GDB 49.0: DEBATE IN DALLAS

Four years ago the Taylor vs. Tyler debate was just beginning. For the next six months both sides debated the merits of Hall and Seguin. The Oilers chose Hall and the Bruins happily settled for Seguin. Four years later both have developed into dynamic offensive players and both of them still have room to improve.

The debate isn’t as intense as it was four years ago, likely because both are producing and both fan bases are happy with the player the drafted, or in Boston’s case the players they received when they traded Seguin, but their individual success means the debate will continue and maybe even intensify in the future.

They play different positions, and in their first three years they played for teams at opposite end of the standings spectrum. Hall was saddled with the pressure of being the face of a franchise, while Seguin got his feet wet being surrounded by great players and winning a Stanley Cup.

When Seguin was traded to Dallas this past summer he was thrust into a situation similar to Hall. Both of them will now be looked upon to lead their respective franchises to the playoffs, and in the incredibly competitive western conference that won’t be an easy task.

This year their offensive totals are very close.

Hall has 18 goals and 43 points in 41 games.
Seguin has 21 goals and 41 points in 43 games.

Seguin is playing with Olympian Jamie Benn and Russian man-child Valeri Nichushkin. They’ve become a very dangerous line, and I’m curious to see Lindy Ruff will match the Seguin line against Hall’s line tonight. Ruff would get a better matchup playing Seguin vs. the Arcobello line; however, many coaches know that their best players like the challenge of playing against the other team’s top line. 

I’d argue that the Seguin trio is just as much of a challenge as facing Sidney Crosby’s line, and a bit different due to the size of Benn and Nichushkin.

Hall and Seguin will forever be linked together, and four years later I still think Hall is slightly ahead of Seguin, but only by the slimmest of margins. 

LINEUP

Hall-RNH-Gagner
Yakupov-Arcobello-Eberle
Perron-Gordon-Hemsky
Jones-Smyth-Gazdic

Ference-J.Schultz
Marincin-Petry
Belov-N.Schultz

Bryzgalov

No reason to change the forward lines. Keep them together and try to build some chemistry. I understand why coaches changes lines frequently, even the top teams do, but I’d keep the top-three the same for a few more games just to see what happens. 

Corey Potter is back skating, and the only player you might take out for a game is N.Schultz because he’s playing the right side. I wouldn’t do it, but that seems like the only option on the blueline.

QUICK HITS

  • The dilemma facing Craig MacTavish over the next eight months will be deciding how he wants to construct his blueline. Martin Marincin has looked good, albeit in only ten games, and if he keeps playing well do the Oilers plan to have him in their top-six next season along with J.Schultz, Jeff Petry and possibly Darnell Nurse?

    That would be three D-men in their top-six with less than 130 NHL games, and Petry will have less than 240 games under his skates. I don’t see them succeeding with that much inexperience on the blueline. For me, Nurse will need to be incredibly good to last more than nine games. Inserting more youth into the lineup won’t help. If all four of them make it, that means two of them will be paired together. I know Marincin and Petry have played together the past few games, but it is asking a lot of Marincin to be a top-four D-man next year.

    I would bring ensure I have at least three proven, steady veteran D-men at the start of next season, and if the young kids play well enough to keep them, then at least you will have some insurance when they hit a rough patch. I’d err on side of caution and start with more veterans and less youth on the blueline next October.
     

  • I agree with Willis that Petry is a competent NHL D-man, but my issue with him is his consistency at key times of the game. For instance during the 5-on-3 vs. Chicago. Petry has control of the puck, but can’t clear the zone. Keith keeps in it, and seconds later it is in the back of the net. Petry has to get that puck out of the zone. We don’t know if the Hawks could have regrouped, re-entered the zone and scored, but not getting the puck out allowed them to stay set up.

    Petry is a competent D-man on a bad hockey team, but I’m not sold he is a guy you build around. He might be a good complementary player, but I don’t see him as a backbone defender.
     

  • Ales Hemsky will be traded. Why would he re-sign in Edmonton to be the #3 RW. By March 5th, Eberle and Yakupov will still be on the team, so the Oilers won’t be able to guarantee him a spot in their top-six at that time. They could roll the dice and keep him with the hope they move one of the other two, because their value is higher, before free agency starts and convince Hemsky to stay, but I doubt that happens. So rather than lose him for nothing, he will be dealt before the deadline.

    There is a large contingent of fans and media who don’t like Hemsky, but you can’t overlook his skill. How many forwards can walk around Duncan Keith and score like he did on Sunday? Of course you’d like to see that more often, but that play is why opposing GMs will still be intrigued by Hemsky. Hemsky has basically been playing in a 3rd line role this year, but he has the skill to be a top-six forward. He is still fearless on the ice, and I suspect he will have success in a new situation.

    The question is what kind of return will Hemsky fetch? Teams have always overpaid for players at the deadline. An aging Robyn Regehr got Buffalo two 2nd rounders last year. The Sabres also received a first rounder for Paul Gaustad a few years ago. Every GM is willing to pay something different. MacTavish must be hoping Hemsky plays well at the Olympics, because a good showing there will increase his value significantly. 

TONIGHT…..

GAME DAY PREDICTION: Hall and Seguin each finish with two points, but the Oilers lose a close game 5-4.

OBVIOUS GAME DAY PREDICTION: Martin Marincin has another strong game giving hope to beleaguered Oiler fans that in the future the blueline will eventually improve.

NOT-SO-OBVIOUS GAME DAY PREDICTION: Many of the Nation readers will send emails to Kate Beckinsale’s fanmail account after noticing she isn’t wearing a ring in the above photo. Good luck fellas, if any of you get a response let me know, we will post it on the Nation. After the Oilers loss, many will numb the pain by watching Underworld.

RECENTLY BY JASON GREGOR 



    • Arius Mumin

      GIve it a break, or give me 8 reasons why Kevin Lowe should lose his job.

      You and the rest of the sad bandwagon jumpers have no base for your arguement, you’re just lower tier fans who needed an opinion and that was the most common and acceptable one.

      What tier do the fans that only see the Oilers on highlights fall into?

      Is it Kevin Lowe’s fault that Gagner needs 15 years to develop and can’t get right?

      Is it Kevin Lowe’s fault that Eakins is more concerned with Terry Jones health than the PP?

      Is it Kevin Lowe’s fault that the GMs around the league don’t want to trade with Oilers when it might stand to benefit them?

      Is it Kevin Lowe’s fault that Eberle is allowed to play like his dad owns the team?

      Kevin Lowe has the Oilers best interest in heart. It is not his fault that most of the fanbase that follows his team has very little individual thought when it comes to the Oilers. If Bob McMoses said it then it must be true.

      • Bucknuck

        Pretty sure this is tongue and cheek, folks. Anyone who has paid attention to the comments on this site knows that defending Lowe is currently out of fashion.

        I was satisified when Tambellini got the boot, and I will wait until the 20 game mark of next season to make up my mind about Eakins and MacT.

        If MacT/Eakins can’t get a winning record by that point, then Lowe, MacT, and Eakins should all go. Until then, I will enjoy the little victories (Pens), and hold down my bile when they stink (StL).

      • Word to the Bird

        Buddy, here are 8 reasons : 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 years.

        No, it’s not Lowe’s fault Gagner can’t play defense after all these years in the league. But Gagner is still here, getting rich.

        Count the coach’s, then count the GMs over the years KStupid has been running the show .

        Bucky and OwnGoal? What else needs to be said? KLowe’s boys!

        Public relations as a top corporate executive? “We have two types of fans; some we like, and some we don’t like so much.”

        Bro, we are talking loser here. Decent coattail riding DMan. Pathetic executive allowed to play with a toy that means a lot to Oiler fans and the city, but means Dick to the owner unless coin is involved.

        And he takes himself seriously which is really sad.

        • Arius Mumin

          I don’t know you-we’re not buddies.

          Which 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 years are those? Could you be a little more specific, please?……or maybe you suffer from numerical tourette.

          So you believe the Oilers(MacT and Lowe{of course}) can trade Gagner for another player: that could be of better use, but don’t because they overvalue Gagner, and are making the rest of the team and fanbase suffer because of the mancrush? If not, what is your point?

          Ok, I counted. What about them?

          Do you know exactly-what Bucky and OwnGoal job is? Do you know what their duties and input is? That is what needs to be said, as far as I’m concerned, if you are bringing them up. Tell me exactly what it is you don’t like about their doing?

          There is more then two types of fans. I, as some, don’t like the others, but there is no need to get into that.

          I believe you are scapegoating Kevin Lowe as a loser here, his resume says otherwise. The team shouldn’t mean that much to people, it is just a sports team. There is no way that the team should mean more to the fans than it does to Katz and Lowe. If your feelings keep getting hurt-don’t care or find another team to cheer for. No need to lose sleep over it.

          Don’t be sad about Kevin Lowe, I’m sure he don’t give #@$% about you.

          • Bryzarro World

            Buddy, don’t take Buddy literally.

            The 8 years of missing playoffs. Should be easy enough to figure out. Ask your Buddy.

            The Insiders said MacT wants a top 6forward, top 4 D, or starting Goalie. Overvalue? That explains the untradeable contract.

            Lowe’s resume? He had a good run in 2006, granted. But by his own admission, he is involved in every decision, otherwise, on. Gregor’s show, he would have said MacT makes player/roster decisions.

            Bucky and OwnGoal? Don’t know exactly what their roles are, but based on what I see as a cable subscriber, it’s clearly not working. And how do those Sycophants outlive so many head coach’s? Put forth a theory if you have one.

            Trust me, I lose no sleep.

            Time for bed, Harrison.

          • Arius Mumin

            Buddy, don’t take MacT and Lowe literally. The don’t go on T.V and radio so they tell you exactly what is going on with the team.

            Why weren’t the people complaining in years 5,6,7? Why all the sudden the Lowe push?

            Who are these insiders? People on T.V shows who need advertising money?

            Of course he is involved with every decision, he is the overseer. Just because he oversees Gagner play sh!ty defence, it doesn’t mean he told Gagner to play sh!tty defence.

            What exactly do you see on cable? What so you see that has you so sotrongly convinced? The theory could be simple-some ass.coaches are just head coach’s lackies. The make sure that the players are skating around pylons.

            Never said you lost sleep, dont know who Harrison is.

          • Reg Dunlop

            Hello Arius, This is your doctor. I know it’s been a struggle for you to adjust your new meds. It’s important to remember that being in a coma for 8 years will do that. Since narcism is a byproduct of such cerebral inactivity I recommend you take your Valium and run off to bed and leave this site for some more intelligent posters. PS We will increase your dosage to help with your grandiose personality.

          • Oilers4Ever

            Lol good call

            #1 – obvious, he led this team into needing to rebuild in the first place
            #2 – hired Tambi who failed in his role
            #3 – hired the scouting staff who has failed in every selection past 1st rnd
            #4 – insulted the fans by grouping them into tiers
            #5 – wrecking the Comrie for Perry trade by insisting Anaheim reimburse’s
            Comries signing bonus
            #6 – trading down to select Pouliot instead of taking Parise
            #7 – 3 playoff appearances in 14 years
            #8 – 8 years straight with no playoffs

            You’re turn, 8 reasons why he should keep his job

          • Arius Mumin

            #1. Lowe leading this team into a rebuild was something that was forced about him, it was not by choice.

            #2. Lowe hired Tambi to have a willing puppet. The team was going into a rebuild, and to be honest Lowe and Co, probably decided to tank on purpose. Remember, it is hard to convince players to come here via trade and/or free agency.

            #3. Please, list the selections you are refering to, I am not aware of what you were expecting or promised.

            #4. All fanbases have tiers, if someone just came to that realization and got insulted-I’m sorry to hear that.

            #5. Lowe has the Oilers best interest at heart, it is easy to judge in hindsight. Remember, the Oilers were going under at that time and that money could have been a need more so than the player returning.

            #6. Once again, hindsight. If you are blaming, the scouting staff for the past 1st rnd, then: you can’t blame Lowe for Pouliot, he wasn’t on the scouting staff, right?

            #7. What is your point?

            #8. *refer to #7

          • Mason Storm

            If Lowe had the Oilers best interests at heart. He would step aside and let someone else run this team. The on ice product proves that this team is going nowhere. They are around .500 against non-playoff teams and likely around .125 against playoff teams. He’s changed Gms, coaches, players, trainers and even brought in a dance crew too distract the fans, and they suck too. What other proof do you need that Lowe has to go.

          • Rob...

            “#5. Lowe has the Oilers best interest at heart, it is easy to judge in hindsight. Remember, the Oilers were going under at that time and that money could have been a need more so than the player returning.”

            I love #5. I’ve considered using it in the past. BTW, god forbid, if you ever need open heart surgery I’d be willing to fix you right up. I’ve no experience as a surgeon, but I will have your best interests at heart (full pun intended). Besides, given the wage I’d get and a boss that will never fire me, what do “I” have to lose?

          • Bryzarro World

            1/2. The Comrie incident and the non trade for Perry.

            3. The Burke incidents
            4. The talking down to the fans.
            5. The Souray incident.
            6. The not making the playoffs for 8 freaking years.
            7. Constantly getting bent over in trades and letting players walk for nothing.
            8. Not stepping back and letting a GM do their job after he turned this team into an abortion on ice as the GM…

            I have at least 2 dozen more. You can stfu and go away now…

          • Arius Mumin

            You are delusional.

            With fans like you, it is no wonder that the Oilers are able to take so much while giving so little. Katz knows this, Lowe knows it, and most of the players know it as well. Drinks up.

          • Bryzarro World

            You ask for reasons and received many. Now you call others delusional. Do you know where you are right now? Lay off the pills….

            I can’t stand Lowe, I gave up season tickets that were in the family for over 20 years a few years back and don’t watch any games. How am I drinking anything you moron? I think you the one pounding back the Black Labels..

            Idiot. …

          • Arius Mumin

            You didn’t gave up season tickets, and you never had season tickets.

            If you don’t watch any games: why the #@% do you care and how the #@$% do you have bases for you genius opinions.?

          • Zarny

            It is obvious that you are delusional.If you don’t watch games why do you post? You make no sense Arius. It is obvious from your inflammatory posts that the only reason you post here is to seek attention. Get a life.

          • Bryzarro World

            I see you have no friends so I’ll explain it to you…

            I don’t need to prove anything to a little online loser. We had tickets since ’82, how have you supported the team since then you little maggot?

            Facts aren’t opinions, they’re facts and look at the teams record since lowe has been GM. ..

            What do I need to watch that hasn’t happened in the last 8-15 years?

            .

          • Admiral Ackbar

            You’re actually calling a guy out on Oilers Nation? How old are you? How are you better than the guy you’re calling out if you’re talking about fighting him at Northgate?

            It’s a blog. He’s allowed to attack your credibility. He doesn’t even need a good reason. What makes you think you deserve respect here? If a blog can offend you this much, what other ridiculousness are you capable of?

            Quit acting like a child and stick to the subject.

            Remove the entire coaching staff, top to bottom. Don’t just fire Lowe, humiliate him publicly.

          • Bryzarro World

            Who said anything about fighting? I’m getting peppers at T&T.

            Take your pretentious attitude and leave alone. Just because you’re scared of everything doesn’t mean the rest of the world is.

          • Arius Mumin

            Because women are so much more personal than objective, tendencies that logically contradict one another are capable of getting on together within their circle of ideas: for they are accustomed to become enthusiastic for the representatives of these tendencies one after the other and to adopt their systems whiolesale: but they do so in such a way that there is always an unemployed spot where a new personality later gains ascendancy. It does perhaps happen that all the ideas in the head of an elderly woman consists of nothing but such unemployed spots.

          • Arius Mumin

            The superior spirit takes pleasure in the acts of tactleness, arrogance, even hostility perpetrated against him by ambitious youths; they are bad manners of fiery steeds who have as yet carried no rider and yet will long be proud to carry one.

  • Old Retired Guy (A.K.A. Die-Nasty)

    Hey Gregor,

    What’s the minimum trade value you accept for Hemsky before you consider resigning him?

    I would want at least a late first rounder, or an early second rounder combined with a mid-to-late second rounder

    Otherwise, sign him to a one or two year deal for 2 to 2.25 mil per and you have an affordable 3rd line right winger who can move up or play PP when required.

    (Assuming he wants to stay and he’ll take a hometown haircut)

  • smiliegirl15

    Gagner certainly doesn’t belong on the first line but I understand why they’ve got him up there. Everytime RNH made a beautiful pass, Gagner bobbled it and lost it. He’s new to that position so he deserves some rope there too but I am sick of Gagner and will be so very glad once he’s shipped out of town. I thought they should have kept Cogs and traded Gagner way back then.

    Put Gagner on the third line so maybe he can learn the position first and stop being such a liability. He’s a one trick pony at best.

  • Serious Gord

    Re: Tyler vs Taylor

    First I will state what my position was at the draft: I felt that the oil had no choice but to draft hall. No one could pick Seguin over him as hall was the two-time Mem Cup MVP.

    Had Lowe/tambo picked Seguin they likely would have been second-guessed long after both players were dead and buried (literally).

    I thought then that they were very very close in promise with Seguin having a slight advantage because in addition to being roughly equal in abilities he was a centre and almost a year younger.

    Today I think that they still are very much equals with Seguin being slightly better in shot and hockey IQ and 200ft play. And should they both stay healthy the debate will continue.

    The better “what if” is:

    Would both players be better today if they had been taken by opposite teams:

    Hall was and is a far better fit on Boston than he is here and a centre of Seguin s abilities are in acute demand while the bruins have a surplus at that position.

    Had that happened the oil IMO would likely have made the playoffs at least once by now and the bruins would have one more cup.

        • Zarny

          The cutoff date is usually middle of September ish so Hall would have been one of the older kids in the draft with a late ’91 birth date. Seguin is only 2.5 months younger though and there would have been plenty of kids younger than he in 2010.

          Could just be that if Hall was 2 months older he would have been in the 2009 class.

    • Bucknuck

      The Oil would not have made the playoffs in any of the last four years because they have never had the horses on Defense. They need the same thing they have needed since 2007, a competent Defense.

      Until they get that missing piece, they will not make the playoffs.

      Hall has single handedly won games, and I am sure Seguin has done the same thing. I can’t see having one over the other would be the magical ingredient.

      • Serious Gord

        Perhaps I overstate. With Seguin there would not have been a surplus on the wing; some pressure would have been taken off of gagner (I doubt he would have been traded) and Horcoff.

        • pkam

          Not sure what you are talking about. Hall is a LW and we never have surplus on LW, and we don’t even have any surplus on wings until we draft Yak. So how do you know 3 years down the road we will draft another wing.

          If you really want to use the surplus in wings as your argument, perhaps you can do it for Yak’s draft year. But it will be very lame for Hall’s draft year.

    • Jason Gregor

      Hall was and is a far better fit on Boston than he is here and a centre of Seguin s abilities are in acute demand while the bruins have a surplus at that position.

      Had that happened the oil IMO would likely have made the playoffs at least once by now and the bruins would have one more cup.

      Sequin is so good that he would have made the Oilers that much better defensively? Really? Please enlighten me how Seguin instead of Hall would have improved the Oilers enough to make the playoffs.

      They missed playoffs by 35 points Hall’s rookie season.
      They missed playoffs by 21 points in 2012.
      They missed playoffs by 10 points last year in only 48 games.

      Any suggestion that Seguin in place of Hall would have led to a playoff spot is purely laughable.

  • Alsker

    How about showcasing Gagner in thr press box and show re-runs of his 8 point night on the scoreboard.
    The Oilers should change there name to “Slump Busters”

  • Slapshot

    I just watched the recent episode of oil change ,were It shows what Eakins has painted on the dressing room walls, Chop Wood ,Carry Water ,WTF is that!!!! He redid the dressing room to put that up? He should’ve painted Play Hard,Lets Make the Playoffs,Lets reward our fans,after 7 years they deserve better. And they fired Kruger for Eakins,what a Joke!!!!

  • Hemmercules

    I haven’t been watching many games for obvious reasons. Tuned in tonight For the Dallas rivalry. Dallas goals 2 and 3 truly showed how horrific the oilers team defence really is. Soft soft goal followed by handing Benn a free goal on the pp, wide open. Even half decent teams prevent goals like those. Cue the comeback?

    • Young Oil

      Amen, let’s have something regarding the real problem!!!! Not interested in a stat biased article about Smid, let’s have a stat related article about ALL the blunders POHO has made in the last 8 years thats kept this over talented team in the bottom five!! This is eff’n ridiculous Get on that “bandwagon”!!! Is it a case of the Oilers bullying you writers too! Or do you like writing about the Oiler miseries?

  • Young Oil

    Debate on Hall vs. Seguin? Who cares? Look at the score after 1 period. 3-1 Dallas. There’s the answer to the debate? Dallas is a better team with a playoff chance. I agree with @Jason, how about an article on Burke vs. Lowe.

  • Robert (AKA Hockey Fan)

    How come that weak call on gagne was called, but the goalie interference on bryz and the boarding penalty against yak weren’t called? Same story in Chi town, some weak calls against and some questionable non calls for.

  • Robert (AKA Hockey Fan)

    President of Hockey Operations?? You could hire anybody, I mean literally anybody in the world for that position and this team couldn’t be worst than it is and has been. Seriously, pick some random African tribesman that’s never left his jungle tribe, make him POHO and this team would probably be better!! How on earth is KLowe still bloody getting paid by this team???

  • Robert (AKA Hockey Fan)

    Another defensive gem by Gagner, I am betting he is either a buyout at years end, trade and eating 1/2 his salary or trading for an even worse contract.