman wrote:

Sorry DigDeep, wasn't directed at you! :-)

No worries, brah!

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#59 TDSM31
January 14 2014, 11:06AM
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JW, good read. Do you have the same analysis for actual shots on goal versus 'attempted shots'....better yet, would you be able to put together the same analysis using scoring chances? Would just be curious to see if the percentages change much using these variables. It just seems that Petry gives up more glaring scoring chances when he's on the ice. I'd rather have Laddy out there blocking 5 or 6 'attempted shots' then having Petry give up 1 or 2 scoring opportunities.

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#60 The Last Big Bear
January 14 2014, 11:10AM
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I am a huge advocate of "advanced" stats when looking for information about forwards, but Corsi measures of any kind are effectively useless when evaluating defencemen, especially defensive defencemen. As a descriminator of defenceman performance, I'd say they're about as useful as +/-.

And I'm not saying Smid has been a Norris candidate in Calgary, but Corsi numbers, even in a WOWY context, are not the metric to use to show this one way or the other.

I think the "advanced" stat metric that best reflects a defenceman's abilities is TOI, which is just another way of explicitly stating that we don't yet have a metric that outperforms a coach's subjective evaluation of defensive defenders.

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#61 hippohero
January 14 2014, 11:12AM
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I remember the Smid trade. "Oh no, how will we ever replace Smid's 42% (5v5 ZS adjusted) close and two annual points?" is what I said about it, if I remember correctly. And then Derek Zona personally stepped in and called me stupid. And then he made fun of me for saying other players could fill in better for Smid. And then he mocked me for mixing up and saying "special teams adjusted" instead of "5v5".

I hate you so much, Derek.

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#62 Cold Hard Truth
January 14 2014, 11:13AM
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Zarny wrote:

The hate some fans have for Petry is the same as the hate some have for Gagner.

It simply isn't rational and stems from them not meeting some delusional expectation some fans have. Gagner hasn't become a #1 C and Petry a top pairing D so the simple folk pile on the hate.

The reality is both are very good players who aren't fully developed and certainly aren't perfect; but both will be very good NHLers for many years to come.

Fans have enough reason to dislike them for what they are, let alone what they ought to be, actually.

I think its you who is over-valuing them.

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#63 Dman09
January 14 2014, 11:16AM
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JW,

I think your also missing a key point to the whole trade.... Laurent Brossoit. He has been more than exceptional in his stint in the ECHL. This guy looks to be a grade A prospect. Fully expect to see him in OKC next season and maybe even get some NHL the season after that. I think the trade was great at the time and it just looks better. However I don't think that trade would have happened if Laurent Brossoit wasn't part of it.

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#64 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:18AM
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hippohero wrote:

I remember the Smid trade. "Oh no, how will we ever replace Smid's 42% (5v5 ZS adjusted) close and two annual points?" is what I said about it, if I remember correctly. And then Derek Zona personally stepped in and called me stupid. And then he made fun of me for saying other players could fill in better for Smid. And then he mocked me for mixing up and saying "special teams adjusted" instead of "5v5".

I hate you so much, Derek.

Hahahaha

Haven't read that site since they tried to argue the cycle is, and I paraphrase, ridiculous.

I don't hate anyone, though. LOL

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#65 The Last Big Bear
January 14 2014, 11:19AM
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For the record, Smid is 6th in Flames defence in TOI/60

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#66 Dman09
January 14 2014, 11:19AM
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DigDeepNBleedBlue wrote:

Yes, you're right.

Lowe got a first rounder if the Ducks went to the final. Good pucking call, huh?

Then he drafted Eberle 22nd. Good pick too, huh?

But, no, please continue to tell us how you really feel! lol

You also need to remember that it was public that Pronger wanted out which would have greatly effected the Value Lowe could get out of the trade.

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#67 Zarny
January 14 2014, 11:22AM
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Still Hopeful wrote:

Wasn't Smid the product of the great Kevin Lowe trade moving Chris Pronger quickly after he wanted a trade and getting Smid and Lupul in return.

Where are they now? Not in Edmonton. Burke clearly won that trade.

You don't trade the one guy who pushed the Oilers to the cup final within two weeks unless you get a blockbuster. He jumped the gun.

This was just the start of How Bad Management of the Oilers is.

Make no mistake, this team is going nowhere until Lowe and MacT are gone.

You should probably at least include the entire trade before driveling about who won.

The draft pick the Oilers also received was Jordan Eberle.

Like it or not, given the circumstances Lowe got good return for Pronger.

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#68 Lochenzo
January 14 2014, 11:23AM
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Dman09 wrote:

JW,

I think your also missing a key point to the whole trade.... Laurent Brossoit. He has been more than exceptional in his stint in the ECHL. This guy looks to be a grade A prospect. Fully expect to see him in OKC next season and maybe even get some NHL the season after that. I think the trade was great at the time and it just looks better. However I don't think that trade would have happened if Laurent Brossoit wasn't part of it.

Terry Jones has a nice little story about him today.

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#69 hippohero
January 14 2014, 11:23AM
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@The Last Big Bear

I don't think advanced stats are "effectively useless" when evaluating defenders. Most Norris trophy winners seem to have a positive corsirel.

Breaking out of the zone is an important duty for defenders, and should show up in their corsi. Add to that the fact that defenders seemingly cannot help or harm their goaltender's SV% to any significant degree, and looking at which D get outshot consistently seems like a decent proxy.

I'm not saying scouting is useless, or that stats should be the only factor, just that the stats should definitely show something. And in Smid's case it's not positive. I think he may be good at limiting chances while in the defensive zone, just that he cannot seem to break out of it.

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#70 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:23AM
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Dman09 wrote:

You also need to remember that it was public that Pronger wanted out which would have greatly effected the Value Lowe could get out of the trade.

Why do I have to remember that? LOL

I get it and I think Lowe did all he could.

Hell, Eberle could turn out to be the main piece that brings in the second coming of Pronger....

My mind just went BOOM!

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#71 pkam
January 14 2014, 11:27AM
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Still Hopeful wrote:

No, they got a draft choice and Eberle was available. Doesn't count. They sent, arguably, the MVP of the playoffs and got a draft choice.

The other two players were dudes.

Again, poor management.

The question is why Eberle was still available at pick 22nd? Why 21 GM passed on Eberle and Lowe and Tambellini didn't?

Other than Stamkos, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Karlsson, who was drafted ahead of Eberle do you think is better?

No credit when they did a good job and only count their mistakes. All management will fail by the way you rate them.

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#72 Nimrod
January 14 2014, 11:32AM
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When you're 29th in the league with an inverted bullet and allowing most goals in the league, pretending that the trade of a guy the team re-signed less than a year ago is somehow a triumph because the team decided to trade him to another team equally bad and that team remaining bad is somehow proof of a brilliant trade?

Desperately clutching at straws is what this is.

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#73 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:34AM
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Nimrod wrote:

When you're 29th in the league with an inverted bullet and allowing most goals in the league, pretending that the trade of a guy the team re-signed less than a year ago is somehow a triumph because the team decided to trade him to another team equally bad and that team remaining bad is somehow proof of a brilliant trade?

Desperately clutching at straws is what this is.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you're a half empty kind of cat. No?

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#74 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:39AM
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@Nimrod

Are you giving props to your own comments? LOL

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#75 Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)
January 14 2014, 11:41AM
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pkam wrote:

The problem with Petry is even he is playing well for most part of the game, he will make one or two mind boggling mistakes and usually it ends with the puck in our net.

That's the result of a guy being asked to do too much. He's trying to compensate for weak D partners. He looks like he could be an above average 3-4 Dman with a reliable partner. Let's hope they don't totally crush his spirit/diminish his skills before things get turned around.

He's not as tough physically as we'd like him too be, but his all round skills more than compensate for his lack of toughness. If Klefbom and J Schultz can develope their all round game, that will make three D men who are deficient in toughness....that's about the max any good team could endure on balance.....the other four need to be Nurse, Biufulyn, type of tough....Ferrence is a good balance of physical and skilled...good for now

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#76 Cold Hard Truth
January 14 2014, 11:42AM
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Nimrod wrote:

When you're 29th in the league with an inverted bullet and allowing most goals in the league, pretending that the trade of a guy the team re-signed less than a year ago is somehow a triumph because the team decided to trade him to another team equally bad and that team remaining bad is somehow proof of a brilliant trade?

Desperately clutching at straws is what this is.

That's all the writers are left to write about.

Common Willis foil: isolate a variable within the team, find a stat which challenges popular concensus, decide the parameters of the stat based on the argue bet you would like to make, then use into construct an argument which demonstrates what a genius MacTavish is.

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#77 tileguy
January 14 2014, 11:45AM
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Zarny wrote:

I hadn't checked the stats but I'm not surprised. It was obvious Smid was playing terrible just by watching. 4th liners were walking out from the corner to net and Ladi was even brushing their jersey.

I always liked Smid. The guy was a warrior but his play dropped off a cliff this year. He was the worst skater and puck-mover on Edm's blueline this year. They certainly haven't missed him.

The "outrage" by some fans is based on wishful thinking that Smid was/is a top 4 D. Maybe at times in the past but not this year. Not even close. Given his salary and play MacT was right to trade him.

Agree with everything JW and you have said except for one thing. I beleive the outrage was caused by the return and it will be very interesting to see what the flames get at the trade deadline when he is moved, if they can move him because of the contract.

All in all this is MacT undoing a tambo wrong.

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#78 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 11:45AM
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@Cold Hard Truth

And you what the "disgruntled" "fan" has left?

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#79 Cold Hard Truth
January 14 2014, 11:59AM
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DigDeepNBleedBlue wrote:

And you what the "disgruntled" "fan" has left?

I'm not really disgruntled.

It would be nice to read a piece from Willis that is even mildly critical of management; instead, we just get palliative pieces.

Also, you can isolate any statistic, remove it from its context, then have it demonstrate anything you'd like.

Bottom line is the Oilers have done even worse this year than last -- which, considering how bad they've done in previous seasons, is an accomplishment in itself.

MacTavish's trade doesn't look as stupid as it initially did? So what. The bottom line is the same; that's the only thing that matters.

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#80 Nimrod
January 14 2014, 12:04PM
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"Edmonton won the first game post-Smid and has put together a still bad but much improved 11-14-3 record since."

Oilers record the 8th November was 4-11-2 and is now 15-28-5. This should result in a 11-17-3 record since the trade.

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#81 The Real Scuba Steve
January 14 2014, 12:08PM
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Zarny wrote:

You should probably at least include the entire trade before driveling about who won.

The draft pick the Oilers also received was Jordan Eberle.

Like it or not, given the circumstances Lowe got good return for Pronger.

I can't believe i'm sticking up for Kevin Lowe, but Kevin Lowe wouldn't have won Pronger trade no matter where he went. With his cap hit Kevin Lowe hands were tie. Looking back I wish the Oilers did to Pronger like they did to Souray.

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#82 Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)
January 14 2014, 12:09PM
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Smid was an ok to average D man....in a below average group. I was ok with the trade simply on the basis that he like others ( Sam Gagner, Nick Scultz, Ryan Smyth, etc) are not part of the long term solution here.

I never had a problem with Smid....I just never thought Smid was a very good skater, passer, shooter, fighter, hitter. His reputation for being tough was in comparison to his weak teammates, who are/ were among the softest in the league. I really have a bias against "qualifiers" like Sam Gagner is tough "for a little guy" or Laddy Smid " can't skate but man he blocks a lot of shots"......xxx "plays well for a young guy"....xxx "plays well for an old guy"....etc

Could you have gotten a better return? I think the Oilers amateur scouts put a higher value on Brossiot than most teams do. I doubt that MacT sold Smid on the cheap....makes more sense that he shopped him and other teams around the league saw a 5-6 Dman at $3.5 million and took a pass. You don't trade players, you trade contracts.

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#83 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 12:10PM
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That's a fair, well thought-out, and articulate retort. And, frankly, I don't care about your feelings toward the writer.

However, would you like to discuss the merits of the trade? Or will your conclusion always be that it was/is "stupid?"

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#85 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 12:11PM
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@Cold Hard Truth

That last comment was directed your way.

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#86 FireKLowe
January 14 2014, 12:17PM
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Still Hopeful wrote:

Wasn't Smid the product of the great Kevin Lowe trade moving Chris Pronger quickly after he wanted a trade and getting Smid and Lupul in return.

Where are they now? Not in Edmonton. Burke clearly won that trade.

You don't trade the one guy who pushed the Oilers to the cup final within two weeks unless you get a blockbuster. He jumped the gun.

This was just the start of How Bad Management of the Oilers is.

Make no mistake, this team is going nowhere until Lowe and MacT are gone.

That is exactly what I have been saying for years. KLowe botched the Pronger trade big time and it's been downhill ever since. You don't trade a bonafide #1 D-man in the league for picks and unproven prospects. KLowe should've been fired for that offence alone.

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#87 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 12:23PM
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FireKLowe wrote:

That is exactly what I have been saying for years. KLowe botched the Pronger trade big time and it's been downhill ever since. You don't trade a bonafide #1 D-man in the league for picks and unproven prospects. KLowe should've been fired for that offence alone.

Annnnd, here's one of those "disgruntled fans."

LOL

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#88 The Last Big Bear
January 14 2014, 12:24PM
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hippohero wrote:

I don't think advanced stats are "effectively useless" when evaluating defenders. Most Norris trophy winners seem to have a positive corsirel.

Breaking out of the zone is an important duty for defenders, and should show up in their corsi. Add to that the fact that defenders seemingly cannot help or harm their goaltender's SV% to any significant degree, and looking at which D get outshot consistently seems like a decent proxy.

I'm not saying scouting is useless, or that stats should be the only factor, just that the stats should definitely show something. And in Smid's case it's not positive. I think he may be good at limiting chances while in the defensive zone, just that he cannot seem to break out of it.

Martin Marincin leads the NHL in CorsiRel among players with >10 games. Followed by Brent Burns and Jean-Phillipe Cote.

Did you honestly just try to defend using this stat to evaluate defencemen?

Anton Strahlman is barely even the best defenceman in the NHL named Anton Strahlman, but he's top 10 in CorsiRel, and even has tougher QoC and zone starts than several of the guys ahead of him.

Of the top 30 CorsiRel defencemen in the NHL, I would say 3 or 4 of them are even the best defenceman on their team.

On the other hand, look at TOI/60. See the difference? The worst you can say about any of those guys is that they're the best defenceman on a bad team.

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#89 Oilbaron
January 14 2014, 12:28PM
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IMO Smid can appear pretty cocky sometimes. When traded I wondered (just for fun) if he ever used that 4-year/$3.5 million contract as clout in the dressing room, rubbing other players and management the wrong way. I don't question his passion for the game, but he also seems like a player who can act like a black hole during times of losing.

This data partly supports my theory at least

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#90 FireKLowe
January 14 2014, 12:29PM
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DigDeepNBleedBlue wrote:

Lowe got Eberle in that trade as well....

Getting Eberle via the Pronger trade was pure fluke!

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#91 Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)
January 14 2014, 12:31PM
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The Real Scuba Steve wrote:

I can't believe i'm sticking up for Kevin Lowe, but Kevin Lowe wouldn't have won Pronger trade no matter where he went. With his cap hit Kevin Lowe hands were tie. Looking back I wish the Oilers did to Pronger like they did to Souray.

I wish they did to Souray what they did to Pronger. Put your ego aside and make the trade.

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#92 FireKLowe
January 14 2014, 12:33PM
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Dman09 wrote:

You also need to remember that it was public that Pronger wanted out which would have greatly effected the Value Lowe could get out of the trade.

No it wouldn't have. Pronger didn't want out because he had problem with the team but rather for personal reasons. Waiting for a better trade would not have diminished Pronger's value given that he was the best D-man in the league by a mile. KLowe rushed the trade when he could've used the entire summer to find a better deal.

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#93 DigDeepNBleedBlue
January 14 2014, 12:34PM
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FireKLowe wrote:

Getting Eberle via the Pronger trade was pure fluke!

Lets be honest with each other. You don't want to hear/read my opinion on this trade or any other Oilers' transaction. You just want to throw sh*t at the fan. 'Cause you can. Am I right?

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#94 FireKLowe
January 14 2014, 12:35PM
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Zarny wrote:

You should probably at least include the entire trade before driveling about who won.

The draft pick the Oilers also received was Jordan Eberle.

Like it or not, given the circumstances Lowe got good return for Pronger.

No he did not! You're an idiot for thinking that. Getting Eberle was pure fluke! Now had Eberle been a roster player or prospect for the Ducks then you can say Lowe knowingly made a good deal.

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#95 pkam
January 14 2014, 12:43PM
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Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty) wrote:

I wish they did to Souray what they did to Pronger. Put your ego aside and make the trade.

Pronger is a franchise defenseman every team would like to have, and 6.25M is a great contract.

Souray at 5.4M not that easy to trade. We had put him on waiver twice and nobody was willing to bite. Do we have to package some draft picks or prospects to sweeten the pot to do him a favor?

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#96 The Swarm
January 14 2014, 12:52PM
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It was a decent return for an over rated defenseman. Smid was not lacking in the will department, but seriously lacked any hockey IQ. A crisp, quick outlet pass? Forget it, everything was high off the glass. Then rinse and repeat. I still remember him leaving the front of the net to chase a guy behind the net when he was "defending" a 5 on 3 PP. You can guess what happened next.

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#97 Johny22J
January 14 2014, 12:57PM
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Can anyone explain to me what "future considerations" actually means in a trade? Was the player essentially given away or is that actual compensation?

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#98 Romulus' Apotheosis
January 14 2014, 01:01PM
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@Jonathan Willis

Finally: It isn’t easy to say nice things about Jeff Petry to Oilers fans. He’s a favoured whipping boy and he probably always will be. But it’s funny how good his partners always seem to look. First, it was Smid. Then it was Anton Belov – whose play fell off at right around the same time he got bumped to the third pairing.

This is not a fair or complete assessment of Belov's WOWY.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1802&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

He's actually played more 5x5 with 19 (192:00 TOI).

19 is 49.7CF% with 77 and 41.5% without 77

If Belov's numbers only went up with 2, you'd have a case. But, he makes everyone he's played significant minutes with (minus Larsen, that pairing is a black hole, both get much worse together) better. Including the woeful Nick Schultz

77 and 15 played 87:18 TOI 5x5 together

15 is 46.8CF% with 77 and 41.4% without.

I think there is a case to be made that 77 isn't a case of "who's zooming who" when paired with 2, but rather a case of mutual flourishing.

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#99 Zarny
January 14 2014, 01:10PM
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FireKLowe wrote:

No he did not! You're an idiot for thinking that. Getting Eberle was pure fluke! Now had Eberle been a roster player or prospect for the Ducks then you can say Lowe knowingly made a good deal.

Spare me your drivel you dumb tard.

Lowe got a 1st round pick which turned into Eberle. That isn't pure fluke. Good fortune perhaps, but the intent of getting the 1st round pick was to draft a player of that caliber.

No different than Bos using the 2nd overall pick from the Kessel trade to draft Seguin. It wasn't a fluke. It was good fortune that the pick turned out to be #2 overall but a quality 1st round player is exactly what Bos knew they would draft with the pick. Same with Edm.

Had Eberle been drafted with a 6th round pick from the trade...that would have been a fluke because very few players drafted in that position turn out like Eberle. Middle first round? Not even in the same vicinity as surprising.

Like it or not, Lowe made a good deal under the circumstances.

But, of course, idiots like you who drivel away never actually have an answer for what Lowe missed out on...so let's hear it...what trade did Lowe miss out on when Pronger was moved?

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#100 samurai003
January 14 2014, 01:11PM
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Great stats JW! Can you run this on the whole team, and then filter out who is dragging the team down?

Maybe they should run these kind of stats before trading/acquiring a player, coach, POHO.

Also, can you send a link to Calgary - I'm sure they'd love to read this. This is going to get the pot boiling!

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