KATZ GROUP: BLUFFING WITH 2/7 OFFSUIT

Eight years ago, during the first NHL lockout (how pathetic is it that there is a 1st and 2nd lockout, ugh) poker was on every sports channel. At first fans complained about it, but within month many started watching and playing online. Poker was the new "sport" of choice, but even the most uneducated poker fan realized quickly that you folded 2-7 offsuit, unless you were the big blind and could check to see the flop.

Right now the Katz Group and the City are playing heads up, and the Katz Group lost a big hand yesterday. Their appearance in Seattle followed by a head-scratching press release was akin to going all in with a 2-7 offsuit.

I’m perplexed as to why the Katz Group thought they could use relocating to Seattle as a bargaining chip. The blatant facts are that relocation is NOT an option, even when their current lease expires at the end of the 2014 season.

Here is why relocation won’t happen.

  • Gary Bettman admitted he made a mistake allowing Winnipeg and Quebec to relocate, and since then Bettman has proven he’d rather have the league own a team and have them lose $20 million a year than relocate. He won’t let one of his profitable teams up and leave.
     
  • The Oilers aren’t losing money. They are profitable, despite being the only team in the NHL that doesn’t get non game-night revenue.
     
  • Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, NYI and many other teams have been losing money for years. There is zero chance Bettman allows the Oilers to jump the queue and relocate before those other money-losing franchises. A source within the NHL, who didn’t want to be named for obvious reasons, told me this morning, "There is no way the league would let them move. They will try to help facilitate a deal to get a new arena, but relocation is not an option at this point."
     
  • The rink in Seattle won’t be ready for at least three years, likely four. So the Oilers would play at Key Arena for two years, before becoming a tenant in the new rink in Seattle. The WHL team vacated Key Arena because it’s a terrible hockey venue, but the Oilers will play there for two years? No chance.
     
  • The Oilers are the #1 team in Edmonton, but in Seattle they’d be #5 behind the Seahawks, Mariners, Sounders (soccer) and the new NBA team. Seattle will be a viable option for a team that is losing money, but it would be a backwards move for the Katz Group to relocate there.
     
  • The Oilers are amongst the top-five most expensive ticket prices in the league, but that won’t be the case in Seattle. The San Jose Sharks sell out every game, but they lost money last year because they can’t charge premium prices. Below is the Sharks seating chart.


You can get a ticket in the 2nd deck for $46/game in San Jose. If you want a pair of individual seats in Edmonton in the same section it will cost you $135.50 each (based on LA Kings game on October 16th from Oilers website). It is basic supply and demand. There are more rabid fans in Canada, thus higher ticket prices. Everyone knows that ticket prices in Seattle will not be as expensive as Edmonton.

OTHER OPTIONS

(This is the inside of the Sprint Center in Kansas City. Looks great, but not good enough to attract an NHL team.)

The Katz Group sent out this statement yesterday. It came from Executive Vice President, Bob Black: 

"I can confirm that Daryl Katz, Patrick LaForge, Kevin Lowe and others from the Oilers leadership group are in Seattle for meetings and to attend the Seahawks game. 

We remain committed to working with City Administration to achieve a deal commensurate with what Winnipeg and Pittsburgh have done to sustain the NHL in those small markets. If we can achieve such a deal, the Oilers will remain in Edmonton and we can get on with the important work of developing the new arena and investing in the continued revitalization of Edmonton’s downtown core.

Nonetheless, and as the City of Edmonton is aware, the Katz Group has been listening to proposals from a number of potential NHL markets for some time. After more than four years of trying to secure an arena deal and with less than 24 months remaining on the Oilers’ lease at Rexall Place, this is only prudent and should come as no surprise.

We are extremely grateful to Oilers’ fans for their patience and loyalty as we work through this process towards what we sincerely hope will be a long and successful future for the Oilers in Edmonton. We have no further comment on the status of our discussions with other markets at this time."

Who are these potential NHL markets? Let’s assume they are talking about Kansas City, Seattle and Quebec City.

I’ve already broken down why they won’t go to Seattle, but if Kansas City was such a great market how come Atlanta moved to Winnipeg? Moving the Oilers to KC is as likely as the NHL lockout ending this week.

The 2011 census had Edmonton (metropolitan) population 6th highest in Canada at 1.5 million. Quebec City was ranked 7th with 765,700. Will fans in Quebec who average $22/hour pay the same as fans in Alberta who average $27/hour? I doubt it.

At this point relocation should not even be discussed, because it isn’t going to happen. Any fan, blogger or media person who suggests it is a realistic possibility isn’t paying attention.

The League won’t allow it to happen, and the Oilers don’t want to move.

The major problem I see now is that the Katz Group hasn’t made it clear what they want. Instead of wasting everyone’s time, and creating more disdain from their fans, the Katz Group needs to realize that unsubstantiated threats of a possible move won’t help them at the negotiating table.

We know the league won’t let them move, and we know that deep down the Oilers don’t want to move.

It was a bad bluff and you lost the hand, but the Katz Group still has lots of chips on the table. When you get caught bluffing in poker you take your lumps and move on.

There is nothing wrong with bluffing, it’s part of poker. Unfortunately it has also become a staple in most arena negotiations, and usually it only serves to hinder and delay the process. Remember when Mario Lemieux was flying to Vegas, Kansas City, Houston and Oklahoma City, well months later at the groundbreaking ceremony for their new rink he admitted what most already knew.

"It (relocating) wasn’t an option. We had to do a few things to put pressure on the city and the state, but our goal was to remain here in Pittsburgh all the way. Those trips to Kansas City and Vegas and other cities was just to go and have a nice dinner, and come back."

During those negotiations some fans despised Lemieux, but once a deal was completed Lemieux was labeled the saviour of the franchise.

The Oilers aren’t moving. It is a non-issue, regardless of trips to Seattle, Kansas City or Quebec.

WHAT NOW

Just because relocation isn’t a serious option, doesn’t mean the city should just sit back and do nothing. According to councillor Bryan Anderson, "There has been no forward progress since last October."

This project needs to get done. There has to be an equal amount of motivation from both sides to accomplish this. The city needs a new facility and the Oilers want one, and we all recognize this. Neither wants to pay for all of it, so find a middle ground by looking at the intricacies of deals in Pittsburgh and Winnipeg and find out what worked and what didn’t work.

The Katz Group’s "tell" was easy to spot because we’ve seen it before during previous arena negotiations, but now it’s time to deal a new hand and get back in the game.

  • paul wodehouse

    It’s largely accepted that an arena solution needs to be addressed with or without the Oilers.

    Perhaps it makes sense at this point for the City to open some discussions with Northlands to see what a deal may look like with them.

    The only way the Oilers could hope this bluff gets taken seriously is to know that Edmonton, without a new arena, would be off the NHL map.

    Edmonton has options, even if they are considered lesser options. My bet is that if the City started to look at a deal with Northlands, the Katz group would snap to attention pretty quickly.

  • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

    Bob Black, as a professional is a lawyer, but his title in the Katz Group is Exec. VP of the Edmonton Arena Corp.

    I wonder how much pressure is put on him to move this process along, and how much native knowledge he has about the NHL, specifically their stance on relocation.

    Blatant, poor moves like this come from frustration and desperation. The only real question I have is; who and where are his advisers?

  • I'm a Scientist!

    The 2011 census had Edmonton (metropolitan) population 6th highest in Canada at 1.5 million. Quebec City was ranked 7th with 765,700. Will fans in Quebec who average $22/hour pay the same as fans in Alberta who average $27/hour? I doubt it.

    I agree with everything in this article except the above statement. Ticket prices will be lower, but so will operating costs. The average wage of everyone maintaining the site would be lower, so the overhead would be lower. This argument doesn’t work here.

    The rest of the points are completely valid though. The chance that a team in Edmonton would move to Quebec before the american teams is just stupid.

    I am tired of all the pissing matches that are occuring around me these days. All sides of all of these issues need to grow up.

    • Jason Gregor

      You think that paying the 50-75 staff members less money will equal out to have 17,000 fans paying less money every night?

      Interesting, I’d have to look up if employees in Montreal make less.

    • book¡e

      I imagine that the wages of the non-hockey playing employees on the team are not a major cost in terms of overall costs, however, ticket sales and advertising sales in the local region are the majority of the cost.

      Unless Hall is willing to accept a 15% cut to pay in Quebec, Jason’s point is valid.

      • I'm a Scientist!

        This is true, however the cost of all operations will be cheaper. Where there is a lower average wage, there is a lower cost of living. The cost of advertising will be cheaper. The cost of the guy running the zamboni, will be cheaper. The cost of the physio therapist, will be cheaper.

        Might be a smaller percentage of the total costs however it all adds up and it can still be reflected in the bottom line (i.e. ticket price:profit ratio).

        I don’t want to argue about it – too much fighting these days, it really isn’t worth it.

  • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

    The Seattle comparison really is funny, since the city of Seattle put up so much less of the money for that arena than Edmonton has already agreed to.

    The fact is that the city of Edmonton made a horrible deal in comparison to what other cities have done. How can they give up even more than the worse deal ever?

    I also find the notion that casino revenues would be devoted to the project offensive. That would represent a direct transfer of funding from community leagues (and hence rinks), preschools, kids sports, etc. to subsidize an already profitable industry. It would literally be stealing from children.

    Only a person who lives in a vacuum would think this is a good idea.

    I also am offended by the cretins on this board who think this is about capitalism or the free market. There is nothing “free” about government subsidizing profitable industries. I have no problem with Katz making money but he should do it on the basis of a free exchange of goods and services for money. By achieving government subsidies through extortion he’s no better than a gangster and he should be treated as such.

    • Gkpoil

      Casino revenues would still go to charity… The owner of the casino only gets a percentage. For slots it’s like 15% charity, 15% owner and 70% government. Table games are a little different though. Unless you’re a native owner then you are the charity and you get both halves (eg. enoch)

  • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

    Hey Woodguy,

    The other thing Katz would lose by relocating to Seattle or another major American market is leverage.

    Try using the fans love for their hockey team against one of the major American municipalities and see how far that flies.

    Katz knows all of this. Like the Lemieux trips Gregor mentions, these veiled threats are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Council needs to hold firm (actually they need to back out, but I don’t see that happening).

  • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

    Why do you say the city isn’t willing to pay for all of the arena? The old deal already had the city paying for everything.

    There isn’t any more room for compromise on the city’s part. They’ve already given away the farm.

    This is take it or leave it time.

    If the Oilers take the deal. That’s fine. If they leave. That’s fine too.

  • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

    Gregor said:

    The Oilers aren’t losing money. They are profitable, despite being the only team in the NHL that doesn’t get non game-night revenue.

    They get game-night revenue. All of the gate and 50% of the parking. They don’t get concessions, but a chunk of that goes to charity.

    The issue here is that when you own the arena, you don’t have to include the game night revenue as HHR, which means Katz is taking a much bigger hit on his ticket sales.

    This could be resolved by offering to sell Rexall to Katz at the end of the lease.

    The Oilers are the #1 team in Edmonton, but in Seattle they’d be #5 behind the Seahawks, Mariners, Sounders (soccer) and the new NBA team. Seattle will be a viable option for a team that is losing money, but it would be a backwards move for the Katz Group to relocate there.

    Why does no one ever include the Huskies, who are either 1st or 2nd on this list?

    Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, NYI and many other teams have been losing money for years. Despite poor attendance, Florida makes a profit on their arena deal, see Elliotte Friedman’s article from earlier today.

    But your overall gist is correct, Jason.

    I would love to see the City structure a deal similar to the one Seattle has for their new arena. Put Katz on the hook for the arena AND some of the infrastructure.

    Bob Black said…

    After more than four years of trying to secure an arena deal and with less than 24 months remaining on the Oilers’ lease at Rexall Place, this is only prudent and should come as no surprise.

    Because signing a new lease or buying the building aren’t in the realm of possibilities? This is merely more pathetic posturing.

  • book¡e

    Don’t forget the most important point in terms of SEA/EDM.

    In Edmonton Katz get 335 dates to sell in the new rink. 45 dates for hockey and up to 290 dates of non-HRR of revenue.

    In Seattle they would be a tenant in the new rink and *might* get some revenue on the non-hockey nights, and certainly no where near 290 dates as Chris Hansen will want that revenue to service his $200MM debt on the arena.

    Most NHL teams that lose money on hockey, make lots of money on non-hockey events at the arenas.

    Elliott Freidman says that even FLA is profitable as an organization because of non-HRR.

    Only NYI and EDM do not control their rinks in the NHL.

    No way on earth Katz walks from an arena he controls to just be a tenant in Seattle.

    72o indeed.

    • DSF

      A few points:

      1) Katz also owns the Edmonton Oil Kings and you can be damn sure they won’t be playing at Northlands if Katz is operating a new arena. so your estimation of non-HRR dates is inaccurate.

      2) You are assuming Katz would be nothing more than a tenant in Seattle when you have no basis to make that assumption. Chris Hansen is paying $275 million as his share of the arena but he is not doing it alone. Steve Ballmer of Microsoft and the Nordstrom department store family are part of his investment group.
      Katz could easily brought in as a partner and own a portion of the arena, the NBA franchise and, of course, an NHL team.

      3) The funding being provided by the City of Seattle and the county is $200 million only if Hansen lands BOTH an NBA team and an NHL team.
      That funding is reduced by $80 million if an NHL team is not part of the equation.

      4) $80 million dollars is a substantial motivator for Hansen to land an NHL team sooner rather than later and he could use any portion of it to lure an NHL team to Seattle.

      5) I have no doubt that Edmonton WITH a new arena is a better deal for Katz but assuming Katz will be nothing more than a tenant in Seattle and will have to forego all non-HRR is not knowable at this time since there are many ways he could structure a deal in Seattle.

      • 1) Katz also owns the Edmonton Oil Kings and you can be damn sure they won’t be playing at Northlands if Katz is operating a new arena. so your estimation of non-HRR dates is inaccurate.

        My estimate of non-HRR is inaccurate how?

        WHL games are non-HRR and KG gets the revenues.

        2) You are assuming Katz would be nothing more than a tenant in Seattle when you have no basis to make that assumption. Chris Hansen is paying $275 million as his share of the arena but he is not doing it alone. Steve Ballmer of Microsoft and the Nordstrom department store family are part of his investment group. Katz could easily brought in as a partner and own a portion of the arena, the NBA franchise and, of course, an NHL team.

        Sooo Katz buys in for how much? He is getting the Edmonton arena for $0 down, so SEA is a worse deal.

        Katz gets 92% of the dates at the new rink.

        No way on gods green earth does he get anywhere near that in SEA.

        Hansen is investing real $ and would want the commensurate non-NBA dates to service his debt.

        3) The funding being provided by the City of Seattle and the county is $200 million only if Hansen lands BOTH an NBA team and an NHL team. That funding is reduced by $80 million if an NHL team is not part of the equation.

        Relevance?

        Hey look, a municipality that knows how to put conditions on its investment! Wish they were here.

        4) $80 million dollars is a substantial motivator for Hansen to land an NHL team sooner rather than later and he could use any portion of it to lure an NHL team to Seattle.

        Still doesn’t give Katz more non-HRR dates than he gets here. Its not close.

        5) I have no doubt that Edmonton WITH a new arena is a better deal for Katz but assuming Katz will be nothing more than a tenant in Seattle and will have to forego all non-HRR is not knowable at this time since there are many ways he could structure a deal in Seattle.

        Its true that things are not knowable, and I’m glad you admitted that WITH an arena its not close.

        That being said, Hansen has to service his debt and given that he’s the lead investor he will take most of the non-NHL/NBA dates.

        Its just common sense.

        The deal that Katz refused is far, far superior than any tenancy agreement that can come from any rink.

        Seattle is a bluff, and not a very good one.

        • DSF

          1) You said “290 dates of non-HRR revenue”. That is wrong.

          2) You have no idea what a Hansen-Katz deal would look like.

          3) $80 million has lots of relevance. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.

          4) You’re just focused on event nights because that’s all Edmonton has to offer. Seattle has a much larger and wealthier corporate community and that’s where the real revenue is. The Pacific Northwest is also a much larger television market than northern Alberta and that’s where a lot more money is.

          5) What debt is Hansen servicing? We have no idea what the terms of his partnership are. He is a hedge fund owner and early investor in Facebook and his partners are a Microsoft principal and the family behind the Nordstrom department store chain which is BTW now moving into Canada with a flagship store on Robson Street. These are very serious players who could stroke a cheque for the entire amount if they choose to. Your favourite son Garry Gregg is a peon next to these guys.

          Since you have no idea what Katz might work out with the Seattle group, your conclusions are based on smoke…and a whole lot of silly assumptions.

          • book¡e

            1) You said “290 dates of non-HRR revenue”. That is wrong.

            Correct, if you take away the assumption of addressing this question in single years or, alternatively, if you assume infinitesimally temporally short events, you could literally have an infinite number of non-HRR revenue events.

            2) You have no idea what a Hansen-Katz deal would look like.

            True, it might be worth Trillions to Katz, truly Trillions!!!

            3) $80 million has lots of relevance. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.

            False, it’s basically meaningless if you consider the trillions of $$’s in the deal discussed above.

            4) You’re just focused on event nights because that’s all Edmonton has to offer. Seattle has a much larger and wealthier corporate community and that’s where the real revenue is. The Pacific Northwest is also a much larger television market than northern Alberta and that’s where a lot more money is.

            True – in fact, it is ridiculous to even be discussing Seattle when London, England is clearly a better fit with their 80 million + British market and the worlds largest number of head offices. Also, they have that big stadium that seats like 100,000 people or something.

            5) What debt is Hansen servicing? …

            I still can’t believe that Hansen played the Wayne Gretzky retirement night. Maybe that’s why Gretzky hates Edmonton soo much and wants the Oilers to move to Seattle and join the NFL…. Wait, what do you mean that was the Moffits? What the hell is a Moffit?

            Since you have no idea what Katz might work out with the Seattle group, your conclusions are based on smoke…and a whole lot of silly assumptions.

            Silly assumptions like opportunity cost and logic – for all you know Seattle might be willing to hire the Moffits for Trillions of dollars to hire Daryl Katz’ kid as part of the deal. You just don’t know – its all just smoke and mirrors – speaking of smoke, do I smell toast burning???

          • 1) You said “290 dates of non-HRR revenue”. That is wrong.

            Show me why.

            My math is 365 days a year – 45 NHL dates – 30 dates for city use = 290 dates.

            Oil Kings are non-HRR, they are not NHL revenue

            2) You have no idea what a Hansen-Katz deal would look like.

            Yes, but to suggest that Hansen gives up anything near what CoE is giving up is beyond the pale.

            3) $80 million has lots of relevance. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.

            Over 35 years its $2.28MM/yr and you know that isn’t earmarked all for the NHL team. *yawn*

            4) You’re just focused on event nights because that’s all Edmonton has to offer. Seattle has a much larger and wealthier corporate community and that’s where the real revenue is. The Pacific Northwest is also a much larger television market than northern Alberta and that’s where a lot more money is.

            Edmonton has the 6th highest average ticket price in the NHL and the new Edmonton rink will seat close to what the Seattle rink will..

            There will be more boxes as well.

            While Seattle has a much larger corporate base, the hockey team is still fighting with NFL, MLB, NCAA Football, NCAA Basketball and Soccer for their share.

            In Edmonton the Oilers are the only game in town.

            Every talking head from Toronto to LA agrees that the sponsorship + ticket revenue streams are greater in Edmonton.

            5) What debt is Hansen servicing? We have no idea what the terms of his partnership are. He is a hedge fund owner and early investor in Facebook and his partners are a Microsoft principal and the family behind the Nordstrom department store chain which is BTW now moving into Canada with a flagship store on Robson Street. These are very serious players who could stroke a cheque for the entire amount if they choose to. Your favourite son Garry Gregg is a peon next to these guys.

            So Hansen pulled the cash out of his couch?

            By your statement I can see you don’t understand large $ deals, but they are rarely done in cash, even by people who have cash. Interest expense is tax deductible and there are a myriad of other advantages as well.

            Since you have no idea what Katz might work out with the Seattle group, your conclusions are based on smoke…and a whole lot of silly assumptions.

            No.

            You are arguing that Katz can get a similar deal in Seattle.

            That is simply untrue by any deal that you can cook up in your head (well…maybe not your head)

            Hansen isn’t giving Katz all the non-NBA nights.

            That is the only deal that could come close to the deal he is being offered by the city.

            You can try to cloud it over, but common sense tells us its not even close.

          • DSF

            You keep bleating about whether or not Katz could get a better deal in Seattle with a new arena or in Edmonton with a new arena.

            Ive said repeatedly that I agree.

            The point you keep ignoring is that Edmonton does NOT have a deal for a new arena.

            If it did, Katz would not have been in Seattle and you wouldn’t have your knickers in a twist.

            Suggesting Katz can’t find a better deal than the one he has in the current arena is the issue at the moment since no other option currently exists.

            Just because Edmonton has great hockey fans doesn’t mean the status quo can’t easily be topped.

          • Jason Gregor

            You do know that Hansen doesn’t have a completed deal in Seattle either. They still need to get approval from the King County Council, who will be doing an environmental review, that could take up to a year.

            Also he has to secure the rights to an NBA team as well.

            Remember council voted 10-3 in favour of funding for our arena last October. Nothing has happened since. Suggesting the Seattle deal is a guarantee is like saying ours was last October. Sadly, not the case.

      • DSF

        Valid points – but you forget that Katz would have to (at least on the outside) attempt to find a local buyer prior to moving the team… I’m sure Gregor’s source would be pretty reliable and considering (as much as it pains me to say something good about him) Bettman’s stance on keeping the Canadian content of the NHL consistent – I don’t think much of what you’re speculating is viable.

        • DSF

          Yeah.

          It would seem that the Mayor has put October 17th as his line in the sand to have a deal done so, if it isn’t, the next move I would anticipate is Katz offer to sell the team to local interests.

          Who knows who that might be?

          • Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

            You are correct, it doesn’t have to be a local buyer. A Vancouver guy bought the Dallas Stars, Tom Gaglardi of the Sandman Hotels. If the NHL decided that Katz couldn’t transfer the Oilers to another city, perhaps another rich owner would step forward. See attached about the new Dallas Stars’ owner:

            http://stars.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=83147. Sounds like a good owner. Have we heard anything similar from Katz?

            I believe the City of Edmonton Council requires some outside expertise in the business affairs of the NHL to determine what is the right business deal for the City and the fans. Paula Simmonds made some very good points, even though some posters may disagree. Maybe the City should take over the responsibility to design and build the arena, rather than Katz. Katz isn’t prepared to put his purported $100 million up front, wants a casino licence (which won’t contribute similar dollars per the Pittsburgh model), wants an adjoining Oiler hockey training facility on expensive City land. Wants, wants, wants.

            Time for the City to pause and rethink the deal. 30 years is a long time for the City to live with a bad arrangement.

          • Quicksilver ballet

            Doubtful at best… Last year – the Oilers brought Katz (I’m assuming before tax) income of $18 million… With the current CBA focusing on cutting player salaries – I would assume, with everything being equal – that number would grow slightly as his margins would increase…

            What motivation would he have to sell a profitable organization?? I doubt he gets fed up, packs up his marbles and marches home if he doesn’t get a new arena…

            He really doesn’t have too much leverage to negotiate with anyone in regards to moving the team… He has one of the few NHL organizations that makes money… He has a team that has filled a 16,500 arena for three years straight… He has a market that would fill an 18,000 – 19,000 arena as well…

            Simply put – the city has to simply stand its ground and continue to negotiate in good faith… As I’ve said before – $225 million for a $450 million facility works for me considering the benefits the arena would bring… I’d even go as far as to supporting council on building the facility themselves and having Katz sign on as a tenant… That would be an uber-agressive move on the city’s part – but I’m sure that move alone would bring Katz to the table – should he want a building where he can dictate the who’s, where’s and how’s…

  • Quicksilver ballet

    This latest tactic must have NHL hockey saddling up next to the likes of Micheal Largue or Donald King.

    Nothing says we’re flying by the seat of our pants like this latest epic fail from Katz. Edmontonians are fortunate that they’re not in Seattle representing the city.

  • paul wodehouse

    RIGHT ON . Plus the Key arena is a dump to say the least . That wouldn’t entice anyone in Seattle . I also said yesterday it was a bluff and if Katz starts playing that game the people in Edmonton need to boycot Rexall Drugs . Hit him in the one place that hurts . I bet of the 100,000 plus fans the Oilers have many go to Rexall . Pull that away and it would get his attention .