There is something wrong with Taylor Hall

Jonathan Willis
January 16 2014 09:05AM

 

According to the general manager Edmonton Oilers, Taylor Hall is coming along nicely as a hockey player. He is making good decisions and playing better than ever this season.

Maybe he's right. But the data emphatically points to something having gone sideways in the game of the Oilers’ best offensive player.

MacTavish

David Staples, in his fantastic interview with Craig MacTavish last week, mentioned to the G.M. that most of the Oilers’ young stars had seen their play slide under Dallas Eakins. MacTavish disagreed, and specifically noted Hall’s play.

“I don’t think it’s accurate in what I’m seeing,” said MacTavish. “When you talk to people that know hockey very well they will tell you that they are seeing structural changes in Taylor Hall. His game is changing.”

MacTavish specifically noted Hall’s play on a goal against Tampa Bay on January 5:

MacTavish described the play as “living to fight another day” – Hall opting for the dump-in rather than trying to beat two players and turning the puck over and favourably compared that style of play to the one employed by Anaheim’s top line.

The Data

Here’s the thing: if Hall’s game has improved, over time we should see that in the results. So, for example, if he’s avoiding the bad high-risk plays he did in years past we should (all else being equal) expect to see that reflected in numbers like his shots against totals. If his two-way play overall is improved, the Oilers should be out-chancing the opposition more frequently than they have in prior years.

But that isn’t what’s happening.

The chart above looks complicated, but it’s really very simple. What we’re looking at is Oilers shot totals with Hall on and off the ice over the last two seasons.

Last year, Edmonton out-shot their opposition by six shots an hour with Hall on the ice. They were out-shot by nearly 10 shots per hour with Hall off the ice; in other words, the Oilers shot differential improved by 16 (a massive, massive number) when Hall stepped on the ice.

This year, it’s a disaster. The Oilers have actually improved significantly with Hall off the ice – instead of getting out-shot by 10 shots per hour, they’re only being out-shot by half that (and yes, that’s pathetic, but it still represents a pretty big improvement). The problem is that suddenly the Oilers are terrible with Hall on the ice. Not only are they allowing 2.5 shots more per hour than they did a year ago, but they’ve gone from generating 36 shots per hour with Hall on the ice down to 27. That’s a massive drop, a 25 percent reduction in shots for.

Well, maybe Hall’s playing tougher minutes. Except that he isn’t; we can go back and look at who Hall is playing and to quote from that linked Tyler Dellow post, “At home, where Eakins has more control over the matchups, Hall seems to be getting matchups as easy or easier than last year.”

Well, is Eakins is starting him less in the offensive zone? Nope; according to Behind the Net 55 percent of Hall’s non-neutral zone shifts were in the offensive zone last season. This year that number is 57 percent.

Hall’s still scoring, but if the shot numbers don’t improve that isn’t going to last.

The chart above shows two statistics. The first is on-ice shooting percentage, and there’s a pretty clear pattern. With Hall on the ice in three of the last four years, the Oilers have done a slightly better job than the NHL average of finishing on their shots, scoring on between 9.0 and 9.5 percent of all shots taken. This year, the total is 11.3 percent.

That means either the Oilers’ top line has evolved into the league’s best finishing line… or it’s riding a streak of goals going in that isn’t going to last.

The second number is “individual points percentage,” which is a fancy way of saying the percentage of goals a player is on the ice for that he gets points on. So a player who is on the ice for 10 goals and picks up nine points, he would have an IPP of 90.0 percent. What we’ve found looking over years of data is that some years a player picks up points on a weirdly high number of the goals scored when he’s on the ice (generally coinciding with a career year) and sometimes doesn’t get those points (generally coinciding with a terrible points year). Over time, though, those totals average out.

Sidney Crosby is the best player in the league at this (big surprise, he’s driving the offence on his line) and generally averages out in the 85 percent range. Taylor Hall topped 90 percent last year and this season is over 100 percent - somehow he has 29 five-on-five points despite only being on the ice for 27 five-on-five goals.

All of this is a long way of saying that Taylor Hall’s great point totals are not to be trusted. The Oilers aren’t generating shots when he’s on the ice. He’s getting away with it because Edmonton is scoring on a high percentage of their shots when he’s on the ice and because he’s picking up points on all of those goals and some other ones besides. History suggests, rather strongly, that these things will not continue.

What to Make of It All

So we find ourselves in a situation where the data we have directly contradicts the statements of the general manager. MacTavish sees Hall’s play as progressing nicely; the data says he’s fallen off a cliff.

Neither of these is to be dismissed lightly.

MacTavish was an excellent coach in Edmonton, something which was dramatically emphasized by what happened to the team when he was replaced by Pat Quinn. He knows much, much more about how players should execute a system than I do, and much, much more than the comments section here knows too.

On the other hand, I’ve lost track of the number of players I’ve seen riding a percentage bubble who have seen their numbers fall dramatically in the years that followed. Jordan Eberle is probably the best recent Oilers example because people will remember the debate following his breakthrough 2011-12 campaign (76 points in 78 games). In the 96 games since he has a total of 74 points, a 63-point pace over 82 games. It’s a fall that was predicted for the same reasons I’ve cited above with Hall.

I hate to disagree with MacTavish, but the data has been awfully reliable in the past and there’s really only one way to interpret it. Something has gone sideways with Hall’s game this season.

Recently by Jonathan Willis

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Jonathan Willis is a freelance writer. He currently works for Oilers Nation, Sportsnet, the Edmonton Journal and Bleacher Report. He's co-written three books and worked for myriad websites, including Grantland, ESPN, The Score, and Hockey Prospectus. He was previously the founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue.
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#101 RexHolez
January 16 2014, 05:17PM
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There is somthing wrong with Hall. It's called who cares if we win. the season is over and the team I've been playing on for 4 years sucks

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#102 Freewheeling Freddie
January 16 2014, 09:18PM
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JASON wrote:

I would suggest to you, Freddie, that the better teams do CARE about advanced stats. They just don't WORRY about it too much because their #'s are good. Hence the win's.

Oilers advanced stats are not so good. Hence the losses.

Better teams are only concerned with the playoffs .Once a team reaches 16 wins they hoist the cup not a corsi number or advanced stat.Believe me when the oilers make the playoffs nobody will care about advanced stats.

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#103 Marc
January 17 2014, 07:43AM
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Here is the news flash. The Oilers have had horrible D for years. They haven't developed one bonafide NHL D man and haven't traded for one, other than ones they ran out of town after a year or two. Instead, they traded their bigger tougher D. Fistric, Smid. Did nothing on goal tending over the summer. Brought in a smaller local D man (Ferrence). Brought in a new coach. Tinkered around the edges and did nothing to fix the 50 foot hole in the Titanic. The back end. And surprise, surprise. Having a softer D has only made us worse. Having inadequate goal tending hasn't helped either. But MacT thought the problem was with the coaching? Yeah.....there is no brain trust here. I'm glad he has his MBA. Maybe he should get a job in finance or marketing, take all his old Oiler buddies like Lowe, Buchberger, Acton, Smith.....all of them. And leave. Go manage a team with Gretzky. He couldn't run one either.

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#104 cambosmash
January 16 2014, 10:09AM
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It looks like Hall has improved his game in the offensive end. He is able to control the puck on the boards and keep possession for long periods of time once they've gained the zone. His TOs at the offensive blueline seem to have decreased. He has become a monster on the offensive boards.

In the defensive zone he's getting pushed off the puck. He attempts backpasses through the legs numerous times a game to get the puck out near the blueline. He has issues clearing the puck and gives the other team possession back frequently. He has become a 12-year old girl on the d-zone boards.

I have no idea how he can regress so much in the defensive zone that it's counteracting and even overcoming how much he's improved his possession in the O-zone.

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#105 Toro
January 16 2014, 10:19AM
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I never did agree with Oilers getting rid of Kreuger after only 48 games when the team finally was improving in the standings, and Eakins style of coaching isn't built for this Oilers team, I wonder if Eakins has a longer leash because Mac T won't wanna admit that the coaching change was the wrong move.

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#106 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
January 16 2014, 10:20AM
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GriffCity wrote:

Hall's play has been hot and cold I will give you that much but certainly not deserving of an entire article. Not when players such as Gagner and Eberle have been doing far worse this season. Hall is still the Oilers best offensive player.

I kind of hate having to rag on you JW but so many of your write ups have no substance to them. If you're going to criticize, do it on a player that everyone will agree on, trust me there are several to choose from.

The stats presented don't match what I've seen by eye either, but what a stupid comment this is.

Willis, please propagate the giant circlejerk that these comment threads have become. Pick an article topic that won't ruffle any feathers. That's why we all come to this website, isn't it?

People rip on Bob Stauffer constantly for not asking the tough questions, then pile on when Willis does.

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#107 nWo4life
January 16 2014, 10:22AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

I do want to make one point which I think most have picked up on. We're comparing Hall's underlying numbers to his fantastic performance last season. I don't think there's any doubt that Hall is an exceptional player, and given that his talent is bound to win the day eventually.

His underlying numbers have dipped sharply this season, and I only see two plausible possibilities: coaching or injury. If it's coaching it might be a case of short-term pain for long-term gain or it might be that Kreuger had a better idea of how to deal with the player than Eakins does. If it's injury, he'll heal. In either case, I doubt we're looking at a permanent drop-off.

Perhaps last season shot +/- was an outlier?

How did these numbers look in years prior to 2012/2013?

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#108 Fish
January 16 2014, 10:28AM
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I wonder if this is related to the 8:00 am practices that Struds referred to as a "reverse curfew". Is there a little too much extra curricular activity going on for Hall to be effective? He is a young stallion with fame, loads of money and beautiful puck bunnies lining up for him.

Coincidence does often mean random and unrelated events

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#109 Fish
January 16 2014, 10:29AM
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Not saying he isn't a great player, but there could be a link.

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#110 Truth
January 16 2014, 10:35AM
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@Fish

Could be quite the opposite. If he was a much better player in his first seasons here they should remove the curfew. He used to be a regular at a few spots on Friday and Saturday nights.

I still think it comes down to coaching. It's the reverse Perron, if Hall played with Hitch in St.Louis, or god forbid under Lemaire in the old Wild system I would guess his numbers would be ugly.

Krueger was admittedly run and gun, create chances off the transition. That plays directly to Hall's strengths. Eakins is a get the puck in the corner, turn it over, cycle the puck, create a matchup problem or defensive lapse, and create a scoring chance. Not Hall's game at all.

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#111 Dqgc
January 16 2014, 10:43AM
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@Jonathan Willis

I see a couple other possibilities:

Could it be possibile that a young rich athlete is enjoying to excess the many fruits and temptations that are available to young rich men? It wouldn't be the first time, and, with nothing to play for except pride and stats... (Could Eakins' 8am practices be a team internal way of handling?)

Or maybe it's not so nefarious - maybe just human nature that when there's "nothing to play for" in a 22 year old mind, that subconsciously that extra gear stays in reserve?

Or could it be his shoulder? Or maybe it's because we're in the Pacific division this year?

But a good article none-the-less. If nothing else it could start some entertaining controversy.

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#112 Lochenzo
January 16 2014, 10:45AM
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Thanks for the numbers. A little surprising that they're that bad, but I am aware of some warts in Taylor Hall's game so I'm not totally blown away.

Taylor Hall has cut down on the turn overs in the neutral zone that plagued him early in the season. But he still makes some unnecessary turnovers in the offensive zone. Just silly little things. If he cuts down on that, those shot differentials will improve.

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#113 NewfoundlandOil
January 16 2014, 10:52AM
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/games/1345952/edmonton-oilers-vs-dallas-stars/

Here is the link to the highlights of the Stars game.

WRT Taylor Hall, he, Nuge and Gagner are on the ice for 2 of the goals against, but from what I see Hall's positioning is excellent and he is covering his man. On two occasions his linemates blow coverage to allow a goal against. I know we are talking shots here but lets assume these serve as examples.

At 15 seconds, the first Dallas goal, Ference goes down to try and block the pass but fails and is out of the play. Nuge gets knocked down in front of the net and loses his man. Hall is covering the winger in the far circle. Schultz id late to come back (I believe he pinched on the play at the other end). Gagner coasts into the zone, knees straight, stick horizontal watching it all unfold. Hall was not the problem on this goal, but tow of his linemates were taken out of the play, one was late coming back and the other (Gagner) just counldn't be bothered....

At 40 seconds, Hall not on the ice but worth a note. On the PK Arcobello way blows his coverage on Jamie Benn on the point which allows the easy pass and gift to Benn.

At 50 seconds, Two D go in deep against two Stars players to try and win the puck battle. Hall is on his side on the half wall available for the outlet pass. Both Nuge and Gagner (both playing center at this point) are late to the show. Neither gets a man and are seen turning up ice as the goal is scored.

Just a couple examples from the last game where I note, in this context: 1) Hall's positioning is good, but his assignment is not primarily as a defensive forward, he is the outlet man. 2) Horrible blown coverage by Ference, Schultz, Arcobello, Gagner and Nuge directly led to these goals. 3) Is this what Eakins means when he states he assumed the team could play basic defense?

I know the WOWY suggests otherwise but I still wonder if its these types of plays, Hall's specific deployment as an offense first guy, and consistent blown coverage by his linemates are having an impact on his season.

Gagner on the first goal, sheesh skate ffs, get involved. He looked totally disinterested.

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#114 Kr55
January 16 2014, 10:55AM
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Is Eakins trying to turn us into the Leafs? Playing a dumb style of hockey that completely depends on luck to win? Then claim to everyone you're a genius and everything you're getting players to do is the right thing and stats guys are dumb.

Guess he did come from the leafs system, so it's not that much of a stretch.

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#115 Terran
January 16 2014, 10:56AM
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I was wondering about a couple things Jonathan. I know you review many games, so you might have the answers. 1. Is the shot drop off perhaps due to Hall taking less low quality shots? Previous years, he would streak into the offensive zone and snap a shot from just over the blue line. This year, he seems to be playing a more possessive game, trying to gain the zone and keep the puck for a better opportunity. Could this explain (part of) the drop off in shot totals?

2. Could part of this be due to Hall trying to restructure his game? I remember reading a few years ago, when Tiger Woods changed his game that there was quite a period of time when his game dropped off due to him having to basically relearn how to play.

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#116 Still Hoping
January 16 2014, 11:18AM
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"When you talk to people that know hockey very well they will tell you that they are seeing structural changes in Taylor Hall. His game is changing.”

If Mac - T was so smart he would know that people who KNOW hockey, are talking about the Oilers Management behind closed doors just like Burke talk about Ryan.

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#117 Dman09
January 16 2014, 11:20AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

I do want to make one point which I think most have picked up on. We're comparing Hall's underlying numbers to his fantastic performance last season. I don't think there's any doubt that Hall is an exceptional player, and given that his talent is bound to win the day eventually.

His underlying numbers have dipped sharply this season, and I only see two plausible possibilities: coaching or injury. If it's coaching it might be a case of short-term pain for long-term gain or it might be that Kreuger had a better idea of how to deal with the player than Eakins does. If it's injury, he'll heal. In either case, I doubt we're looking at a permanent drop-off.

Any chance we could see the quality of the defense-men that Hall has played with for last season and the current?

I just get the feeling that the quality of defense-men has gone down since last season.

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#118 etownman
January 16 2014, 11:51AM
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There are lot's of things happening on the ice that have an bearing on the numbers of individual players! Personal injury that may be hampering him, bad goals which have been abundant this year, frequently changed linemates etc. One thing I'm most happy to see with Hallsy is that he isn't going to take any cheap crap anymore! Hall is doing just fine thank you very much!

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#119 pkam
January 16 2014, 11:54AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

Basically that while the superficial appearance (points) hasn't changed, the way they're coming has changed dramatically, and not in a good way.

I don't know why, but in previous cases this sort of thing has eventually resulted in a pretty significant drop-off in production.

The message is basically this: something has changed for the worse and the Oilers won't get away with it forever.

That is the message that I initially get from your article, kind of like the warning 2 years ago about Eberle high S%.

Then came your post of the 2 plausible reasons and both will be temporary and not permanent, which contradicts the message I read from the article.

So at the end, the message I get is a warning that we shouldn't have to worry as it is most likely temporary and not permanent. That is where I got confused. And now another one that says we won't get away with it?

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#120 BC BOY
January 16 2014, 11:57AM
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Or maybe the Oilers are a worst team this year? Can't blame Hall for what the other four guys are doing on the ice. Its not his fault our defence struggles to advance the puck and can't break up cycles. Plus he is either playing with gagner or hopkins and both are bad in the face off circle.

I agree with Mactavish I do see him maturing and not turning the puck over as much. You can also see his effort is better on the backcheck. So to me growth as an individual in a young player seems more important than a stat that is partially team oriented.

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#121 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
January 16 2014, 12:09PM
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Not sure it's fair to compare a player's Corsi from year to year without normalizing the data.

If today's NHL teams are built to win by dominating the possession game by wearing teams down, a good player will not have as much of an impact when his team is getting steamrolled, shift in and shift out, game in and game out.

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#122 Tikkanese
January 16 2014, 12:26PM
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Dman09 wrote:

Any chance we could see the quality of the defense-men that Hall has played with for last season and the current?

I just get the feeling that the quality of defense-men has gone down since last season.

I agree. The answer to "there is something wrong with Hall" is nothing. It is the play of the defense and the team in general.

It is a team game last I checked. We can all see the improvements in Hall's game week to week. Almost never toe drags any more, is starting to dump it in instead of trying to beat 3 guys by himself, etc.

His other winger for the majority of the season has been either Eberle or Yakupov and neither of them have taken a step forward this season.

The failed Hall at center experiment also hurts his stats. Do not forget that.

The defense including JW's favourite Petry, has been pretty abysmal overall. I don't think there is anything wrong with Hall.

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#123 rubbertrout
January 16 2014, 12:29PM
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So are you saying that shouting "SHOOOOT!" from the stands or at the TV won't actually help?

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#124 Jason Gregor
January 16 2014, 12:34PM
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@Jonathan Willis

If the stats suggest every player got worse playing with Hall, it is possible that the stat might have some flaws?

Why are the players seemingly "playing better" without Hall, yet they aren't producing actual points, outside of Perron, who played very well for a 6-week stretch?

I'm curious if there are comparables for that, or are Hall's 45 games just an oddity.

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#125 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
January 16 2014, 12:34PM
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Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy! wrote:

Not sure it's fair to compare a player's Corsi from year to year without normalizing the data.

If today's NHL teams are built to win by dominating the possession game by wearing teams down, a good player will not have as much of an impact when his team is getting steamrolled, shift in and shift out, game in and game out.

This is an interesting thought. I'm definitely not an advanced stats kind of a guy, but I would imagine - based on the fact that the team's shot differential is better this year than it was last year - that normalizing the data would amplify the observed phenomenon, wouldn't it?

2012 - 2013 shot differential: -6.0
2013 - 2014 shot differential: -4.3

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#126 K_Mart
January 16 2014, 12:36PM
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I agree that something has changed for the worse, but isn't Hall. Hall is definitely playing better than ever. Unfortunately he has had the worst luck with breakdowns from all linemates while he's out there. Having linemates that seem to always play a poor defensive game with hall makes him look bad because he's the common denominator. But in this case it's clear that he isn't the problem. The shot and chance differential this year is not his fault.

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#127 K_Mart
January 16 2014, 12:39PM
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Also.... Why is corsi labeled as 'advenced' when over time it pretty much just matches up to the shot differential and scoring chance differential?

There's nothing advanced about corsi, Fenwick, or SCA, ETC..

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#128 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
January 16 2014, 12:40PM
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I wonder if part of the explanation lies in how often Hall's scoring chances result in odd-man rushes in the opposite direction. That would seemingly explain why people see Hall's game as improving, while the stats show that the shot differential when he's on the ice is less-favourable than it was last year.

Basically what I'm getting at is... are the Oilers' inexperienced defencemen more likely to pinch or get out of position when Hall's on the ice because they see more opportunities for offence?

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#129 Bigfan
January 16 2014, 12:41PM
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I have often wondered how a player could ever 'give it 110%'. Math-wise, it is not possible. Now, finally, a statistic showing this happening! Hall is over 100% in his IPP stat, even though it is not possible math-wise. Go Taylor! If the rest of team follows, then these years of gloom will be over.

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#130 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
January 16 2014, 12:45PM
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Bigfan wrote:

I have often wondered how a player could ever 'give it 110%'. Math-wise, it is not possible. Now, finally, a statistic showing this happening! Hall is over 100% in his IPP stat, even though it is not possible math-wise. Go Taylor! If the rest of team follows, then these years of gloom will be over.

It is absolutely possible, math-wise. You don't have to be on the ice when a goal happens to be credited with an assist for the goal if you helped set it up before you went off on a change.

What the stat describes - unless I'm mistaken - is that Hall was on the ice when X goals occurred, he was directly involved in Y goals, and that Y is greater than X.

Edit: I went back and looked at the article, and 107% seemed really high to be explained away by the situation described above, even though we're only talking about like 30 GF YTD. I'm thinking that somewhere down the line, Hall's GF have been underreported. I found this chart, and Dec 5/13 sticks out like a sore thumb. Hall had a hat trick that night and added an assist, and he's only credited with 1 GF. I don't know what the explanation for that is.

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#131 Ol' Jase
January 16 2014, 12:48PM
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As the numbers you have cited here seem to be completely inconsistent with those on behindthenet.ca, one of the sources of raw data is not accurate, throwing all these types of analysis into question.

One would think that a player showing more EV points that being on the ice for when EV goals are scored would wave a red flag. Instead, you have used it as the crux of your analysis.

Very questionable logic to say the least.

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#132 K_Mart
January 16 2014, 01:10PM
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"Jordan Eberle is probably the best recent Oilers example because people will remember the debate following his breakthrough 2011-12 campaign (76 points in 78 games). In the 96 games since he has a total of 74 points, a 63-point pace over 82 games. It’s a fall that was predicted for the same reasons I’ve cited above with Hall."

Hmm.... in this article

http://oilersnation.com/2012/7/16/how-many-goals-will-jordan-eberle-score-next-season

You seem to say Eberle's goal total will drop because his SHOOTING PERCENTAGE is too high and assume that his shot total will stay the same. But here you're saying it's the team's shot differential with hall on the ice as the problem. But yet you claim to say you cited the same reasons for predicting eberle's drop...

Either you're lying, or you've forgotten the reasons behind your prediction with Ebs.

Anyway, Hall had strong shot differential numbers for 3 straight years. I'm surprised you aren't saying that it's more likely this is an anomaly and over the next 100+ games he should regress to the norm... or in this case PROgress to his norm.

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#133 Dog Train
January 16 2014, 01:11PM
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I understand that advanced stats can be useful but I think they can be overdone at times. Hall got off to a rough start to the season but from what I have seen, he has bounced back nicely. Regardless of the opposition, I think the fact that he gets so much ice time on such a brutal team makes him more likely to be on for chances against than for chances for.

Again, I appreciate the advanced stats articles because they generate great debate but I still believe that Taylor Hall is more a part of the solution than he is of the problem.

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#134 marty62
January 16 2014, 01:22PM
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Statistics are a wonderful thing, properly manipulated you can make them back up whatever point you see fit. In the midst of our Oilers having one of the worst seasons I can remember, you choose to write an article picking holes in the game of one of our young kids that is making the most of what he can in a very bad season that has had a lot of hurdles for him. If you watch the games closely at all, you don't have to use advanced stats to see that Hall as well as many of the other Oilers are struggling defensively and offensively this year. What you don't seem to see is that Hall is finding a way to get it done despite all this. I would rather you take your slide rule and calculator and go spread your bad vibes somewhere else please.

Thanks

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#135 DrunkGuyTy
January 16 2014, 01:48PM
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Why do other players feel they can relax just because Hall is on the ice to drive the play?

Why must you take the single most positive thing this team has going for it a find a way to put a negative spin on it?

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#136 S cottV
January 16 2014, 02:49PM
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Advance stats are a factor in determining performance in conjunction with "other" factors. No GM or Coach would ignore these stats to "help" size up players, or groups of players on a given team or opposing team.

Playing the odds is something that you wouldnt want to stray too far away from.

Hall is our dominant player, playing on our first line. How the first line goes, is a major factor in whether or not we win or lose.

Whats been happening is the first line generates most of our GF's but in the process -they generate even more GA's.

Hall gets points but the team loses, beyond acceptable levels. Big deal. What's the use?

The advance stats indicate that maybe he can make some adjustments to his game, in conjunction with his line mates - to maybe even reduces GF's a bit, in order to do things that will significantly reduce GA's.

If the first line goes plus or even, more often than not - this team probably gets to .500 hockey on this issue alone.

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#137 Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)
January 16 2014, 03:51PM
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I think the issue here is that MacT and JW are talking about two different things. MacT is happy to see Hall develope a certain style of play....less toes drags, get it deep when it makes sense too do so, etc etc......he's seeing changes in Halls style of play that he calls improvement and that his experience tells him are important. JW is focused on a specific set or sets of measurable results that his experience tells him are important and that happen to point to some limited ways in which Hall may have regressed.

It may simply be that what MacT views as improvement is different than what JW views as improvement. Or perhaps more accurately, it would indicate that MacT and JW have slightly different value systems.

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#138 Oilcan
January 16 2014, 03:59PM
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Is there a stat that has time on attack or time of possession with the puck on the o zone and then a other for other teams time. I feel like the oilers current d gets rolled in the d zone (maybe not giving up a shot) but then the only option is to dump and change. Oilers D blows! (Has this been said this year I can't recall???)

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#139 The Swarm
January 16 2014, 04:00PM
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The Swarm wrote:

Willis

I haven't read all the comments but one obvious difference is that he played RW exclusively last year versus C and RW this year.

Take the games he played C out of the equation and see what happens.

He was a turnover machine earlier in the year when he was playing C AND trying to execute Eakins brilliant swarm system.

EDIT..LW that is

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#140 Jo3128
January 16 2014, 04:05PM
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My husband and I have friendly debates with regards to the Edmonton Oilers at least a few times a week. Lately it's the debate on what's wrong with the Edmonton Oilers and can it be fixed. The one main difference in our approaches is that he is a numbers guy and I tend to be more psychology minded.

With regards to Hall, I agree with some of the comments that the problem may be more with the team then the player. If you look at the psychology of losing it is clear that team effort dissolves into individual efforts when things go down hill. As this is a team game you can't have individuals trying to do it themselves.

We played on a ball team for many years that was by far the worst in the league and I remember how horrible it was to go to the game, try your best and still expect to lose.

I can't say it's the same thing with the oilers, but with players like Hall and Yakopov who play with lots of heart but not as much head, it may eventually feel like they're trying to hold up the team and that's when mistakes such as horrible give-aways happen.

If lots of luck and a few good trades were to happen to the Oilers and a good winning streak comes out of it I bet you anything that the mistakes will go down and team play will resume.

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#141 reaperfunkss (2nd tier fan)
January 16 2014, 04:15PM
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Please people only use what macT says when judging him. DO NOT go by the actions and results because that is just trivia in the long run.

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#142 Oiler Al
January 16 2014, 04:16PM
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Just put Eberle back on the right wing on this line.The RW are all smurfs, so might as well put the best smurf on the first line.

PS> In the meantime lets run an advance stat on Hemsky and Gagner.See how that looks.

Hall takes the play to OZ, and Gagner arrives on the afternoon bus most often than not.

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#143 Evilas
January 16 2014, 04:25PM
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Any impact on Hall's results from the subtraction of Horcoff?

How has he played since Nuge's return and is back on the wing?

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#144 Hopeless in Etown
January 16 2014, 05:13PM
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We are about to hit game 50 and this is a all year analyses. Would you be able to look at this in 10 game spans (i.e. has his stats been improving, declining, or stayed the same). It may be used to compare to MacT's comments

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#145 Ol' Jase
January 16 2014, 09:14PM
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So I'm guessing any follow up to the notion the the data provide in article may been erroneous is not on the table.

It was worth a try.

It would also be safe to assume that you won't be following up with your "look, everyone's worse with Hall than without him" comment by maybe posting Hall's individual S% with those said players as line mates to provide proper context? Or maybe their individual offensive production with or without Hall?

I think we can safely assume the answer, and the reason behind it...

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#146 You know nothing
January 18 2014, 12:02AM
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J.R. wrote:

Don't get me started on that useless, no talent Nugent-Hopkins kid.

Please stop talking. You're embarrassing yourself. Go watch curling or something.

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