Monday Musings: NHL Debates and a special tribute

Thinker

The NHL released their top-100 players this past weekend, and when you release a list like this, it inevitably leads to debates. I think we can all agree the 100 players are exceptional, however, I was surprised by a few.

When I saw the list, I felt Pierre Pilote was the most glaring omission. Pilote was in incredible defender. He won the Norris Trophy in 1963, 1964 and 1965. He was the runner-up in 1962, 1966 and 1967. He was a dominant defender, and an very good puckmover. My late father, who didn’t talk about many players, always mentioned Pilote.

I believe many lean heavily on Cup rings when making player rankings, and while Pilote did win one, I don’t agree it is an accurate factor of individual play. Great teams win Cups. You can be an incredible player, but if you don’t have enough quality players around you, you will not win.

The biggest surprise for me was Jonathan Toews. Toews has one 70+ point season. He won the Selke Trophy (best defensive forward) once and the Conn Smyth (playoff MVP) in 2010. He has never finished in the top-three in Hart voting and has never been top-ten in scoring.

Toews is a highly competitive player. He is good in both ends of the ice, but he has never had a dominant offensive season. Patrice Bergeron and Pavel Datsyuk, players of his era, are also considered solid two-way players, and both won the Selke three times. When Datsyuk won the Selke in 2008 and 2009, he had 97 points both seasons. He was dominant in both ends of the ice.

Bergeron’s five best offensive seasons have been 73, 70, 68, 64 and 62 points. Toews’ five best have been 76, 69, 68,68 and 66. Very similar offensively and Bergeron is regarded just as highly defensively. I will say, I believe Toews is a better offensive player, but, for me, when I hear great two-way player I think of Datsyuk or Jari Kurri. Players who would put up huge offensive numbers, and were also very solid in the defensive zone.

I won’t downplay Toews’ ability. He is an excellent player, but playing in Chicago, winning three Stanley Cups and being marketed by the NHL constantly has led many to ranking his on-ice abilities higher than I see them.

Compare Toews to Evgeni Malkin. They have played during the exact same era.

Toews has played 687 regular season games. He has produced 260 goals, 332 assists and 592 points.

Malkin has played 691 regular season games. he has scored 317 goals, 497 assistts and 814 points.

Malkin has 222 more points in four more games played. 

They have both played 124 playoff games. Toews has 39-69-108, while Malkin has 48-81-129.

Malkin has won the Hart Trophy (NHL MVP), was runner-up twice, he’s won the Art Ross Trophy twice (NHL leading scorer), he won the Conn Smyth in 2009, and he’s won two Stanley Cups.

If Toews gets the nod because he has a third Stanley Cup, then one could argue Glenn Anderson should have been in the top-100 because he’s won six, is fourth all-time in playoff scoring and has 1099 career points.

The reason I don’t value Stanley Cups when evaluating individual play is because teams win the Stanley Cup. The majority of winners have some great players, of course, but if Connor McDavid doesn’t win a Stanley Cup will that make him less dominant? I don’t think so.

The NHL is about business, and while I have no doubt the voters did a significant amount of research and time submitting their lists, I believe the NHL wanted a few active players included, and right now the Chicago Blackhawks are the darling of the NHL. They should be — they are a great team — but the NHL loves including them in most big events.

QUICK HITS

Ali

  • I look forward to the year where no one analyzes the All-Star game. It doesn’t need to be fast-paced or intense. Young fans love it. As my buddy’s 10-year-old said to me, “How cool was it seeing Crosby and Ovechkin on the same team? I wonder how many goals they would score if they played together all season.” 

    The AS game is a reward for players and an opportunity for them to just have fun with no pressure. It’s a chance for young fans to see the best in the game in one place. We should just celebrate it for what it is, and not question whether this format or that format will make it better. They will never “make it better” for anyone who expects the game to be competitive.

  • Something to watch during the final 31 games of the season: The Oilers haven’t had two players finish in the top-10 in the same season since 1988/1989 when Jari Kurri, eighth with 102 points, and Jimmy Carson, ninth with 100 points, did it. Currently Connor McDavid leads the NHL in scoring while Leon Draisaitl is 12th with 46 points. Mark Schiefele is seventh with 48, so Draisaitl is close and if they remain on the same line there is a good chance Edmonton will have two players in the top-ten.
  • Arguably the biggest improvement for the Oilers has occurred on the road. The Oilers lead the NHL with 88 road goals. They used to be roadkill away from Edmonton, but even when Todd McLellan doesn’t have last change there are no glaring weaknesses for the opposition to expose.

    Their road success is even more impressive when you compare it to their play at home. They are 23rd in home goals, 61, and are +5 in GF/GA ratio, while they are +16 on the road. The Oilers only have four home games over the next 33 days. They play the Wild tomorrow, host Chicago on Feb 11th, Arizona on the 14th and Philadelphia on the 16th. If they continue their strong road play through February, then home ice advantage in the first round of the playoffs is a legitimate possibility.

  • Having teammates near the top of the scoring race is usually the norm. Out of the current top-24, only six are without a teammate: Brad Marchand, Vladimir Tarasenko, Cam Atkinson, Nikita Kucherov, Jakub Voracek and Jeff Carter. The Jets and Penguins have three players, while the Oilers, Blackhawks, Capitals, Sharks, Stars and Wild have two. 
  • Our Draft Kings Fantasy Hockey pool is back. You can enter our free one here. We have $1000 spread out among winners. And for you serious players you should enter our $75,000 pool, which  is only $4. You have to enter either one before 5 p.m. tomorrow. Good luck, do your research and win.
  • Today on my show on TSN 1260 I’m honouring the great John Short. John turns 80 tomorrow. Between 2-5 p.m. today we will have many guests from John’s past on the show today, including Wayne Gretzky, sharing some stories. This is a surprise and John has no idea we are doing it. John influenced many sports fans over the years, and told and wrote many outstanding stories. I believe he deserves a day to be honoured. If you have a fond memory of John, please email it to jgregor@tsn1260.ca so we can read on air or I can forward it to him. Thank you. 

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    • @Hallsy4

      I agree with you on Malkin over Toews. Actually, I think Malkin is a better individual player than Keith and Kane as well. Outside last season, would Kane even be close to on the list?

    • @Hallsy4

      Gregor, any thoughts on Bettman’s TV interview during the All star game about the Olympic issue? I was extremely annoyed by him, to say the least. To me, he kept whining and making excuses for the owners being difficult, then trying to say they were taking their various positions “for the fans”. The issues they are stuck on, when it comes to the Olympics, seem like they should be non-issues to me, or at least easily sorted out. I think fans as a whole want to see NHL players in the Olympics, and to give non-sense whining excuses, then say you’re doing it for the fans….. was just extremely offensive actually. I didn’t like the guy before, but I’ve never been so mad watching an interview in my life. I have no respect for Bettman whatsoever after that.

      • Jason Gregor

        Bettman rarely answers a question straight up. He answers without saying anything.

        This is all about money. The players are all on record saying they want to go, which of course they do, but they don’t pay for the insurance or travel.

        This is all about money and who pays for the travel and insurance now.

        • FISTO Siltanen

          Jason, I wouldn’t be surprised if the NHL wants a little more control and input into the tournament as well. Maybe ask that the IOC adopts NHL rules, I know they’ve been pushing for NHL rink dimensions in the past.

        • BlueHairedApe

          Not to play devils advocate but elaborate please. Why doesn’t Team Canada pay for the team’s travel like the rest of the athletes? How much is insurance and why don’t the players pay for it? If beer pong was a sport in the Olympics and I wanted to go compete, I would most likely have to pay my own insurance. I wouldn’t expect my employer to cover that.

          • slats-west

            The Olympics makes the most money off the gold winning hockey game …ticket prices highest and it’s the most watched event.

            The players are putting their career on the line playing because if they get injured they could lose their NHL career hence the need to insure themselves

            I’ve seen you play beer pong…your not that good!

          • Gkpoil

            In 2010 the insurance premium for the players was over $ 8 million. If you were a player would you want to fork out $400k (20 man roster)to play while the IOC makes a profit?

            • BlueHairedApe

              I see your point to a degree but I still don’t understand why the owners or the NHL should have to pay it either. It seems to me when the players decide willfully to go play for an entity outside of the NHL they should pay for their own insurance. In the whole scheme of things when most of these players earn over 6 million plus per year (24 million in 4 years between Olympics) the premium of 400 K isn’t all that significant. Most of them have cars that are worth as much.

      • FISTO Siltanen

        I’m with you on the Olympics debate. To me it is a non-starter that the NHL should even be considering pulling out like they have been since the Vancouver games ended.

        But the IOC isn’t endearing themselves to me either. Talking/bluffing about not paying these expenses is kind of ridiculous in its own sense. If I loan you my truck for your odd errands with the expectation you fill it up and maybe take it through a carwash after if it looks dirtier after you used it – essentially give it back in better shape than when you got it – I don’t think you should be surprised when you come back and ask for my truck and say that those aren’t expenses you are willing to pay anymore or you’d have to do it for everyone when you borrow their vehicle.

        It’s the cost of doing business. Maybe the IOC figures they’d make $30M on hockey with NHL players and $15M without. Fine. Their financial logic makes sense as they are spending $20M to earn the $30M and nothing to get the $15M.

        My prediction is the CBC and NBC pony up the money to the IOC to keep their prized tournament alive but the IOC quietly gives the money back in some rebates (instead of costing $1B – or whatever their deal is for – it’ll cost $990M to both networks).

    • Will

      When you make a list like that, you almost have to have surprising omissions, and surprising additions. Otherwise it’s a paint by numbers list that’s pretty boring. I don’t think this list simply valued cups, as evidence of Lindros. And saying Datsyuk was a better two way player is fine, as I’m pretty sure I saw his name on the list as well.

      Just like other players weren’t judged on cups alone, neither was Toews on offensive numbers. He not only won three cups, he captained the team to those wins. He was clutch in several key victories in every one of those cup runs.

      There was an Olympics where Babcock was asked which player he really liked, he said anyone playing with Toews.

      So while I agree that a cup win is a team achievement, I disagree it’s a surprise to see the Captain of a modern dynasty on the list of greatest 100 of all time.

    • freelancer

      It would be interesting to see the All Star game have a more kid friendly focus. If it’s going to be for kids then make it for kids. For starters don’t have Snoop Dog open like he did.

      But have competitions and things where kids who are there can be selected and go up against their heroes. How memorable would it be to see a kid make a break way against Price, or body check Lucic. Right now the NHL just seems confused with who they are targeting.

    • Heschultzhescores

      I was most surprised by Gretz resorting to an offside review in a allstar game…thought it was pretty desperate move. They didn’t call icings or penalties, but he uses a couple millimetres of ice against McD…pretty lame Gretz. The refs should have given Wayne two minutes for unsportsmanlike conduct…that would have been justice.

      • ubermiguel

        I hope you’re being sarcastic, because clearly it was done in to get a laugh. I think it might have even been a bit of a protest on Wayne’s part. It’s a stupid rule, what better way to point that out than to use it in the NHL’s offensive showcase, the All Star game?

        • Heschultzhescores

          I don’t think it was. I’m also surprised he’d pull that move and essentially go out of his way to have Crosby and OV beat McDavid. Every ounce of confidence counts when young guys are playing their idols. So, no, it was done to win, nothing else, in my opinion. .

      • OTOF2

        In hindsight that call ended up costing the Pacific team the game. I wonder if Gretz would have still called it knowing that McDavid being offside would end up costing his team the million dollar prize? I know these players are all rich but I think they each would have apreciatted their cut of the extra cash.

    • Ready to Win

      I think for all of the current players the question should have been asked “If they had a career ending injury tomorrow would you still put them on the list 10 years from now?”

      I think Toews would definitely fail this test.

    • Shredder

      “if Connor McDavid doesn’t win a Stanley Cup will that make him less dominant?”

      –THIS IS BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!

      JASON GREGOR SHOULD NEVER WRITE AGAIN FOR EVEN MENTIONING THIS!

      • alledmonton

        This is the same writer that thought Panarin was better than McDavid just because he played more games. McDavid was still the better player, and that’s what the award is for – “the best rookie”, not “the best rookie season”.

    • positivebrontefan

      My favorite part of these lists is the discussion it encourages, I for one am a huge Toews fan and I was not surprised to see him on the list based on him leading his team to greatness. A lot of that is because of him, and I think he deserves it.
      However, on every greatest list there will always be omissions, I definitely think that Malkin and Thorton were a couple of names that should be in there. The question is always, who do you take off. Maybe it is Toews, who would you rather build your team around though, Toews or Kane?

      In 50 years this list will be vastly different and I hope I’m around to watch a 70 year old Connor McDavid walk up on stage with Eight Stanley Cup Rings with Oilers engraved on the side of them.

      • ubermiguel

        Toews is one of those guys that makes you think hard about the intangibles in the game. Call those intangibles what you will: ferocity, compete, leadership, positioning, situational awareness, etc. I think he’s got all those in spades but how do you measure and compare that to Malkin’s numbers? Tough to do. All I know is if there’s a Game 7 or gold medal on the line I’ll take Toews over Malikn.

    • S cottV

      I think we don’t give enough credit for net offence and other intangibles like leadership, when it comes to comparisons with Toew’s among others.

      Toews has a career plus minus of +187.

      Malkin +69 – that’s a difference of 118 goals and would indicate some fluff offence, as compared to Toews.

      It’s very difficult to generate a high level of offence, while being very conscientious of the puck going into the wrong net. Something we haven’t seen much of these past 10 years, but getting a little better this year. One of the reasons why Eberle is struggling to score at prior levels.

      They both have the same number of Game Winning Goals…

      I wouldn’t under estimate leadership either.

      If I had a choice – to build a team around?

      Toews.

      Fluff offence is over rated.

      • TKB2677

        No doubt that Toews is a really good player. But at 28, turning 28 in April, his best years are getting close to behind him. In 687 games, he has 260 goals, 592 pts. With him turning 29 this year, unless he gets hurt, he’s probably good for 7 or 8 more years. But those will be declining years. 8 more seasons is another 656 games. So he has the potential to play over 1300 games. When his career is over, he might score over 400 goals but I doubt he scores over 1000 pts. So I have a hard time considering him to be 1 of the 100 best ever when he will probably play well over 1000 games but not score 1000 pts.

        Ray Ferraro played 1258 games. He scored 408 goals, 898 pts. I would see Toews having every similar numbers yet because Toews won 3 cups, he’s 1 of the 100 best? He’s been on a fantastic team with 2 players who were voted on the top 100 (Kane, Keith). Take Kane off the Hawks and replace him with say Eberle, does Toews have 3 cups? I doubt it, he probably doesn’t even have 1.

        • S cottV

          Player comparisons are difficult – with a host of different variables that come with relative experiences.

          I’ve always been about whatever it takes to win and would prefer to play with and or coach and or be a fan of – players that exude that quality.

          My point above – (no pun intended) is that points are overly calculated into the comparison. Sure – important, but – particularly in the case of Toews, you have an extraordinary set of direct and indirect intangibles. Toews exudes and causes others around him to do whatever it takes to win.

          Sure – it would be close, but I would take Toews over Malkin – if you went back a few years and needed to build a team around one or the other.

          Take Toews, surround him with complimentary players – playing a systematic two way style and go for a real good chance of winning most games 2 – 1 or 3 – 2.

          With Malkin – more a good chance to win 4 – 3.

          I like real good vs good chance to win.

          Some guys like the extra offence.

      • Jason Gregor

        “It’s very difficult to generate a high level of offence, while being very conscientious of the puck going into the wrong net. Something we haven’t seen much of these past 10 years, but getting a little better this year. One of the reasons why Eberle is struggling to score at prior levels.”

        As I pointed out. Datsyuk proved you can produce offence and win the Selke.

        You are buying into the mythical theory about you can’t score without being a defensive liability.

        As for as leadership, the problem is you nor I know how much leading he did? Many people areound the team say Brent Seabrook was just as important in the leadership department, but the reality is if Toews doesn’t have great players on the blueline they don’t win. Leadership is important but high-level skill is more important.

        Also game winning goals unless it is a one-goal game mean very little, and even then it has to be scored at a key time, not a the 2-0 goal in the first period and the game ends 2-1.

        Where did Malkin have fluff offence?

        • S cottV

          Well – it’s not like Toews is a slouch at producing offence and his points attached to a +187 is extremely impressive.

          Both have played for winning organizations, so plus minus is more relative or comparable than perhaps normal.

          No – I am far from the mythical theory you describe. I know full well you can score without being a defensive liability. It’s just harder, something you take into consideration when comparing Toews to Malkin.

          Malkin is a great player but a different player to that of Toews.

          With Toews – you take 2 steps forward – one step backward.

          With Malkin – you’re likely to take 2.5 steps forward and 2 steps backwards.

          One net forward step is better than a half net forward step. The difference is what I would describe as fluff.

          I propose we agree to disagree on leadership. Has to come from more than one guy, but I’m pretty sure Toews is on the upper end of the scale. No group does great things without big time leadership. The more high skill guys you got kicking around, the more leadership you better have, or things tend to go sideways.

        • slats-west

          A few thoughts on some interesting commentary on Toews …..but will have take issue with Gregor on this one

          – Toew’s got 108 Pts in 124 playoff games and he plays against the other teams best of best constantly… the guy comes to play and is a total Gamer. Ask the Sedins or Thornton about their playoff record?

          – I think Cups matter as they tend to follow great players thus 3 cups is a big deal and influenced the voting for sure

          – he was the youngest Captian ever (when put in) and then the youngest Captain to ever win the Conn Smythe. For you to say “it’s really Seabrook” not Toews then I guess you also think Joel Quenneville is moron coach for putting him in as captain as it should really be Seabrook ….although he just happens to be the 2nd most winning coach in NHL history next to Bowman

          – Toews has been captain at all levels of play as well

          – I did not look up his GWG but I would gather to say they were timely rather than flukey

          I disagree with the other poster’s comments on Malkin …. but I think Babcock’s comment is quite telling…. not sure I have heard the same about Malkin.

          Datsyuk belongs no question.

          • S cottV

            What do you disagree with re Malkin?

            As for Babcock – he is a money coach that cares about winning, not necessarily offence. Winning is the net of GF’s – GA’s. Babcock could care less if he won a ton of games 1-0 and a 2-1 or 3-2 result – would be not as good, but just fine.

            Crosby (pts 993,+163)- Toews (pts 592,+187)leading Team Canada as 1 and 2C is perfect for Babcock.

            If you offered Babcock – Malkin (pts 814,+69) in place of Toews in 2C – would he take it? I doubt it. I wouldn’t. Would JG?

            There is a reason why Babcock shies away from players like Hall and Subban and would take Toews over Malkin.

            I disagree with JG that there is no relationship between producing offence and where a given player is at on the defensive liability scale.

            Of course – there is a relationship.

            The guys that are in my mind – great players and more associated with winning teams, are they guys that produce significant offence without having to generally cheat toward it and or be selfish about it.

            There are many ways as a player to allow cheats or selfishness to enter your game to enhance offence.

            All players dip into the cheat / selfishness bucket from time to time.

            Toews – very rarely. I like that…

    • Heschultzhescores

      I’ve been saying this for years as well, if you want to have an interesting all-star game, then get the interesting guys in it. How about two min-games like we saw except you have the true superstars of the game play in one game and have the Lucic’s, Kassian’s, Cooke’s and Kadri’s of the league play each other in a second mini-game. I know which game would be more intense, that’s for sure. I don’t think you have the two winning teams play each other, too risky for the superstars, but at least one game would leave you unsure of what might happen next. Maybe the first all-star game brawl….lol. Just a thought, but why ignore these guys every year? They are Allstars at what they do too.

    • I always liked John. He spoke to his audience (us) and maintained the integrity of that relationship.

      I find in much of the new age work that sports journalists offer their target audience is other journalists (at best). I never got that condescending attitude from John. He maintained beauty status throughout his tenure.

      Kudos John and Happy Birthday!!

    • Shameless Plugger

      John Short was a staple on my radio every night when I went to bed as a kid. Any sport any time.

      The biggest thing that stuck out to me was he was always classy and nice. I never heard John get upset with a caller, not once, no matter how silly the question or suggestion. Happy birthday Mr Short. You are a legend to me.

    • Dreadguy

      I’m 43 now and I listened to John Short when I was a kid. I was always impressed how he treated people, their questions, and their opinions (aside from the odd hang-up when John was very annoyed). Additionally, even when it wasn’t kid’s night/hour, he always had time for younger callers. I thought of him sort of like the local Howie Meeker, or Don Cherry in that way. I remember being annoyed one time when he talked to a very young caller, for what seemed to my young brain as an eternity, about how many ways there are to tape a stick. In retrospect it’s a great memory and a testament to his commitment to his listeners. I met him a few times, as my dad was the PD of the station for some years during the Oilers dynasty. I always thought he looked way different than his voice sounded. Haha, kids!

    • Serious Gord

      Some that I think don’t belong:

      Delvecchio
      Sundin
      Henri Richard
      Denis Savard (perhaps)
      Darryl sittler
      Jean ratelle
      Jacques lemaire
      Bernie geoffrion
      Bucyk

      Some that maybe should be

      Pilote (as mentioned above)
      The sedins?
      Hawerchuk
      Goulet
      Probably a few granitic defensemen from back in the day.
      Malkin

      I sense there was more than a little bit of politics involved in the process

          • Spydyr

            NHL totals GP 1256 G 358 A 688 PTS 1046 Didn’t one of your Sedin suggestion just pass 1000 points with zero Cups?

            Mediocre players do not win eleven Cups.

            • Serious Gord

              So marcel dionne was a lesser player than the pocket?

              I heavily discount cup appearances. That way we would have kept undeserving HHOF nominees like gillies, duff and anderson out.

              The sedins are far better players than henri richard.

              “we need to key in on preventing Henri from scoring” said no NHL coach ever.

              and i said “relatively mediocre”. relative to the top 100 richard is mediocre.

            • S cottV

              I think SG has you on this one Spyder.

              He’s been posting more like Toews plays – lately.

              Pretty solid.

              I remember the pocket rocket well, growing up in Toronto and now as an old guy in Edmonton.

              Real good player who tried his @ss off – for sure.

              Obviously a lack of size, presence, ferocity and the level of skill – as compared to the older brother.

              Stanley Cups factor in, but in this case – I don’t think enough to get Henri into the Top 100.

              He contributed to but benefited from the dynasty and wasn’t a primary driver, from what I remember.

              The dynasty was tough on a young Leaf fan.

    • French Toast Mafia

      I think the olympics thing has much more to do with the IOC being the worst group of humans on the planet (outside of maybe FIFA) than anything else.

      They refuse to pay for anything and expect owners of a professional league to pay for their players to go to something that puts millions of dollars worth of players at risk (Tavares blowing out a knee in Sochi).. The IOC takes a lot of profit and just move from country to country basically making everyone “pay for the privilege” of hosting the olympics, or now in this case, the privilege of the NHL owners to pay millions of dollars to send their players.

      Up until a few years ago they used to demand that every country that hosted the olympics build new facilities no matter what, even if existing facilities were in place. There are also a lot of insurance and medical technicalities that hockey Canada or any group that wants to play in the olympics needs to deal with before going. I hope the NHL goes 100%, I went to every game that team Canada played in Sochi, but I can totally see where they are coming from as far as having to deal with the IOC.

    • Jehu23

      John Short was great on the air after the games… listening to his show completed the package of cheering for the Oilers during the dynasty. It was the message board of its time, and he was always willing to give a shot to first time callers and younger fans.

      I remember calling in during the cold war as a 16 year old and suggesting that the Red Army come over to NA and play in Hamilton. That way, the NHL would be able to balance the schedule with 2 home and 2 road games against everyone – and we would see who was really the best team out there. He gave the suggestion a thoughtful response, and wasn’t completely dismissive of what in retrospect was a pretty far fetched idea.

      I also clearly remember a discussion going the entire show one night about the 19 ways a runner can be called out coming home from 3rd. I managed to call in with one of the weird ones in the teens as we (pre-internet) crowd sourced the answers. It’s been nearly 30 years, but I still remember that night.

      John was always willing to listen, always willing to learn and understood the importance of the fan in the process of professional sport.

      Thanks John!

    • French Toast Mafia

      Also, how is Bob Gainey on the top 100 list…

      That’s like putting Mikael Backlund on the list. Gainey scored 500 points in 1100 games in the highest scoring period in NHL history.

      How does a guy that would have been his own teams 4th or 5th best player end up on a top 100 list when players like Malkin, Thornton, Iginla, and Sedin (all guys that have won scoring titles, MVPs,Conn Smyths etc..) be left off.

      Might as well put Draper on the list as well

      • Serious Gord

        Bob Gainey is regarded by many as the greatest defensive forward ever. His point totals obviously do not reflect that. (just as they don’t tell the whole story about a player like toews)

      • Druds

        Obviously you are maybe 15 years old…Gainey was one of the best players in the world in the 70’s , its not all about goals and assists.

        It asks for the top 100 players ….not top 100 point producers.

    • wiseguy

      Hearing John Short on the radio today was a great flashback. He sounds exactly the same as I remember from going to bed listening to Sports Night. He’s still sharp as a tack and has that bigger than life presence.

    • slats-west

      @ Gregor

      Sorry one more plug for Toews and your comment that forwards need dman to get them the puck… well the dmen don’t get the puck if you lose the draw

      Toews Career Regular season Faceoffs – 57.1%

      Toews Career Playoff season Faceoffs – 56.8% again facing the other teams best of best

    • Anton CP

      The entire current Hawks players are all bogus. I would say that Toews is maybe on the bubble to be the top 100 but I don’t think that Kane and Keith are both anywhere near to be the top 100.

      Malkin should be way ahead of both Toews and Kane, he was as big as toward Penguins and Crosby’s successes. He has a Hart, a Conn Smythe, and 2 championships. He also has 3 seasons with 100+ pts. Kane played more games than Malkin but he trails Malkin by almost 100 points (almost 50 goals more too).

      Keith is a very odd choice, yes he has won Norris twice but he is not as elite of a defender without Seabrook. I would rather have Chara ahead of Keith.

      Of course, some are having really good career but short of Stanley Cup ring like Joe Thornton and Jerome Iginla but that should not the the knock on their legacy. They are definitely better choice than Keith and Kane.

    • Anton CP

      About Olympics, it is too late to not letting NHL players to compete. Unless that the little gnome Bettman wants to face the international fallout and commit a global market suicide then he should stop players to play for the Olympics. First of all, the European players will not be taking this lightly. It is not like they cannot make the same money somewhere else and unless Bettman is bonehead enough to not to understand the patriotism of professional athletes then he has no right to be involved in any sport at all. The biggest global sport in the world, soccer, the players are all having higher commitment to their national team than their own club team. If Bettman is idiotic enough to stop players participate the Olympics that KHL will be laughing their ass of since it will be a chance to boost their international influences and able to attract more elite talents to play in their league.

      So, short answer is, Bettman will not stop players to participate in Olympics unless he is a moron.

    • camdog

      There’s great hockey players and their is good hockey players that played on great teams. If Joel Otto or Ryan Kesler were on the Montreal Canadiens dynasties of they 70’s they’d be on the top 100 list. Any player that is listed as a great two way player doesn’t make the top 100 if they play on a bad team.

    • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Can’t believe all the Hawks hate on here. We’ll just wait and see when another team wins 3 Cups with the same core players. It could be a while.

      The comparison between Toews and Malkin is what’s called a false dichotomy: when only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes.

      Consider the idea that Malkin probably deserves to be on the list and so does Toews. There’s 98 other players that could be considered before you get to a Malkin-Toews trade off.

      The thing about his winning the Conn Smythe (and it is the Conn Smythe, not Smyth, Gregor), is that he could have reasonably won it in any of the three years that the Hawks won the Cup.

      It just so happened that Kane and Keith played nearly perfect play-off series when they won, but it’s kind of like Gretzky “losing” the Conn Smythe to Messier in their first Cup–it could have just as easily have gone to Gretz.

      The real finals in 2015 was the Hawks-Ducks series, and it was Toews who scored two goals in game seven to put his team up by a pair in the first 12 minutes.

      Three Cups and a Conn Smythe candidate for each of them , the best forward in the 2010 Olympics (trophy), the Selke Trophy, the Messier Trophy for for Leadership.

      There must be something going on with Capt Serious.