LEON AND SAM

Lowetide
July 19 2014 08:56PM

nuge common

The Edmonton Oilers made the call, and now they have to live with it. Sam Bennett is three hours down the QE2 and ready to make life miserable for Leon Draisaitl and the Oilers. Which one would you have chosen? Does it matter? So many questions, and a few answers too.

  1. Which player will be the better offensive force? They're very close, it's difficult to say. Draisaitl's NHL equivalency (82GP, 15-25-40) is a shade better than Sam Bennetts (82GP, 16-23-39) and I think either could end up being the better man. One thing is certain: they BOTH project to be splendid offensive players.
  2. Which player is more likely to make the NHL first? Leon Draisaitl, for a couple of reasons. First, he's older and more physically able to play against men in the NHL (Jason Gregor's recent article has him at 215 pounds—that's incredible!). Second, the Oilers are less able to fill the job Leon will apply for this fall than Calgary can for Bennett. Edmonton simply doesn't have the depth at pivot to seriously consider sending the German away.
  3. Which player is more likely to score more goals in their career? Man, they're even. Each player scored 25 even-strength goals this year, that's a fine total. Leon did it in more games but Sam did it on a better team, so it's a difficult question to answer. Again, both really good at the discipline.
  4. Which player will impact the power play more? I suspect the German. Last season, Leon's totals (64GP, 12-28-40 .625 per game points) were well ahead of Bennett's (57GP, 10-19-29 .509 per game points). Now, Bennett is younger and that factors in, but we know from Draisaitl's scouting report he's great at puck protection and a crazy passer. Those are golden grahams with the man advantage.
  5. Which player will offer the wider range of skills? Bennett. He's already a demon on the forecheck and creates a lot of his offense off broken plays and jailbreaks. That's a heavenly skill, we see it with Hall and Nuge a lot.
  6. Which player did you prefer? I had Bennett No. 1 in a tight race.
  7. Why? Range of skills, as mentioned. Red Line Report called him a "gritty two-way No. 1 center and captain" as a projection, that's a helluva player. 
  8. Who does Red Line compare Bennett to? Doug Gilmour.
  9. Draisaitl sounds less attractive now. Oh no, he's outstanding. Most of his cannons are pointed offensively, but he's a sublime passer and an intelligent playmaker.
  10. Who does Red Line compare Draisiatl to? Ryan Getzlaf.
  11. Okay, I'm better now. This is going to be fun. Besides, Burke will trade Bennett for the next Tyler Biggs before anything gets too far out of hand.

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on TSN 1260.
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#51 blainer
July 20 2014, 11:29AM
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RexHolez wrote:

You may be right that just like death and taxes are guaranteed, so is Lowe being POHO of the oilers. But I'm not looking forward to death, I won't stop complaining about taxes and I won't stop complaining about Lowe

Ok. How about if the oilers win the cup next year? Is that death? How about runners up? Or how about the conference finals.. or even just the playoffs? Kevin Lowe is really there as a buddy to the owner now...In MacT we trust

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#52 Fili
July 20 2014, 11:31AM
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I simply like the fact that Leon "the lion" Draisitl put up one point less than Rinehart, yet did it without any consistent line mates. Which means the kid is a leader he makes everyone on his team better and he doesn't need superstars to play with. This man - boy is huge and only has upside. And watching all the interviews he did, the kid clearly has determination to make the club he knows what he has to work on to make it. And he wants to be the best German born player. That screams success to me.

We threw nuge to the wolves, he came out a hunter. Let's throw the NHL to the lion and see what happens.

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#53 blainer
July 20 2014, 11:44AM
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Fili wrote:

I simply like the fact that Leon "the lion" Draisitl put up one point less than Rinehart, yet did it without any consistent line mates. Which means the kid is a leader he makes everyone on his team better and he doesn't need superstars to play with. This man - boy is huge and only has upside. And watching all the interviews he did, the kid clearly has determination to make the club he knows what he has to work on to make it. And he wants to be the best German born player. That screams success to me.

We threw nuge to the wolves, he came out a hunter. Let's throw the NHL to the lion and see what happens.

I think they had Nurse and Draisaitl room together in Jasper..so one would think there was a lot of talk on what it takes to make the oilers. Nurse was very disappointed when sent down and suspect he is telling LD you better work your ass off if you want to make the oil this year.

On a separate note.. forgot about the Galchneyuk injury year but he was a major connection the year previous. I am really hoping for a breakout year from YAK.. He is an entertaining kid whose excitement can only spill over to the other oilers when he is on his game..

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#54 OiledStatGuy
July 20 2014, 11:52AM
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David S wrote:

I actually feed really bad for Draisaitl. If they keep him up he'll have pretty much zero breathing room and "breaking into the league" will be something he'll never know.

It's one thing where you can bring a player in and shelter him with cherry minutes and veteran players but here he'll be second over the top almost every night. We're talking Verdun with no gas masks bad. I cannot believe MacT will do this to a raw rookie, no matter how much Gritensity™ he has.

Can someone point me to the research that clearly demonstrates that rushing a player to NHL is harmful.

And, can this research respond to the following:

* saying a player struggles who is D#0 or D#1 doesn't prove he'd be better after some maturing. * comparing with someone who breaks out after maturing in minors doesn't prove he wouldn't have done same if in bigs from start. * saying injuries are too big a risk then were is data that this isn't a problem in AHL

e.g. some say Gagner rushed and it harmed him. I've looked at numbers of forwards plus two positions in draft and minus two positions in draft beside Gagner. JVR, Turris, Voracek, and Hamill. Gagner has more points, typically more each season. Guess Hamill will be having a big breakout this year with all that maturing.

So were is the large dataset that proves this point?

p.s. I don't think LD will be on team this year because by eye last year he isn't ready, whereas even lighter RNH clearly had the dzone acumen.

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#55 madjam
July 20 2014, 11:55AM
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37 more goals for and 55 goals less against and playoffs are around the door . Example: Tampa Bay in two seasons went from 281 goals against to 215 and made huge gains to be a viable playoff team again . We are currently only at 270 goals against . 37 more goals would bring our offence up to Tamps as well . Both goals this season are a possibility . Goals for is certainly reachable with youth and Schultz having a much better season and progressing . Yakupov will have to work hard to get his -33 to an acceptable level and also keep his offense progressing . We should also make quite a slice in goals against with new acquisitions and better plus minuses for a bad year last year for the likes of Petry (-22) , Schultz (-22) and Ference (-18) . With solid goaltending this season we might even turn this around this season yet and be this years Colorado . Most hinges on our youth making strides forward instead of backwards as many did last season . They have a beter core for them now to do just that I believe .

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#56 Serious Gord
July 20 2014, 12:16PM
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blainer wrote:

Ok. How about if the oilers win the cup next year? Is that death? How about runners up? Or how about the conference finals.. or even just the playoffs? Kevin Lowe is really there as a buddy to the owner now...In MacT we trust

Klowe said during the season last year that he was involved in the decision making - particularly major moves.

Do you think MacT would go against his bosses opinion - the guy who rehabilitated his career? And if MacT is revealed to be a failure (he gets a failing grade from me thusfar) how long will it take a stubborn guy like Klowe to fire him?

Klowe remains a significant impediment to progress for this team - not the least because his history of deplorable player relations make him and thus the team a pariah in the league for many agents and players.

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#57 Spydyr
July 20 2014, 12:20PM
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OiledStatGuy wrote:

Can someone point me to the research that clearly demonstrates that rushing a player to NHL is harmful.

And, can this research respond to the following:

* saying a player struggles who is D#0 or D#1 doesn't prove he'd be better after some maturing. * comparing with someone who breaks out after maturing in minors doesn't prove he wouldn't have done same if in bigs from start. * saying injuries are too big a risk then were is data that this isn't a problem in AHL

e.g. some say Gagner rushed and it harmed him. I've looked at numbers of forwards plus two positions in draft and minus two positions in draft beside Gagner. JVR, Turris, Voracek, and Hamill. Gagner has more points, typically more each season. Guess Hamill will be having a big breakout this year with all that maturing.

So were is the large dataset that proves this point?

p.s. I don't think LD will be on team this year because by eye last year he isn't ready, whereas even lighter RNH clearly had the dzone acumen.

I don't have a data base just over 40 years of watching and playing hockey.

What happens IMO when a player is rushed :

All players picked high in the draft have exceptional skill with the puck.They have grown up having the puck most of the time and when the don't have it their superior skill allows them to get it back fairly easily.

The do not learn how to play defensively and play without the puck since they have it or want it back.

They do not learn how to play as much without the puck, things like picking up the right man defensively.

Now if that skill player goes from Junior to the NHL without learning a 200 foot game they have to survive on their skill.

When the player goes pro the skill level has a huge jump.Unless they are elite in their skill level most player in the NHL are close to their skill level.They can no longer control the game as they once did and the don't have a complete game to fall back on.

Now letting a player play at a lower level like AHL they have time to develop the skills necessary without the puck before playing in the best league in the world.

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#58 Spydyr
July 20 2014, 12:22PM
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blainer wrote:

Ok. How about if the oilers win the cup next year? Is that death? How about runners up? Or how about the conference finals.. or even just the playoffs? Kevin Lowe is really there as a buddy to the owner now...In MacT we trust

Do you really think every decision with bearing on the team does not cross Lowe's desk first?

He still is the boss the POHO.

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#59 Spydyr
July 20 2014, 12:24PM
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Congrats Rory.The third youngest golfer in history to win three majors.Well done!

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#60 Serious Gord
July 20 2014, 12:28PM
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madjam wrote:

37 more goals for and 55 goals less against and playoffs are around the door . Example: Tampa Bay in two seasons went from 281 goals against to 215 and made huge gains to be a viable playoff team again . We are currently only at 270 goals against . 37 more goals would bring our offence up to Tamps as well . Both goals this season are a possibility . Goals for is certainly reachable with youth and Schultz having a much better season and progressing . Yakupov will have to work hard to get his -33 to an acceptable level and also keep his offense progressing . We should also make quite a slice in goals against with new acquisitions and better plus minuses for a bad year last year for the likes of Petry (-22) , Schultz (-22) and Ference (-18) . With solid goaltending this season we might even turn this around this season yet and be this years Colorado . Most hinges on our youth making strides forward instead of backwards as many did last season . They have a beter core for them now to do just that I believe .

That's a 92 goal swing in differential. That is asking a lot. I wonder how many teams have ever pulled that off?

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#61 Ed in Edmonton
July 20 2014, 12:49PM
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Spydyr wrote:

I don't have a data base just over 40 years of watching and playing hockey.

What happens IMO when a player is rushed :

All players picked high in the draft have exceptional skill with the puck.They have grown up having the puck most of the time and when the don't have it their superior skill allows them to get it back fairly easily.

The do not learn how to play defensively and play without the puck since they have it or want it back.

They do not learn how to play as much without the puck, things like picking up the right man defensively.

Now if that skill player goes from Junior to the NHL without learning a 200 foot game they have to survive on their skill.

When the player goes pro the skill level has a huge jump.Unless they are elite in their skill level most player in the NHL are close to their skill level.They can no longer control the game as they once did and the don't have a complete game to fall back on.

Now letting a player play at a lower level like AHL they have time to develop the skills necessary without the puck before playing in the best league in the world.

This is an interesting argument and likely not one that can be proven one way or the other.

Taking Gagner a an example. There are certainly deficiencies in his game, but I don't think there is an obvious case to be made that his game would be better today at 25 if he2 had 2 more years dominating at junior and then 2 or 3 years in the AHL.

Deficiencies are more noticeable at the NHL and as us Oil fans know watching a young player making the same mistakes over and over is painful. Having said that, I'm not sure if there is any evidence that the lessons would get learned faster in Junior and AHL.

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#62 RexHolez
July 20 2014, 12:50PM
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blainer wrote:

Ok. How about if the oilers win the cup next year? Is that death? How about runners up? Or how about the conference finals.. or even just the playoffs? Kevin Lowe is really there as a buddy to the owner now...In MacT we trust

I have a great deal on an ocean front property nestled in the mountains in saskatchewan for you.

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#63 Spydyr
July 20 2014, 12:54PM
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Ed in Edmonton wrote:

This is an interesting argument and likely not one that can be proven one way or the other.

Taking Gagner a an example. There are certainly deficiencies in his game, but I don't think there is an obvious case to be made that his game would be better today at 25 if he2 had 2 more years dominating at junior and then 2 or 3 years in the AHL.

Deficiencies are more noticeable at the NHL and as us Oil fans know watching a young player making the same mistakes over and over is painful. Having said that, I'm not sure if there is any evidence that the lessons would get learned faster in Junior and AHL.

It is not about learning lessons faster.It is about not having to learn lessons in the best league in the world.The lessons should be learned in a development league like the CHL or the AHL.

Rushing a player forces him to learn at the highest level.A tough task for many.

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#64 Blainer
July 20 2014, 12:59PM
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RexHolez wrote:

I have a great deal on an ocean front property nestled in the mountains in saskatchewan for you.

Jeez..I was gonna try and sell you the same property...lol...Guys I am not defending Lowe or his place in the organization ..I am sure he hands on the pulse..just saying he is not going anywhere and I think we should focus our thoughts and comments on things that WILL happen with the Oilers!!

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#65 Ed in Edmonton
July 20 2014, 01:18PM
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Spydyr wrote:

It is not about learning lessons faster.It is about not having to learn lessons in the best league in the world.The lessons should be learned in a development league like the CHL or the AHL.

Rushing a player forces him to learn at the highest level.A tough task for many.

There is no doubt "learning the lessons" at the NHL level is a tough task for anyone. But I think the question relates to the end result. Is the fully mature 25 year old product likely to better as an 18 year old NHL rookie or a 22 year old rookie? I'm pretty sure the 22 year old rookie would be a better rookie than the 18 year old, but I don't think that's the question.

Perhaps the best argument to avoid 18 year olds in the NHL is the impact of UFA status. By playing an 18 year old, you are reducing the UFA age from 27 to 25. You may be trading two development years as an 18/19 year old for fully mature 25/26 year old years.

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#66 Oilers G- Nations Poet Laureate
July 20 2014, 01:26PM
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Spydyr wrote:

Congrats Rory.The third youngest golfer in history to win three majors.Well done!

Rory wins Open

Dad made bet, Five Hun to One

Four hundred K split.

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#67 OiledStatGuy
July 20 2014, 01:39PM
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Spydyr wrote:

I don't have a data base just over 40 years of watching and playing hockey.

What happens IMO when a player is rushed :

All players picked high in the draft have exceptional skill with the puck.They have grown up having the puck most of the time and when the don't have it their superior skill allows them to get it back fairly easily.

The do not learn how to play defensively and play without the puck since they have it or want it back.

They do not learn how to play as much without the puck, things like picking up the right man defensively.

Now if that skill player goes from Junior to the NHL without learning a 200 foot game they have to survive on their skill.

When the player goes pro the skill level has a huge jump.Unless they are elite in their skill level most player in the NHL are close to their skill level.They can no longer control the game as they once did and the don't have a complete game to fall back on.

Now letting a player play at a lower level like AHL they have time to develop the skills necessary without the puck before playing in the best league in the world.

@Sypder

Yes, but I'm looking for evidence.

If we go by theories I can match everyone that you bring up for why a player should play in bigs if he out competes what the team gives him as competition.

Can skilled players play without puck? It's the premise Bob N says led team Canada to take best players not best by position.

The problem with learning the game at AHL is that you learn an AHL game. You learn where to cheat and cut corners.

Note, I'm saying detrimental for player, not detrimental for team. I think Jason Gregor, for example, gets confused on that point.

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#68 OiledStatGuy
July 20 2014, 01:52PM
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@Ed point taken. You may hold player back for getting more value over term of RFA, agreed. But, this doesn't add to support that development in bigs is detrimental.

Where will Nurse learn fastest that you have to let play come to you as big league defenseman? Evidence doesn't confirm SSM.

@Sypder you say "should" develop in development league. Do you have more supporting points?

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#69 Kevwan
July 20 2014, 03:06PM
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OiledStatGuy wrote:

Can someone point me to the research that clearly demonstrates that rushing a player to NHL is harmful.

And, can this research respond to the following:

* saying a player struggles who is D#0 or D#1 doesn't prove he'd be better after some maturing. * comparing with someone who breaks out after maturing in minors doesn't prove he wouldn't have done same if in bigs from start. * saying injuries are too big a risk then were is data that this isn't a problem in AHL

e.g. some say Gagner rushed and it harmed him. I've looked at numbers of forwards plus two positions in draft and minus two positions in draft beside Gagner. JVR, Turris, Voracek, and Hamill. Gagner has more points, typically more each season. Guess Hamill will be having a big breakout this year with all that maturing.

So were is the large dataset that proves this point?

p.s. I don't think LD will be on team this year because by eye last year he isn't ready, whereas even lighter RNH clearly had the dzone acumen.

I don't think this data would prove a whole lot. The variables of players at various developmental levels combined with teams with different depth levels at the position they drafted would be difficult to filter. For the most part teams picking higher in the draft are getting more skilled players and have more holes to fill in their lineup which skews any comparison.

While we'll never know if Gagner being rushed affected his development, there's no doubt that by 24 he still had problems in his own zone. I think it's safe to say that Nuge wasn't physically developed enough to play the role asked of him as rookie. As for Hall, back to back Memorial Cup MVP's proved he had little to work on in juniors. Yak would've gone back to the KHL so keeping him on the team was understandable.

If the Oiler brass determines that Leon's development would be better served in the CHL than the NHL or vice versa that's fine (and MacT has already said this will be the case.) As a fan I just don't want to hear that "he's better than what we got " - because in the big picture that's irrelevant.

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#70 Ivan Drago
July 20 2014, 03:06PM
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Serious Gord wrote:

Klowe said during the season last year that he was involved in the decision making - particularly major moves.

Do you think MacT would go against his bosses opinion - the guy who rehabilitated his career? And if MacT is revealed to be a failure (he gets a failing grade from me thusfar) how long will it take a stubborn guy like Klowe to fire him?

Klowe remains a significant impediment to progress for this team - not the least because his history of deplorable player relations make him and thus the team a pariah in the league for many agents and players.

Lmao Im sure MacT is losing lots of sleep over internet idiot Serious Gord believing he has failed so far. Cause you know, ol SG knows all the in and outs of being a GM in the NHL. He knows what all the free agent players and their agents are thinking. How all the GM's value their assets, and what every team needs and doesn't need.

Don't TSN and SN know this guy is out there with all this untapped knowledge? They need to sign SG stat because his insight is incredible.

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#71 OiledStatGuy
July 20 2014, 04:53PM
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@Kevwan

@Kerwan

It could be that we can't control the variables enough to determine any correlation between negative development and early entry to league. I'm not ready to give up that this can't be researched.

If you truly believed this, you would have to support your last sentence with a different logic. If the NHL is the best development league and young player beats out the competition, then player should play.

So how would we research this. It is problematic. You will hear people talk about Detroit model as optimal for maturing players. However, we can't just compare Detroit to team that rushes players because Detroit has different inputs to system. That is, their European scout just might be best in business.

We'll need some really large study so as to overcome Detroit biases that can compare "rate of development" for comparable draft positions between early entry to NHL over late entry. Large enough sample might be able to detect correlation.

Until then can we stop pretending there is such a thing as a proven law of negative development in playing draft #0 and +1 players.

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#72 DieHard
July 20 2014, 06:30PM
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@Ivan Drago

This idiot Serious Gord is a troll. He's a Lames fan and should just be ignored. I see his post and trash it and don't bother to read as it is pure crap.

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#73 Kevwan
July 20 2014, 07:21PM
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OiledStatGuy wrote:

@Kerwan

It could be that we can't control the variables enough to determine any correlation between negative development and early entry to league. I'm not ready to give up that this can't be researched.

If you truly believed this, you would have to support your last sentence with a different logic. If the NHL is the best development league and young player beats out the competition, then player should play.

So how would we research this. It is problematic. You will hear people talk about Detroit model as optimal for maturing players. However, we can't just compare Detroit to team that rushes players because Detroit has different inputs to system. That is, their European scout just might be best in business.

We'll need some really large study so as to overcome Detroit biases that can compare "rate of development" for comparable draft positions between early entry to NHL over late entry. Large enough sample might be able to detect correlation.

Until then can we stop pretending there is such a thing as a proven law of negative development in playing draft #0 and +1 players.

I hope you don't give up and I think that your study would be very interesting. I'm just saying that each drafted player and every draft year are unique. In your original example you named the 2007 draft class . JVR was 4" and 10 lbs bigger than Gagner at the draft. He went to UNH and never played in the CHL. Zac Hamill was drafted on to a team that had Marc Savard, Bergeron, Krecji and Brad Boyes ahead of him. Turris held out of training camp and a month of the 10-11 season and Voracek was traded in'11. All of these factors (and more) had an influence on their development and how one would quantify these things is beyond me. Of course years ago nobody thought something like Corsi or Fenwick would be relevant either - so who knows.

As far as acknowledging that the NHL is the best development league I didn't and won't admit that. It probably was for Hall and probably wasn't for Nuge. I'm only interested in putting Leon in a situation based on what's better for his long term development. Don't base this decision on whether he's better than Arco or Lander because he probably already is.

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#74 MessyEH
July 20 2014, 07:48PM
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RexHolez wrote:

How was Yak robbed of the Calder? He was in the running and came close, but I wouldn't say he was robbed.

Stats are nice, but in the end hockey is a team sport and the most important thing is helping your team win. Somthing none of our "core" players have done.

What have the players who "we should have picked" won.

(Seguin was in the press box, or stapled to the bench for his cup.)

Mario "Freaking" lemieux did not change the fortunes of the Penguins over night. Neither did Crosby. To say we choose the wrong players because the team wasn't successful, is ignoring just how lousy a team the Oilers iced.

No matter how great some of you think Seguin and company are. They wouldn't have prevented DD' s implosion. Gagner's injury, or the weak defense we had.

Checked out this link. It explains how Yakupov and Nugent were cheated of there Calder trophies. If they played in the media concentrated east they would have won.

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#75 MessyEH
July 20 2014, 07:57PM
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blainer wrote:

Agreed on the Hall Part. Those memorial cups played a big factor into the decision. I am not disappointed we have Hall at all but as was said I preferred Seguin. Yak was the consensus number one from all the scouting reports I read but yes it was a rumored the oilers wanted Murray.

I will get trashed for this but I was NOT a fan of the Yak selection either at the time and I believe that the top of that years draft will not rate well with other years. It wasn't a great year to have the NO. 1 overall pick. I have to wonder how much Galchenyuk played into YAK'S numbers in junior...I do belive though RNH will be a much better player long term than Landeskog..

In Yaks last Jr year. Galchenyuk barely played. 8f Galchenyuk had not of been injured for most of his draft year he likely would have been Selected 1st overall.

Galchenyuk is a beast. Lots of posters here and at Lowetides site wanted him.

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#76 MessyEH
July 20 2014, 08:09PM
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MessyEH wrote:

What have the players who "we should have picked" won.

(Seguin was in the press box, or stapled to the bench for his cup.)

Mario "Freaking" lemieux did not change the fortunes of the Penguins over night. Neither did Crosby. To say we choose the wrong players because the team wasn't successful, is ignoring just how lousy a team the Oilers iced.

No matter how great some of you think Seguin and company are. They wouldn't have prevented DD' s implosion. Gagner's injury, or the weak defense we had.

Checked out this link. It explains how Yakupov and Nugent were cheated of there Calder trophies. If they played in the media concentrated east they would have won.

http://thehockeywriters.com/was-nail-yakupov-robbed-of-a-calder-trophy-nod/

this link. sorry.

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#77 The Last Big Bear
July 20 2014, 10:12PM
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I'm honestly surprised by the questions being asked. This is basically the Kevin Lowe quesionnaire.

1) Do you score loads of goals? What about fancy moves? The Oilers need more fancy moves.

2) Can you play in the NHL immediately? I mean like RIGHT NOW?? For some completely insane reason, this is really important to us.

3) Getting back to goals, can you score loads of goals??

4) To completely change the subject, can you score loads of power play goals? What about fancy moves on the PP?

------- Basically every top draft pick can produce offence. That's how you got there.

But it takes until question 5 before we even peripherally address the real needs of the Oilers. And even then the answer is in the context of generating offence.

How is their defensive play? Do they backcheck harder than they forecheck? Can they kill penalties? How is their physical play? I'm real happy you can use your size to protect the puck, but can you use your size to f***ing smash guys? Protect the front of the net? Dump guys in board battles? (pro-tip: nobody is drafting 6'3"+ 220lb+ players in the hopes that someday they can 'protect the puck' like Cam Neely.)

Defensive play is literally not mentioned even once in this comparison.

I don't know who is better, I've seen Draisaitl play once, and I've seen Bennett in the Flames development camp scrimmages, and that's it.

But to me, the only question is: Who has the most complete game?

Because that's what the Oilers are missing.

Just my take.

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#78 Scott
July 21 2014, 12:27AM
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Spydyr wrote:

I don't have a data base just over 40 years of watching and playing hockey.

What happens IMO when a player is rushed :

All players picked high in the draft have exceptional skill with the puck.They have grown up having the puck most of the time and when the don't have it their superior skill allows them to get it back fairly easily.

The do not learn how to play defensively and play without the puck since they have it or want it back.

They do not learn how to play as much without the puck, things like picking up the right man defensively.

Now if that skill player goes from Junior to the NHL without learning a 200 foot game they have to survive on their skill.

When the player goes pro the skill level has a huge jump.Unless they are elite in their skill level most player in the NHL are close to their skill level.They can no longer control the game as they once did and the don't have a complete game to fall back on.

Now letting a player play at a lower level like AHL they have time to develop the skills necessary without the puck before playing in the best league in the world.

Your opinion is shot down by your own reasoning because chances are that the high skill/high draft pick is still going to be better than most in the AHL - so he'll still be A) playing with the puck, or B) in the process getting it back, so why would his 200ft game improve at that level? Base on your theory, it won't (see Justin Schultz).

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#79 MessyEH
July 21 2014, 03:20AM
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Why would we send any of our players to the AHL, we have the best 2nd best AHL coach working with our players now.

The best being Todd Nelson.

I am so happy the Oilers retained Nelson.

I figure Lowe must have been watching the TSN (the Toronto shopping Network) and decided he needed all these surplus Marlies players and coaches. They were on clearance and Katz's kid thought Eakins hair was "$ ick! " #GarfieldsOilylitterbox

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#80 Spydyr
July 21 2014, 07:49AM
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Scott wrote:

Your opinion is shot down by your own reasoning because chances are that the high skill/high draft pick is still going to be better than most in the AHL - so he'll still be A) playing with the puck, or B) in the process getting it back, so why would his 200ft game improve at that level? Base on your theory, it won't (see Justin Schultz).

Send Justin Schultz back to OKC without Nuge ,Ebs and Hall.Lets see if he does as good.

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#81 scott
July 21 2014, 08:22AM
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Spydyr wrote:

Send Justin Schultz back to OKC without Nuge ,Ebs and Hall.Lets see if he does as good.

Touche'

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#82 Spydyr
July 21 2014, 08:28AM
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scott wrote:

Touche'

One more thing.If you think Justin Schultz has a 200ft game.......

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#83 scott cochrane
July 21 2014, 08:48AM
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Spydyr wrote:

One more thing.If you think Justin Schultz has a 200ft game.......

I do not - and that was my point. Do high end prospects really gain in their 200ft game by going to the A as was suggested in your post? Based on the last one we sent there - Justin Schultz - they do not.

I thing all great players adapt to the NHL regardless of their route. And good players; some adjust and some don't. We'll see if Leon is good or great soon enough..

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#84 Spydyr
July 21 2014, 09:15AM
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scott cochrane wrote:

I do not - and that was my point. Do high end prospects really gain in their 200ft game by going to the A as was suggested in your post? Based on the last one we sent there - Justin Schultz - they do not.

I thing all great players adapt to the NHL regardless of their route. And good players; some adjust and some don't. We'll see if Leon is good or great soon enough..

Justin Schultz spent a few months in OKC surrounded by NHL players not the best example.

My example would be Gagner.He might have learned the game better with some AHL seasoning.It has worked for the Wings for twenty some years now.

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#85 Britts94
July 22 2014, 12:06AM
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I laughed out loud at #11

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#86 Jay
July 25 2014, 12:51PM
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OiledStatGuy wrote:

Can someone point me to the research that clearly demonstrates that rushing a player to NHL is harmful.

And, can this research respond to the following:

* saying a player struggles who is D#0 or D#1 doesn't prove he'd be better after some maturing. * comparing with someone who breaks out after maturing in minors doesn't prove he wouldn't have done same if in bigs from start. * saying injuries are too big a risk then were is data that this isn't a problem in AHL

e.g. some say Gagner rushed and it harmed him. I've looked at numbers of forwards plus two positions in draft and minus two positions in draft beside Gagner. JVR, Turris, Voracek, and Hamill. Gagner has more points, typically more each season. Guess Hamill will be having a big breakout this year with all that maturing.

So were is the large dataset that proves this point?

p.s. I don't think LD will be on team this year because by eye last year he isn't ready, whereas even lighter RNH clearly had the dzone acumen.

It's difficult to tell the difference between an overrated prospect that was drafted higher than he should have been and a good young player ruined by the team that developed him. Would Gilbert Brule be an impact NHL forward today if he was drafted by Detroit instead of Columbus? Or traded to Chicago instead of Edmonton? Or was he always a bust who just looked better than he was due to his team and linemates in junior? I think that if a guy looks to be better than the guys fighting for his position in camp then he should win it and if he doesn't he shouldn't. Age shouldn't really be a part of that equasion because if a guy is playing better than a guy ten years older than him in camp that illustrates the irrelevence of age right there. I don't beleive that MacT is done this summer and I think there will be a move made that will make a lot of this 'is Leon D good enough for #2C this season?' talk moot. Barring that though, if he's playing better than Arcobello in the preseason then he should get that number 2 job in the regs. Otherwise the team is handicapping itself just to satisfy some one else's idead of how in a hypothetical situation things should be done. Best case scenario though is a big trade sometime before October.

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#87 tlaneil
July 26 2014, 01:56AM
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Not that I am defending any decisions of Kline or MacT but one thing that never seems to come up in the discussions is the fact that these kids need to be placed the right system for them. The Lions personality may be best suited to develop In oil town. Being in Africa and out of touch with the kids I don't know but IMO this is something that the GM on all teams should be watching. How many kids did not work out on their original team but excelled after being traded.

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#88 Basshole39
July 26 2014, 09:09AM
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Clyde wrote:

I guess you could look up who won the rookie of the year over rnh and check out how seguin did in awards voting compared to hall last year.

Go back Calgary ya troll! Nuge scored the same amount of points in 20 less games! how is that not getting ripped off? Oh +/- the thing that gets better when you play on a better team, yeah he must be better all around! Watch Nuge play, his D is pretty sound and his offensive upside is way higher than Landeskogs!

Hall got shafted again by the hockey writers (ass)ociation. He has been the best left wing in the league the last 2 years. Last year he averaged just as many PPG as Seguin on a bottom dwelling team!

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#89 Basshole39
July 26 2014, 09:24AM
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Spydyr wrote:

I don't have a data base just over 40 years of watching and playing hockey.

What happens IMO when a player is rushed :

All players picked high in the draft have exceptional skill with the puck.They have grown up having the puck most of the time and when the don't have it their superior skill allows them to get it back fairly easily.

The do not learn how to play defensively and play without the puck since they have it or want it back.

They do not learn how to play as much without the puck, things like picking up the right man defensively.

Now if that skill player goes from Junior to the NHL without learning a 200 foot game they have to survive on their skill.

When the player goes pro the skill level has a huge jump.Unless they are elite in their skill level most player in the NHL are close to their skill level.They can no longer control the game as they once did and the don't have a complete game to fall back on.

Now letting a player play at a lower level like AHL they have time to develop the skills necessary without the puck before playing in the best league in the world.

The only thing that determines if you can/should make the jump to the NHL is if you cannot benefit by playing against boys anymore. All great players need to be challenged or there is risk of their talent becoming stagnant/not progressing. To become better one must be put against greater challenges!

COMPETITION!!!!!

Let the player dictate if he is ready and stop with the bull of all players benefit by maturing against easier competition! some do, some don't!

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